More Dry Sump

[James Waltman]

This goes with the dry sump thread that is now closed.
See it here (http://fsae.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=763607348&f=125607348&m=3446023614&p=1)

The other day we realized that our F2 oil pan already had the tabs cut off the bottom. So the picture I posted earlier on the other thread doesn't do our new pan justice. On the left is an unmodified F3 pan. Center is our F2 pan with the lower tabs cut off (same basic pan). On the right is our new dry sump pan.

Does everyone already cut of those tabs?
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/SharedPictures/oils_pans_F3_F2mod_V35.JPG

James Waltman
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[James Waltman]

This goes with the dry sump thread that is now closed.
See it here (http://fsae.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=763607348&f=125607348&m=3446023614&p=1)

The other day we realized that our F2 oil pan already had the tabs cut off the bottom. So the picture I posted earlier on the other thread doesn't do our new pan justice. On the left is an unmodified F3 pan. Center is our F2 pan with the lower tabs cut off (same basic pan). On the right is our new dry sump pan.

Does everyone already cut of those tabs?
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/SharedPictures/oils_pans_F3_F2mod_V35.JPG

James Waltman
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[Nashco]

I'm (slowly) working on designing a dry sump setup for our engine, it is a fairly daunting task due to the details, but I guess that's why it interests me so much. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

James, did you weigh the difference between the stock pan and the new one? Would you mind sharing? You also said you had pics of how you routed your lines and modified the internals.

Have you guys figured out what to use for a pump yet? I've talked with a couple pump suppliers, and it seems the best option is to run a two stage scavenge and use the stock pressure pump. One recommended driving the scavenge pump where the water pump is and to use an electric water pump, but I don't know we're willing to go that route.

Using a dry sump sure does pose some unique packaging issues; if you do it right, there's several gains to be made, but you have to do it right!http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bryce

[Max_camber_gain]

hi all,

Please excuse my ignorance... I am merely a chassis guy... but how exactly does a dry sump system work? so far I have got -
* stick on an obscenely(sp) short sump with lots of machining in it...
* get a pump to pump out all the oil that falls into it from the return lines or 'holes' in the block (you talk about twin even triple stage pumps... what type of pumps are these?)
* So how is a vaccuum developed in the crank case by this? - as all the oil flows back into the sump doesn't it?
*what type of resivoir system is needed for the pump?
*Anything else that I have missed?

thanks for bearing with me... I have looked at the potential CG drop, and like what I see...

MCG

[James Waltman]

The pans are all on engines right now so I can't get a weight. I don't think that we really saved any weight with the new pan. Overall the system adds several pounds to the car – pumps, plumbing, and our alternator. We mounted to the front of the engine and run it off of a belt system. That made it necessary to ditch the stock charging system. We are running two scavenge pumps and the stock pressure pump.

One of the pictures on the other dry sump topic gives a general idea of the external plumbing. Travis hijacked my login and offered to post those pictures of the internals. If you want better pictures of the internals contact me off list and I'll see what I can do.

Check out Razor Performance (http://www.razorperformance.com/info.htm)for the basics on how a system works.

Scott Ellis gets credit for the pulley system and sweet new cover. Mounting brackets were done by Mike Waggoner.
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/SharedPictures/Dyno%20Alternator%20and%20Oil%20pump%20%232.jpg

James Waltman
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[Max_camber_gain]

so the pumps that are used are the gear type (with two meshing gears in a housing). Is that right? and a typical setup for SAE would probably be 3 stage (two pickups from the sump and a high pressure from the resivoir). Is that right?

Cheers,
MCG

[Nashco]

I'm trying to avoid any major engine changes, something similar to Lawrence Tech's setup is what I've been thinking about.

http://ltufsae.nx-tech.com/gallery/albums/2003Team/DC00576.jpg

By using the stock charging system and cover, we would be able to save expense, keep the weight down, and keep the CG as low as possible. I also think that I could make this system fit into our current chassis to use it for testing, which would be a very nice benefit since the '05 car is a long ways from being ready for testing. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I really like the oil pan setup Pace Products makes for their bike systems, unfortunately they don't currently make any setups for our engines, only bigger ones.

http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/dss/pics/blackbird%20dss%20kit.jpg

I'm hoping the new pan will weigh about the same as the stock pan, but it definitely has the potential to weigh more, when going for something like the Pace Products pan.

Thanks for the info James, you've got an email on the way.

Bryce

[vinHonda]

We run a very light weight, reliable, two stage pump off the water pump shaft. Some machining is required to adapt all the parts, but the PACE products pump is nice, compact and light weight. Our own custom oil filter adapter gets rid of the stock cooler weight, and the pan is nicely machined to bring the motor down A LOT (close to 3 inches). I'd say the whole system: pan, oil filter adapter, pumps, solid lines, brackets and oil tank will all weight the same as the savings from removing the stock pan, stock oil cooler, and stock water pump. More oil though = tad bit more weight.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[Sam]

So Vinh, do you run a separate oil cooler or none at all???

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[vinHonda]

None at all.

I'd post pics of our light weight, compact system....but i dunno how!

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[Nashco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vinHonda:
We run a very light weight, reliable, two stage pump off the water pump shaft. Some machining is required to adapt all the parts, but the PACE products pump is nice, compact and light weight. Our own custom oil filter adapter gets rid of the stock cooler weight, and the pan is nicely machined to bring the motor down A LOT (close to 3 inches). I'd say the whole system: pan, oil filter adapter, pumps, solid lines, brackets and oil tank will all weight the same as the savings from removing the stock pan, stock oil cooler, and stock water pump. More oil though = tad bit more weight.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, Vinh, what did you do with the water pump? The stock F4 pump is ridiculously light, I don't think we could possibly lose weight off that. If you're running an electric pump, are you varying pump speed with engine speed or running constant draw?

From the pic on your website, it looks like you guys are running about 1:4 crank/pump ratio. Pace told me their pumps are fine to 6k rpm, any reason you're not aiming for maximum pump rpm?

I've thought about ditching the stock oil cooler, but I'm paranoid about the repercussions. On one hand, the coolant temps will drop, but on the other the oil temps are unregulated. I figured it would take a lot of testing to figure out which is the lesser of two evils...oil cooler or not. I sure would like to get rid of that oil cooler and extra couple of lines, packaging would be prettier if nothing else.http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Have you guys monitored oil temps Vinh?

I'm hoping that with a properly designed system, we shouldn't need more than an extra pint or so, maybe a quart.

Thanks for the info guys, this is very informative...a few hours here is equal to many hours on the phone and searching the net!http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bryce

[RacingManiac]

And Vinh's teammate will help him out with the pic....well sort of. I don't have enough of engine's pic being not a engine guy....

http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2003-11-11/1790961-RacingManiaca.jpg
http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2003-11-11/1790961-RacingManiacb.jpg
http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2003-11-11/1790970-RacingManiacd.jpg

This is the setup as existed on 2003's car I think, I can't really find more pic of it on my HDD. Can't really see the pump installation too clearly, but this can show the depth(height) of the pan has been shaved quite a bit to allow for that lowering of the motor. The last pic show the oil tank and overflow setip.....which was slightly changed afterward with problem of oil spitting out the hole on the overflow can testing....

I believe the setup will be change a bit more still for 04, but the idea is the same.

2nd Year Monkey @ UofT Racing
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[vinHonda]

This is last years design....which is no where near optimal. The new pan is 1 piece with all pickups machined into it. Oil adapater is even smaller this year w/o running a line to the pan; the pan will run straight to the oil tank. The pics show the nice sexy PACE pump.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[vinHonda]

Electric H20 pump. Constant draw. Very light. Do lots of testing to ensure oil temp stays low. Real-time monitor it, or tell your drivers to ALWAYS watch the oil temp readout! Test, test, test.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[DoItDoug]

Virginia Tech runs a crank driven, belt drive, 3 stage sump off the clutch side of an F4i. Very efficient and extremely lightweight. Let's us keep the alternator in place and drop that CG VERY low...

Doug Temple
'01-'04 VT FSAE
www.vtmotorsports.com (http://www.vtmotorsports.com)

[Bulldog R]

i havent read through the original postings on the dry sumps, but has anyone thrown around the idea of designing the oil pan on an f4i to be able to lower the mounting in the chassis with out the need to use a dry sump system? Basically make the pan thinner but maintaining the correct amount of oil, incorporating baffles or something to keep the oil wear it needs to be?? I understand the need for the dry sump for more than mounting purposes, but for maintain engine protection while cornering. Howeever we are limited in resources and time to develop a reliable dry sump so are seeking other means if any exist.

[Nashco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vinHonda:
Electric H20 pump. Constant draw. Very light. Do lots of testing to ensure oil temp stays low. Real-time monitor it, or tell your drivers to ALWAYS watch the oil temp readout! Test, test, test.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An electric pump lighter than the stock pump, or just light? Which engine are you using? I think I've sneezed things heavier than the F4 water pump, hard to believe it could be any lighter. I have been avoiding going to any additional electric load as our charging system is already too heavily taxed.

Thanks for the pictures guys.

Bryce

[Nashco]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DoItDoug:
Virginia Tech runs a crank driven, belt drive, 3 stage sump off the clutch side of an F4i. Very efficient and extremely lightweight. Let's us keep the alternator in place and drop that CG VERY low...

Doug Temple
'01-'04 VT FSAE
http://www.vtmotorsports.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, once I saw the clutch mechanism on the F4, I decided to focus on the alternator side. The packaging seemed much tighter there than it was on the flywheel/stator side. Props to the guy who had the guts to design it around the clutch!

Bryce

[DoItDoug]

Well, I'm the only one in the shop and can't get the car on stands to give you a good shot of the pump, but here's the belt drive setup...

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/dtemple/us/CLASS%20STUFF/formula/DSC00010.JPG

I wanna see more of these at comp this year! It make's an amazing difference having all that weight so low...

Doug Temple
'01-'04 VT FSAE
www.vtmotorsports.com (http://www.vtmotorsports.com)

[Ben Beacock]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bulldog R:
i havent read through the original postings on the dry sumps, but has anyone thrown around the idea of designing the oil pan on an f4i to be able to lower the mounting in the chassis with out the need to use a dry sump system? Basically make the pan thinner but maintaining the correct amount of oil, incorporating baffles or something to keep the oil wear it needs to be?? I understand the need for the dry sump for more than mounting purposes, but for maintain engine protection while cornering. Howeever we are limited in resources and time to develop a reliable dry sump so are seeking other means if any exist.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're doing that this year with a GSXR. We're keeping the stock pan but modifying it to be shorter with baffles. We also have to make a new pickup tube. I think it makes an engine CG difference of about 60mm

Ben Beacock
Co-Manager
2004 Gryphon Racing - University of Guelph (http://www.soe.uoguelph.ca/uogracing)