Extension of legs past front wheels

[Disco]

Hello All,
Extending from the question about what teams are running what wheelbase. I'm just wondering, for a teams wheelbase, how far the drivers legs extend past the extremities of the front wheels?

Obviously there is a desire to shorten the wheelbase, but this can cause the drivers legs to extend past the wheels quite a long way. Can anyone tell the negative effect this has, if any??

Also, I heard a rumour that SAE were considering making a rule that the drivers legs could not extend past the front wheels. Has anyone else ehard this?
Cheers
Steve

[Disco]

Hello All,
Extending from the question about what teams are running what wheelbase. I'm just wondering, for a teams wheelbase, how far the drivers legs extend past the extremities of the front wheels?

Obviously there is a desire to shorten the wheelbase, but this can cause the drivers legs to extend past the wheels quite a long way. Can anyone tell the negative effect this has, if any??

Also, I heard a rumour that SAE were considering making a rule that the drivers legs could not extend past the front wheels. Has anyone else ehard this?
Cheers
Steve

[Bob Wright]

dont go too short in the wheelbase unless you can get your cg height to wheelbase ratio down as well. there are a few short wheelbase cars around that look like the drivers have a bit of trouble with pitch weight transfer. (I think the Tokyo car was trying to kill the tokyo drivers (great car as it was)). Pic the f/r weight distribution you want, package the rear of the car as tight as you can, scale changes in mass distrbution around your car based on what you know about your last car, and the drivers position with regard to the wheelbase will sort itself out. DONT pic a wheelbase and compromise basic dynamics around it, it has to work right for the driver first.

cheers,
ps hows RMIT going? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Bob Wright
Monash University
Australia

[Disco]

Thanks for that Bob. RMIT's going well. We have our design freeze in a week and a bit which we look set to meet. Heard you guys have started manufacture, how far into it are you? When do you think you'll have a car done?
Cheers
Steve

[Scott Wordley]

Bob's been hard at work on building the chassis and suspension. Front chassis and suspension pickup points are finished, diff box and rear pickups just require finish welds. Engine plates still to do. Pull rods just need to be cooked. Exhaust has just been retuned on the dyno with the new one about to be built. Intake, throttle body, restrictor, steering, bellcranks, fuel tank and radiator are all well underway. New wheel rims should be finished soon, 2001 centres are still good (ask Wollongong). The first of our new wing moulds are also finished so we may have a flap done to bring to Adelaide. Unlike most teams we have bugger all manufacturing facilities so we have to start early to get it done. Plus we're also building our 2004 car this year so we can't afford to slack off. Should start building the chassis for that one once we get back from Adelaide. Should be special.

Hey did you guys used to run Honda F3s? Want to sell them? We might be in the market.

Regards,

Scott Wordley & Roan Lyddy Meaney
Monash FSAE Wingmen
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[Disco]

Sounds like your well on your way. It's a pity about the lack of manufacturing equipment, must mean you have to spend a fortune on getting stuff done??
In regards to the engine, unfortunately we only have one CBR600. We used it in 2000 and rebuilt it again for last years comp. Plus the 2002 car is the only one we still have together and running (we'll see how long that lasts with this years budget), so unfortunately we can't sell it. I believe wollongong might have few motors, could try asking fergus if the want to sell any?
Cheers
Steve

[Scott Wordley]

Cool.

We don;t have money to pay people to make things, we have to settle for driving an hour and back down to TAFE in Frankston for the 8 or so hours a week when we are allowed to use their machines. Wish we had facilities like you guys and Swinburne.

We are getting a mill and lathe for our workshop at uni but the OH&S is an absolute nightmare. We are slowly getting through it but will be a month or more before we get it finshed.

Have any other teams done Safe Work Procedures/Instructions or Risk Assements for Mills/Lathes/Drills/Grinders etc? Would really appreciate it if anyone had safety materials they could share.

PS the feet behind front axle centre line rule will not be coming in. Bit of a storm in a tea cup started by the Poms who wanted to run their cars in club events (this is a prerequistite apparently)

Regards,

Scott Wordley & Roan Lyddy Meaney
Monash FSAE Wingmen
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[imajerk]

I know a company that could make a FSAE chassis in 1 day. Make engine plates/sump half shafts, intake/exhaust... and everything else in another 2 weeks. The only thing they wont do is bodywork. Cost varies depending on how advanced the car is, and of course if there are shop drawings or make to fit.

The only problem is money. The reality is that most FSAE teams don't have any due to lack of University support – and little sponsorship/own money. It's difficult to blame University's outright though as only 1 university a year will get the spoils, and the probability of that happening is low at best.

The problem with this is that as an FSAE team approaches a supplier or sponsor – and the FSAE bitches about making things cheaper or free etc, that supplier is less likely to help in the future as there's no money to be made (unless of course that team keeps in regular contact with them, and show some sort of results).

I'd like to see FSAE teams just accepting the cost of manufacture and forking out money. To do this I'd like to see FSAE change into either a Formula Ford or Formula Holden style car (chassis wise) and allow a larger restrictor (25mm?). This would allow for a car that might have the ability to race against real FF/FH cars and attract real sponsorship dollars as those cars can be raced – or sold to race in a competitive series. And for the annual competition race to be held on a permanent circuit instead of following a sea of bright orange cones.

This would increase the quality of FSAE cars dramatically (they are practically already FF, and in some cases better), and allow for more analysis of component design to induce refinement. Can you image the 2005 Monash FSAE car winning a FF race? I can. And, if the cars where sold each year, University's would become manufacturers in their own right, and would have a monopoly over their spare parts etc.

To cut a longer story short – FSAE has to change to become commercially viable – once that happens we will have more money to do as we like – and if you are part of a rubbish FSAE team, that will reflect poorly on yourself so you would work doubly hard to make things better. There are also a lot of other benefits of such a system.

Best Regards,

John Meszaros & Bunny
Monash FSAE NA
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[Bob Wright]

yeah, fair enough John. FF's suck though, and student cars shouldnt be going fast near stuff because they tend to fall apart a lot.

Bob Wright
Monash University
Australia

[gug]

we have been looking at a competition put on by our uni each year for entrepreneurs. you have to develop a business idea and market it. top place gets $15k in cash and a $15k voucher from hp.
now, at the motorshow, someone asked us how much we would sell our car for. we said $60k (about $30k american), and he actually had a serious think about it! while $60k might be a bit optimistic, it does show that there is a market for this type of car.
so if we could develop the car for proper racing classes (especially since adelaide has a good hillclimbing track and racing scene), not only could we win the entrepreneurs challenge, we could easily sell previous cars for funds for our next cars!
sorry, i actually dont have much to say on leg position! but i have noticed that some cars sit with almost the front wheels next to their arse! does this feel weird when you are driving? like when you stand infront of the front wheels on a bus?

"I come from a land down under,
Where beer does flow and men chunder"

[imajerk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Bob Wright:
yeah, fair enough John. FF's suck though, and student cars shouldnt be going fast near stuff because they tend to fall apart a lot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FF does suck balls - but it's more exciting to watch than FSAE due to the lack of racing - which sucks even more balls. There is also a danger with fast cars in hands inexperienced drivers... so... uh, I don't have an answer for that one.

If the cars where properly built, there wouldn't be a problem with falling apart, and by that I don't mean make the thing out of 6mm brushed stainless plate but spare parts. After X amount of running hours replace Y. This is perfect for an active team that has purchased an FSAE car and would reduce the falling apart affect and allow a consistent stream of money from a sale. And, once an FSAE team can actually sell a car for AUS$60k+ (and it doesn't have to be the only one they have – why not make 2 a year?) that will bring about much needed cash to conduct testing to improve testing and refinement – and even safety for future years.

imo, FSAE is more about winning than learning and hence should be treated as such. So to win you have to learn – you don't learn and then happen to win.

Best Regards,

John Meszaros & Bunny
Monash FSAE NA
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[Scott Wordley]

John, I'm sorry but you are off in fairy land.

You will never have a situation where ALL FSAE cars are built properly.

You will never have a situation where every FSAE entry is even completed on time, let alone to any reasonable standard.

You are obviously confusing FSAE with some form of racing or motorsport. It is neither. It is an engineering competition first and formost with a testing/tuning/development/driving component.

If you are in FSAE for the 'exciting racing' you've also chosen wrong. Newsflash: we have one race a year and its held on an empty car park. Of course FF is more exciting to watch. Go karts are more exciting to watch.

As for making 2 cars a year (possible for some teams but highly difficult) and selling one for $60K... I'll believe it when I see it.

You say: "FSAE has to change to become commercially viable". Why? Its fine how it is. Its not a commercial enterprise its an educational (recreational?) one. The only viablity we need to concern ourselves with is fielding a competitive car each year. Which is more than enough to worry about.

Your last line is a classic... do you even know what you are trying to say? Please choose one and stick to it.

"imo, FSAE is more about winning than learning and hence should be treated as such. So to win you have to learn – you don't learn and then happen to win."

Regards,

Scott Wordley & Roan Lyddy Meaney
Monash FSAE Wingmen
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[woollymoof]

I agree. John the whole competition is about learning, that's the whole point. Are you doing a double degree with comerce or economics?

[imajerk]

I'm not in FSAE to race a car, or even as an excited spectator - and it's not going to change the reason I joined FSAE. My opinion is about solving monetary problem; FSAE needs to be more commercial... as in teams need to make some money. When that happens the quality of engineering will be a lot better.

I'm not bagging anyone out... like some are to me, but coming back to the whole leg extension part of this thread - it was to allow the car to be used in a privateer event, which I think is the best way to go with FSAE. But, if it doesn't go that way it makes little difference to me and I will still take part in FSAE.

Best Regards,

John Meszaros & Bunny
Monash FSAE NA
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[Disco]

Gees http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, you Monash boys just took over this copnversation didn't you??? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Now how bout my original question??

[imajerk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott & Roan:
John, I'm sorry but you are off in fairy land.

"imo, FSAE is more about winning than learning and hence should be treated as such. So to win you have to learn – you don't learn and then happen to win."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe I'm in fairyland... maybe a Matrix though http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's like what came first – the chicken or the egg. It's more a philosophical statement then anything else.

Best Regards,

John Meszaros & Bunny
Monash FSAE NA
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[Charlie]

So you want spec FSAE cars? Gimme a break. That's not at all what FSAE is about. I suggest you find something else to do if you want equal cars. That would be far more a driver's contest than a team contest.

You know a company that can build a FSAE car in one day? So what! That is totally against everything FSAE stands for. Teams don't need more money because if they had it, they could pay someone to build a car. That's ridiculous. I believe if you stacked up the budgets of the top teams & rankings, it would not be as linear as you think.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE 1999-present

[Bob Wright]

I would like to appologise for the rubbish that other people at Monash FSAE go on about. In my oppinion they are all "off in fairy land". I cant believe i have to work with the likes of Scott, Roan and John. Its a living hell.

cheers!!!!

ps Our car will be extremely fast this year

Bob Wright
Monash University
Australia

[Charlie]

Oh I bet Auburn's members can bicker with the best of them http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif We just do it offline. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

See you in Australia!

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE 1999-present

[gug]

this is a great post! it always fills me with joy and confidence, when you see the opposition trying to rip their own team mates a new one! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif incase some of you are wondering how me and Charlie are getting up so many posts, its not because we are the know-all gods of f-sae http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , its because fsae.com are trying out a new private forum for each team, at the moment Auburn and Adelaide uni are guinnea pigs. it seems that Monash dont need any such forums, since they just take over someone elses thread! sorry Disco, this is so much more fun than leg extensions!
hey John, i heard Roan say that he was going to use you in the new crash testing that they are planning... you'd better get him back http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
keep it up boys! ill bring foam baseball bats at the competition, then we can charge an entry fee to watch you all go for it!

"I come from a land down under,
Where beer does flow and men chunder"

[Scott Wordley]

Apologies for wandering off topic there.

I see these forums as a place where we as individuals can express our personal opinions on FSAE and discuss the important issues.

In no way do my (or John's) opinions represent those of our team. But if I disagree with John, or anyone else for that matter, I'll usually say so.

Regards,

Scott Wordley & Roan Lyddy Meaney
Monash FSAE Wingmen
http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[imajerk]

I have to say that Scott is right - he does disagree with me, as I do with him on occasions. But I'll be mortified if my suggestions were to EVER take place.

Seriously, my personal opinions - which I have many of, in no way reflect Monash's as a team (other then the opinions of we are not going to not rip new ones for team mates, but new ones for every other team at Australasian FSAE latter this year http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

[imajerk]

Disregard my poor grammar, and replace with smart witty comments.

[Bob Wright]

Ignor what Scott and Roan said they were speaking under duress. There's plenty of people getting 'new ones ripped'(looking at you John).

Bob Wright
Monash University
Australia

[Bob Wright]

Private forums for teams? sounds like espionage to me. I wouldnt trust it for a second.

Bob Wright
Monash University
Australia

[gug]

i believe this site is run by two ex-Geogia Tech students? espionage is a thought that has crossed my mind. but then again, its not like it would matter to Monash anyway. Scott & Roan are that quick to give away any technological secret or research that you guys have on these forums to anyone that asks (eg most of your aero package).
too bad you've all kissed and made up, i was enjoying that!http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
ps. why is it that Scott can reply to any message on these forums within an hour, but takes 3 days and counting to reply to an email? hehehe, maybe i've finally asked him for more help than he is willing to give.

okay Disco, i think you can officially have your thread back now!

"I come from a land down under,
Where beer does flow and men chunder"

[imajerk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Wright:
Ignor what Scott and Roan said they were speaking under duress. There's plenty of people getting 'new ones ripped'(looking at you John).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's it! I resign and am moving my whole operation - taking my new fangled exhaust to the nice backwards people of Adelaide to show them the best way to expel gas from an engine is an open pipe rather then there incorrect potato-in-pipe theory! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

My exhaust also has full wind tunnel testing to go with it!
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[MercerFSAE C. Burch]

I've forgoton what this topic is, something about extension of legs/feet past the front centerline? Is that right?...

If any of the more experienced teams have any advice about this, it'd be appreciated.

Chris

[Disco]

Guys, I've given up on the question now, no need to apologise! Having a shit load of funny listening to the Monash boys bitch though http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I was thinking of starting a new forum, but chances are they invade that as well!!

ps Bob, we know your car will be fast, we're just hoping ours will be too!!

[Bob Wright]

reply coming post haste.

Just been talking to people about it but its all cool.

(This is Scott)

Bob Wright
Monash University
Australia

[This message was edited by Bob Wright on May 28, 2003 at 01:43 AM.]

[eon]

Oi vey!! .. Leg extensions... From what I understand we only get away with the leg extensions on the basis that the cars "aren't" going fast enough to collapse the frontal area - hence the impact zones dimensions.

To "open up" these cars would necessetate (spellchk??) redesigning the whole ball of wax, the closest I believe to being really competitive is the SCCA "Road and Track" style events held in the US of A. I watched one of these events after SAE 2003 and was fascinated by it!! (it looked like a real hoot to drive as well).

SAE is 1st and formost a "Design Competition" to attempt to make it more commercially viable by trying to compete with existing race car formats .. (formula ford... now your talking real money here!!) .. is to ignore the main aim of this competition i.e. giving students a real chance to prove themselves prior to graduating. Most SAE students will learn more about a race car as a whole system than they would in the 1st few years in outside, this cross knowledge has to give them an advantage in most fields of employment.

Unfortunately some teams do end up with more money than others.. thru either divine intervention or jus plain hardwork on the teams behalf raising funds, ingenuity is still the bottom line, these cars are being judged by engineers looking to find evidence of real engineering.. not badge engineering no matter what the cost.

One observation on SAE 2003... As I toured the paddocks quite often in the early early AM .. most of the top teams worked pretty much round the clock tweaking retouching etc.. no time off for good behaviour.

Steve S

http://www.uow.edu.au/eng/racing/
http://www.uow.edu.au/~sselby/skdesign/

founder of DNA the Natiional Dislexics Association http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif