Wheel Bearings

[Greg]

I was wondering what type of wheel bearings everyone uses, and why?
I was also wondering what good things, and what bad things people have to say about previous setups.

Thanks

Gregory Oden
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)
University of Idaho

[Greg]

I was wondering what type of wheel bearings everyone uses, and why?
I was also wondering what good things, and what bad things people have to say about previous setups.

Thanks

Gregory Oden
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)
University of Idaho

[Frank]

front SKF 6006 2RS1 .C2 .... 56mm CL spacing
rear SKF 6007 2RS1 .C2 .... 40mm CL spacing

use spacers

[Greg]

Why?

Thanks

Gregory Oden
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)
University of Idaho

[Mechanicaldan]

Timken tapered roller bearings at the wheels. Ball bearings, even deep groove are BAD.

Cyclone Racing
www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm (http://www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm)
Iowa State University
Project Director

[Brent Howard]

Tapered roller bearings are used to transfer lateral and longitudinal forces. They are by far the best for transfering both the vertical and horizontal forces.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniniowa:
Timken tapered roller bearings at the wheels. Ball bearings, even deep groove are BAD.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What makes them so bad? They are not uncommon in OEM use.

I'm not really familiar with the benefits of either, however we have the choice of a dual tapered (sealed) and dual ball (sealed) in our wheel bearing application, and the ball bearings seem to offer less resistance and are also lighter.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Denny Trimble]

The latest SAE Motorsports Conference proceedings has an article about bearing materials and coatings, I'll have to look up the number, but it says F1 cars use angular contact ball bearings for wheel bearings. These people know what they're doing, especially when it comes to the lightest bearing that will do the job. They see much higher loads than we do, as well.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03)

[Frank]

everyone under the sun will recommend angular contact

if you do the calcs properly... you will usually notice that (due to the large diameter wheels and small centreline spacing required to minimise weight) the loading is actually predominantly radial, AND is in fact out of spec for a tapered bearing

if you are trying to save weight

deep groove are they way to go

try the calcs and the selection charts and see if you agree

my only recommendation is that you try and minimise the deflection of the shaft/hub/spindle/whatever they hold by either

A keeping the centreline spacing reasonably large

or

B press the bearings in tight, to reduce the internal clearance

or

C use C2 radial clearance bearings (they are hard to find)

regards

Frank

[Greg]

In, I believe, Prepare to Win (page 95), Carroll Smith talks about using a needle roller bearing to take most of the radial loads, and a deep row ball bearing for the thrust loads. Has anyone looked at this, or done this?

Thanks

Gregory Oden
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)
University of Idaho

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

At WWU we used a pair of Fafnir ultralight series radial ball bearings. They were far lighter than the tapered bearings etc I could find and easily handle the loads.

[Jackson]

Greg;

That is exactly what WSU is planning on doing. We are using live spindles in the front and rear so the uprights are the same. We are using a 1.5" ID caged needle roller bearing on the outside and a 3/4" radial ball bearing on the inside. Radial bearings are usually good for 40% of the max radial load in thrust, so I don't think we will see too much of a problem in a 1.5g corner. FEA analysis has shown thus far that the needle bearing takes something like 80-90% of the radial load.

I believe this is the setup that CART cars use as well-- I have not actually seen any pictures, just word of mouth stuff.

Brian

[Mi_Ko]

We've used double row deep groove bearings.

They're crap, because you can not tighten them with the wheel nut and you get a gap realy soon!

Use Taper roller bearings or angular contact bearings! They're the best you can get. And don't worry about the 0.2kg of more weight and some few % of friction lose. Just let the driver to the toilet before the race and don't give him to eat for one week! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

2002/03 University of MARIBOR - Team Member

[Brent Howard]

We talked about doing that to our driver. Nothing but exlax and water for the whole road trip down. In the end we decided that it would have caused too many pit stops along the way though.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Mechanicaldan]

Anyone have a scale? Someone want to post weights of different types of bearings VS weight? We would like a scale, but don't have one in our shop. Difference in weights of different types of bearings is what? Just an ounce/bearing? We ran deep groove ball bearings in the past, and they just wore really bad, and we had slop. We are running tapered roller bearings of about the same size, not much weight difference (+/- 1 ounce/bearing), and there has been no slop or wear from driving all summer. Maybe the life is too long, but cars that last can train future drivers.

Less speculation, more data! Our proof has come from driving our car.

Cyclone Racing
www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm (http://www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm)
Iowa State University
Project Director

[Frank]

the weight isn't in the bearing

its the whole package

hubs that need to be wider for seals

longer shafts etc etc etc

[Charlie]

There are sealed dual row tapered roller bearings, just like sealed ball. There is no reason you should require seals for either type.

For dual ball vs. dual tapered, both sealed, both the exact dimensions, we found that the tapered were about .1 lbs heavier each. Not much, but it is unsprung (and we'd kill to find that .1 elsewhere in the upright assembly).

As long as we kept them properly torqued we have had not problems.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Greg]

Hey Jackson;

How much did the bearings set you back?
Where are you getting them from?

Also, what are reasonable reactions that people use for sizing the bearings?

Thanks

Gregory Oden
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)
University of Idaho

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mi_Ko:
We've used double row deep groove bearings.

They're crap, because you can not tighten them with the wheel nut and you get a gap realy soon!

2002/03 University of MARIBOR - Team Member<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't buy that, you just need a preload spacer between the inner races to take the clamping load and they run fine. Same as you would with taper rollers

The other reason they're better for us is that we have an integral rear hub/tripode outer and a taper roller to sit on the outside of that would be massive.

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[Frank]

those keizer "direct mount" wheels use 2 deep groove bearings

can anyone provide feedback about them?

frank

[Sam Zimmerman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie:
(and we'd kill to find that .1 elsewhere in the upright assembly). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Charlie makes the point that I preached all last year (and will again this year.) I have a spreadsheet of every part on our car from last year listing the weight. Disregarding the engine, the average weight of a part on our car was 0.472 lbm. There are well over 700 of these parts. Anybody who says that saving 0.1 lbm off of a part is insignificant is absolutely crazy.

This year I will buy a nice cold beverage for anybody who comes to me and shows me that they saved 1 lbm off our car without sacrificing durability and I will bet that most of the beverages I buy will be the result of people adding up several fractions of a lbm to get that 1 lbm.

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)

[Mechanicaldan]

Hmm, a little off topic now, but I'd like to see a spreadsheet with total car weight, driver training hours before competiton, and overall score at competition. I'll bet a cold one that the driving is more of a factor than weight. I'll take 20 more pounds on my car if I can get 20 more driving hours before going to competition.

Cyclone Racing
www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm (http://www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm)
Iowa State University
Project Director

[Sam Zimmerman]

I will agree that driver training will overcome a little extra weight, but they don't have to be mutually exclusive. I would like to see our car lose about 20 pounds this year, become more reliable, and still have it's first drive in the snow in February. Getting a car done any earlier in Idaho won't get us any extra driving time. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)

[Greg]

Sam is looking at it all wrong though.

All we need to do is drill and tap holes in our tires, put bolts in them, then we have studded race tires!!!

drive in the snow all we want :P

Gregory Oden
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)
University of Idaho

[Mechanicaldan]

I know how you guys feel. If the snow is melted here by March, we'll be doing good. Yes, it would be nice to have less weight, an early finished car, and driver training.

Cyclone Racing
www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm (http://www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm)
Iowa State University
Project Director

[Garbo]

Hate to move it even further off topic but:

Up here on the rock, the snow dosn't leave until april most years. A bunch of the ATV guys race all winter long on frozen ponds with studded tires. For the last two years, we have used pond racing as an 'alternate market' in the presentation. Shit, if we only drive in the summer, we won't even get through a set of tires!

I dunno how much weight studs would add, though... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

g

[Jackson]

Greg;

We actually have a kid on our team who's uncle owns a bearing shop in Vegas, so we are getting them for free.

The Fafnir 204PP's are something like $8 and the j-2416's (the needle rollers) are under $15.

F$%(#*n cheap if you ask me. The needle rollers weigh almost nothing, but the Fafnir BB's are kind of heavy.

I know Western Bearing (on south grand in P-town) gives WSU teams a 10 or 20% discount, I'm sure you guys could weasel something like that out of them too. They are a IR (timken/torrington/fafnir) bearing dealer.

As for reaction loads to design for, I don't know, this is my first time at this kind of car. I am designing everything for a 3g corner. Seeing the spreadsheet in your shop of Cornell's 2.3g corners in the enduro race makes me wonder if this is enough... I'm sure we probably won't see more than 1.7g though.

Brian
WSU FSAE

[NovaCat2005]

I just purchased some single row Timken Tapered Roller Bearings with DUO FACE-PLUS seals (LM48500 SERIES). I'm worried about how much drag these seals are going to create. The seal is bonded to the cone, and will touch the housing and the very edge of the cup when it is assembled. The sales guy said something about the seal burning up at high operating speeds. Page 225 (http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/pdf/BrgDimenChap10-15.pdf)

How can I seal single row tapered roller bearings without a lot of drag?

[Travis R]

Our older cars started with light weight deep groove ball bearings, as we would tear them out we would redesign and install a larger version. The ball bearings that can survive any length of time are so big that the "weight savings" is long gone. I'm rebuilding our 2002 car and I've found some cute little tapered roller bearings that take up just a little more space than the original tiny ball bearings. And they'll take over 5000lbs of thrust. I will never have to replace them again. I'll let you know how much they weigh when they show up. $18 ea.

[Mike T.]

Check out CR seals,

http://www2.chicago-rawhide.com/parts_lookup_457010.htm#

We've used that same bearing, without the integrated seal, on all of our recent cars with a CR seal, and haven't had any major issues with them. You can just extend the bearing carrier of you upright/hub a bit, and press the seal into it. There is some back clearance so the seal doesn't contact the rotating part of the bearing. Just make sure you pay attention to the size seal you'll need, as you want your 'shaft diamter' to be the OD of the spacer or whatever you are using to tighen on the bearing.

[Frank]

back to wheels bearings

we went to 6007's at 30mm centreline spacing

oh dear

use &gt; 40mm centreline spacing is my recomendation

6007's worked well with 3mm NWT spindles


if i did it again (5th time)... i'd try 61907's at 40mm - 45mm centreline spacing

[adrial]

We've had good luck with NSK deep groove ball bearings: 75mmID, 85mmOD, 10mm wide, 2 per wheel with a rotating spindle in the rear.

[Travis R]

32005X - ~4oz.

[fsae racer]

adrial, were those bearings a 75,95,10? also, how much are you paying for them and are they sealed, shielded, or open? we are using a similar setup, and the bearings are definitely hurting our wallet.

[Storbeck]

Hey, I'm looking into using the large diameter thin section ball bearing setup in the rear, but the prices of the bearings I've been seeing are rediculous, $150 - $250 each, which is just way too much. I was wondering where other teams are getting them from and how much they're paying.

Thanks
Andy