Cart

[Brodyj]

Can anyone tell me what has happened to Cart. All I know is that IRL sucks and I hope that the cart teams are not obsorbed into the IRL. But, they need jobs and they will do what they will have to do.

[Brodyj]

Can anyone tell me what has happened to Cart. All I know is that IRL sucks and I hope that the cart teams are not obsorbed into the IRL. But, they need jobs and they will do what they will have to do.

[Gotte Homhe]

Why do you say that the IRL sucks? You think CART is so much better, then why is it faultering? Most racing fans don't care so much about the engineering aspects of racing, they want to see good racing and most american fans want to see some american drivers. The IRL has the closest racing on the planet, not like F1. The cars are out on the track running all alone, cool engineering but there is no close racing and/or passing. There is skill in being able to pass someone who is only a couple of tenths faster than you. A skill not had by many F1 drivers.

Go

[Brodyj]

You are absolutely right. I agree with you totally that IRL sucks. So what is happening to CART?

P.S. IRL drivers are second rate.

[Brent Howard]

Agreeing with yourself Brody? because I'm quite sure that Gotte was defending IRL.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Matt Ahl]

I think most people dislike the IRL because they go around in circles. The reason CART is failing is because Tony George decided he owned Indy and was better than CART, thus wanted his own league. It does so well because Americans love to watch cars go around in circles. I also agree with Brodyj that the IRL drivers are second rate. There have been many more deaths in IRL in the last five years than in CART. I attribute this to less experienced drivers filling these open team spots an getting them selves killed. (This was happening more when IRL had just started than it is now.)

I'd also like to know what is happening to CART. The last update I had was OWRS was buying parts of CART so they could stay afloat. Now I just heard Tony George might be buying out CART to eliminate the competition.

[Charlie]

IRL doesn't suck, but it isn't at the same level as CART. Cart is more technically interesting as well as more challenging to the drivers and engineers (make the same car work 3 types of tracks).

The main reason the IRL is successful IMo is Tony George's pockets. Neither series has been financially successful yet. Both series are assisting the teams financially to ensure a full field. CART just ran out of money sooner.

The US just doesn't have a big enough open-wheel fan base to have both series. I hope CART survives because it's one of the most exciting formats in the world as far as I'm concerned. But eventually there's going to be a merger and Tony George is probably going to have the most influence on the result.

Please don't let the street and road courses die!!

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[ben]

I have always disliked the IRL simply because it wasn't set up for the love of motorsport, but as a means of giving Tony George power. I don't think that is particularly edifying.

Secondly given that the speeds are no higher than CART (a little lower if anything) why do so many IRL drivers get hospitalised? They have technically ignorant rules which force the engineers to run dangerous negative rake to achieve top speed.

On this subject, I attend a full non-FSAE Claude Rouelle seminar recently, which was also attended by a design engineer from Penske's UK IRL operation. Claude stopped being his jovial self when he said he felt IRL was unnecessarily dangerous. He was quite adamant.

I agree that CART isn't any more technical, I would say that it has a greater respect for racing.

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[Charlie]

Well the powerplant side of things is more technical IMO, or course the teams don't see much of that development anyway.

It's got to take more technical expertise to set up for bumpy street courses, smooth road courses, and high & low speed ovals than just another 1.5 mile oval though don't you think?

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[vinHonda]

Again, like with all motorsports, the problem is money. Why'd all the mfg's switch to IRL? Why are more and more drivers going to IRL? Cash. It's there w/ the sponsors, it's there w/ the marketing ppl.

If they merge, then Tony will most likely have to have road courses, street courses etc. That is what I am hoping if he aqcuires their assets. Technically, there is something wrong w/ the IRL rules aero, that is sending all these cars flying (literally) into walls.

CART was really great a few years ago. But money and power have destroyed it. Whatever the case, whatever happens, what I hope to see is a single top-class, premiere series in North America....basically what CART was a few years ago, but owned by TG and have Lola and Dallara go head to head. Dump all the poor IRL drivers and get real racers who were brought up driv'n karts and Atlantics/2000/1600 cars.

Then we here in North America will have something nice to watch on Speedvision.

my 2 cents.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[Matt Ahl]

I just found out what is happening currently. Tony George is offering $3.3 Million for CARTs remaining assets (since they are bankrupt, 1.8M in the hole.) I think a deal has to be reached within the next 3 days. If George does buy it, he said he will not be able to run a roadrace series next year (IRL cars, Champ cars, whatever.)

I have a feeling if George does buy CART and cut the series there will be a lot of lawsuits (tracks/cities not getting their one big race a year.) I wish we could go back to one good technical open wheel series running just like CART (big ovals, small ovals, street courses, road courses.) If CART does disappear, hopefully IRL runs the same tracks eventually. The only thing I hate about this situation is it lets George win his battle he greedily picked.

[Gotte Homhe]

So what the only real racers are people who were brought up driving karts, atlantics, and formula fords? I have nothin but respect for those drivers whom came from that background. Sounds like you are a little ignorant to the other side. Have many of you been to a USAC sprint car or midget race, asphalt or dirt? Why do you seem to look down on that type of racing? Tony Stewart came through the USAC ranks driving midgets, sprints, silver crown cars(dirt champ cars by the way) and supermodifieds. You have to admit that Tony Stewart is an elite driver, even up against the top F1 drivers.

You have to admit that at least part of the reason that both CART and the IRL are losing out to NASCAR is the lack of American drivers. At least the IRL and Tony George tried to fix the problem. Many american drivers used to grow up dreaming about racing at Indy and driving Indycars. That doesn't happned much today partially because of the disconnect between american open wheeled racing, USAC, ISMA and local open wheeled racing.

I too would like to see one top open wheeled series in North America, running a mix of tracks and with a mix of driving backgrounds. That way it would be a true open wheeled championship. Not one series that is full of drivers dreaming of going to F1, but one full of drivers dreaming of winning Indy. The fans will follow. Its hard to sell a series to the american public when it is full of foreign drivers. There needs to be a better mix.

[Charlie]

I have tons of respect for Sprint / midget drivers. I love that form of racing. I don't hate the IRL I just think it's format is boring.

Tony George tried to fix the problem? You don't fix an eroding fan base by doubling and diluting the product. You do it by making the product more desirable. I don't think he's done that.

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[Flash]

Just remember where last years IRL champ is from! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I know Dixon has a huge preference for road courses. I wonder how many of the other drivers feel the same (particularly the south american guys?). It would be great to see one well run series using both ovals and road courses, hope it works out.

I don't mind the oval racing, but..
Real racers go both ways.

Matt
U O Auckland
NZ

[vinHonda]

Tony Stewart vs. top F1 guys??..... I dunno about that!

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[Gotte Homhe]

Yeah thats right Vinh, I'd put Tony Stewart up against Schumacher on a dirt track or in a FF2000 RACE anyday. Tony Stewart is much more versatile, like Flash said real racers go both ways. F1 drivers don't do much driving anyways, they don't even have to downshift, GPS and computers know when to activate downshift commands or all they have to do is press a button. I bet if you had enough time you could train a monkey to do that. Talk about artifical racing....awesome technology, boring racing. Watching Space shuttles race would involve some cool technology, but it would be a boring race, no bumping or side by side action there. Probably would be cheaper than an F1 car.

How can you call races with the top three nosing it out to win, finishing of less than .010 seconds apart boring? Maybe the technology is boring, but the racing is not. Most people want to watch good racing not good technology. Take a step back from your engineering mindset and see that F1 and open wheeled racing are not succeeding in the US because people care more about good racing, not high technology. The US GP didn't even sell out. It should be more about Man vs. man not machine vs. machine.

Go

[Mike T.]

So Gotte Homhe, is that to say that you are not even as capable as a monkey? I highly doubt that you, I, or most everyone else that visits these forums will ever have the skill to race in F1. There is a lot more to that kind of racing than just pushing a clutch in, moving a shift lever, and turning left. There is also racing line, timing, and an a awareness of the surrounding traffic for the drivers to worry about. And at the speeds the cars run these are no easy tasks. Maybe stewart could drive faster around a dirt oval than Schumacher, but I'd like to see him even come close to Schumacher in Monaco.

You must not have tuned in to any of the F1 races this past season, as the racing was not nearly as bland as you have portrayed it. There was plenty of overtaking and lead changes, some satisfyingly close finishes, and heroics by some of the drivers. In Germany I think it was, Alonso in a Renault had all four wheels airborne at the start of the race after being catapulted by the rear tire of the car in front of him, damaged his front wing, lost a barge board, and managed to get back up to a points paying position from last. That is much more man than machine if you ask me.

Granted, this has not generally been the norm for F1, and your point about people wanting to watch good racing is certainly valid. Though while F1 or CART may not qualify as good racing to you, there are many in Europe and here in the Americas that disagree. I personally enjoy CART because it has a good mix of racing with the road street and oval courses. It's dissappointing that it has been failing, and if both IRL and CART could be cominbed into a single well organized series I think it would fare better and be to all of our liking.

Mike

[Alan]

I think the IRL will eventually become what CART was a few years ago with or without the acquisition of CART's assets.

-Most of the good CART teams have defected bringing with them all the foreign drivers.
-The IRL was supposed to be cheaper for new guys to come in and be competitive (which I guess has worked if you consider Penske, AGR, and Ganassi new guys). You pretty much have to be a big team to be competitive, just like it was in CART.
-You have pretty much the same engine manufacturers (Honda/Illmor, Toyota, and Chevy/Cosworth). I'm not 100% sure about this (maybe someone can correct me) but I think Honda and Toyota still lease engines rather than selling them. So the engine program is similar to what it was in CART.
-Eventually I think the IRL will have to go road and street racing. In the current set of rules, didn't they add a provision that the car has to be refuelable from either side? Weren't they pretty close to running a race at Cleveland a couple of years ago?

If they do acquire CART's assets, I think they will just become what CART was sooner.

Kettering University FSAE Alum(00 - 03)

[vinHonda]

I agree. Schumacher is a fantastic driver. I really must say... F1 guys are quite technical and quick guys who can put a car around a circuit real fast.

I hope IRL does eventually become CART (Just means that Tony George won a long term battle) Each driver is brought up in their own right, Tony Stewart would whop Montoya's butt around a dirt oval......but put them at Long Beach, or a kart track... and I think the traditionally trained circuit racer will win. He's more accustomed to turning the other way....

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[karter]

good racers are good period! (that sounds stupid) At any rate, given an opertunity, the right equipment and enough stick time, any one of them can race and win in any class. It is true that some drivers don't do well in other forms but, lets look back .... Jacky Stewart could drive anything (he didn't like the feal of the sprint car so he realy didnt give it a chance), Jim Clark went to Tera Haut in 1964? and did just fine (sprint car),,,,, going the other way A.J. Foyt, Dan Gurney, Mario Andretti .... so one last example ,,,, turns out that Bobby Allison stops at a Can Am race, they let him drive and he puts the thing on the front row, Penske sees this and ,, poof,, Allison is at Indy in one of Rogers cars!

[MercerFSAE C. Burch]

I haven't really ever understood the appeal of the IRL, NASCAR, and to some extent, CART racing. To me, 500 miles and 3-4 hours of going around in circles can get rather boring. Perhaps I'm not consuming enough alcohol, as that can make any sporting event more exciting. A lot of beer can be dispensed of in 4 hours!

The only really great part NASCAR and the IRL have is the close racing. But perhaps NASCAR's close racing is somewhat artificial due to the yellow flag rules. CART, too, has close racing and the race isn't too long. Plus, the cars are still really cool from an engineering standpoint.

Formula 1 is more appealing to me for 3 or 4 reasons... 1) I know all of the drivers names and what cars they drive. 2) The cars are the top engineered vehicles on the planet. 3) The drivers are among the best in the world. 4) Have you seen the way those things move? They absolutely fly! Compare areial video of F1 vs any other racing in the world. It is amazing the speed formula 1 cars have around corners. Shown back to back with NASCAR racing, it makes the otherwise extremely fast NASCARS look like your 95 year old grandfather on his way home from the grocery store.

Driver ability is of course a hard thing to rate. Different race series require different talents. It must be extremely challenging for those poor NASCAR drivers to stay awake during that 4 hour long trip around a big circle, listening to that anoying yet very useful spotter back-seat drive the car for them. Of course, I'm kidding. NASCAR, IRL, CART, F1, RALLY, F1 Boat, pro-autocrossers, and even pro-drag racers are all very skilled drivers. If you talk about general driving skill, I would easily place a wager on NASCAR driving ability. Jeff Gordon, among other NASCAR elite, is extremely talented at turning both directions and using the left pedal. He won the race of champions last year I think, which is kind of a rally for international racing stars. Against pro-rally and F1 drivers, no less.

So, let's end all this quibbling, pray that CART somehow keeps going, and just enjoy racing for what it really is... Burning tons of petroleum products to make people zip around as fast as possible in vehicles while holding on for dear life.

racing fan and student engineer,
Christopher

[Alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MercerFSAE C. Burch:
I haven't really ever understood the appeal of the IRL, NASCAR, and to some extent, CART racing. To me, 500 miles and 3-4 hours of going around in circles can get rather boring. Perhaps I'm not consuming enough alcohol, as that can make any sporting event more exciting. A lot of beer can be dispensed of in 4 hours!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to think that until I went to my first Indy 500 and I must say it is pertty damn exciting live. The first time you hear the field go past you at full throttle is pretty amazing. We were sitting at turn 3 and you could see the cars coming off the back straight, go through turn 3, through the short chute, and accelerate off turn 4 onto the front straight. I even got the contraversial Castro-Neves/Tracy pass on film as it happened right in front of me. I've also been to Fontana where if you sit high enough you can follow a car all the way around the track. Both tracks are pretty fun to watch and I've never had a drink at the track.

That being said I still follow F1 more closely mostly because of the technology. When we went to F Student in 2002 we got a tour of the BAR-Honda factory and saw some pretty cool stuff. Compared to the places we have toured in Indy, F1 is on a totally different level.

Kettering University FSAE Alum(00 - 03)

[Denny Trimble]

Looks like CART will be racing next year, independent of the IRL:

www.cart.com (http://www.cart.com/News/Article.asp?ID=7483)

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[rotor]

untill you see a F1 go past you in real life you dont get a picture of the speed and noise.
Also if you had a F1 race around a big circle for 500 kms the finish would be just as close (but it would be boring), oval racing just produces close racing, the closest racing ive seen is old holdens with 100hp and 1.5 tons racing around a thunderdome....

RMIT Racing

[vinHonda]

Alan from Kettering,

How'd u score the BAR tour? We always go to FStudent....and I'd love to bring my team there.

Please contact me offline. It'll be my 3rd time to FStudent and I wanna see BAR!

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[karter]

haven't been to a F1 race sence Watkins Glen 1970 something but, you don't get to see much at a road race or at some of the big ovals. Short track ovals or dirt speedways are the best for watching. Very exciting. F1, lots of noise and a flash as the cars go by, yuck! Carrol Smith thought sprint cars are great to watch.

[Mike131313]

Well I haven't read all the post and maybe some one has got the answer to this question right. First off let me say that Tony George made the IRL for three reasons. First, power, CART and its board of directors were walking all over Tony George and his Indy 500. Tony didn't like it that the top teams could sit there and alter the rules simply to fit there needs. Thus, dominating the CART championship series, the only teams that ever had a chance to win the series and the 500 were Penske, Ganassi, Rayhal, Newman Haas, Team Green, and Forsythe (don't know if I spelled all those right). Tony didn't like so he did what most kids do and took his toys and went home. CART teams thought they could survive w/o the 500, "The Great American Race." Yeah, I don't think so and Tony knew this. Second the series (CART) had become so incredibly expensive to run, there was no chance a start up team could come in and survive amongst these power houses. And third, Tony knew he could run a series solely around the 500 so that's what he did. At this point I was still willing to watch both, it didn't matter to me, until Tony anounced that it would be an oval only series. I need to go left and right. So that is the reason CART had lasted this long. but then CART teams and sponsors realized that the 500 was the mother of the series. So sponsors started jumping ship and joining the IRL. with that went some of the big teams such as penske, ganassi, and team green. now with CART losing so many of its top people, poeple that were on the board of directors, the stock dropped to nearly nothing. Then, with the help of Chris Pook, CART was able to run another year or so but it finely went bankrupt. and that is where the series stood until last wednesday when OWRS won the ruling and was allowed to buy CART's assets and run an '04 schedule. Why OWRS is doing this who knows, because we all know it won't be long until Tony George finally breaks down and makes plans to run some road races. Once this happens there is no need for two series that are so similar and OWRS can't compete with tony's deep pockets and his 500.

Okay as for what series has better drivers, that is a matter of opinion. But I definitely disagree that IRL drivers are second rate. In the begining ('95,'96,'97,'98) yes that was a fair argument. However now all that was once CART is pretty much now IRL, Penske, Andretti, and those of you who haven't watched Sam Hornish can drive. I will say that those who hate oval racing won't find the IRl of any interest, I kind of fall in this category, but I still watch ALL motorsports. Also you guys all make the argument of which one has better racing, which regardless of where they race (oval or road course) IRL has some awesomely close finishes. However one can argue, and I will, that those finishes are a product of where they race. I would say that passing someone on a road course on the last lap and last turn would be the equivalent of passing someone 200 meters from the finish line on an oval. It really depends on what you personally prefer. Like I said earlier I like left and right. So you would think that I prefer CART over the IRL and that this ruling was a good thing. But that isn't that case. I prefer F1. Because it is unified, at this point I am not interested in the racing, however last year was pretty close in F1. What bugs me as the attempt to have two open wheel series here. America can't keep two open wheel racing series' afloat. I wished that the IRL one the bid that way CART would be gone and we would once again have a single single-seater series (try saying that five times fast). When all is said and done in 3 yrs. or so, when OWRS falls, the only thing that will have been accomplished is Tony George will now run open wheel racing vs the CART board of directors.

[gug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karter:
you don't get to see much at a road race<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

haha, you do if your father has an office overlooking a corner on the track! get up on the balcony and we could see half the way down hutt street on the old adelaide track.

then of course melbourne stole our grand prix... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

- absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant it was impossible to find what he was looking for, which is the purpose of computers.

[Angry Joe]

I believe Tony George failed in his bid to "reunite" CART and the IRL (i.e. buy CART and then eliminate it). The reason the IRL is so successful is because it has the Indy 500. That and the fact that CART was horribly mismanaged.

As for IRL cars, they are nice pieces of technology but they make too little power, too much downforce and only turn one way. "Grassroots oval racing" can suck it in my opinion.



Lehigh Formula SAE Alumni
Team Captain 2002-2003

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[Scuderia_Russ]

Replying to alot of the comments on this board in one attempt...Formula 1 is closer than ever now,and yes IRL does "suck" for want of a better word.The only challenge in oval racing is trying to survive the coma you are in when you hit a concrete wall at 220 m.p.h! Personally i don't see the attraction or challenge in driving in a circle 500 times!C.A.R.T. wins it for me but saying that neither of them are particularly good...IRL for its format and C.A.R.T. because some of the drivers shouldn't even be allowed on public roads let alone a racetrack from what i've seen!

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike131313:
the only teams that ever had a chance to win the series and the 500 were Penske, Ganassi, Rayhal, Newman Haas, Team Green, and Forsythe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So IRL isn't largely a Panther, Penske, and Ganassi show then?

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[Brent]

The reason CART and IRL can't compete is because they are second-rate series. CART is an American version of F1 and F1 is superior to CART. If Americans want to watch cars go around in a circle, they watch NASCAR, not the IRL. The reason the Indy 500 still does well is because its only once a year(and because now there are a few Nextel Cup drivers in it). So in summary, road courses-F1; oval tracks-NASCAR.

[Matt Ahl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brent:
The reason CART and IRL can't compete is because they are second-rate series. CART is an American version of F1 and F1 is superior to CART. If Americans want to watch cars go around in a circle, they watch NASCAR, not the IRL. The reason the Indy 500 still does well is because its only once a year(and because now there are a few Nextel Cup drivers in it). So in summary, road courses-F1; oval tracks-NASCAR.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm, CART doesn't share much more with F1 than the fact that they are both open wheeled cars and they run on road courses (and only some of the time for CART).

CART is a series designed for an open wheeled car setup for many different aspects of racing. CART races on small ovals, big ovals, road courses and street courses. That's pretty wide range of racing enviroments. F1 only races on road courses; but, yes F1 has Monaco for a street course, but that is one race a year and the track is heavily prepped. The CART street courses don't see nearly as much preperation and the cars have to be setup for that. CART cars are one of the most versitile open wheeled cars out there because their aero and suspension setups vary so much in order to work well in each environment.

I don't see how CART is just an American version of F1.

[Brent]

The whole purpose behind CART was to bring F1 style racing to the states. That was its initial focus. They gave it an American flair by racing in the streets of California. CART was , at first, an exciting and attractive series, but as its ratings and sponsors dropped, it had to compromise its main goals. That's why they try to attract other motorsports enthusiasts through the oval circuits they race at. But I must agree with you that they have extremely versitile set-ups(but let's not forget the F1 set-up for the Indy GP). It is a fact, however, that CART has become one of the "sister series" of F1; by that I mean that many "bad" F1 drivers move to CART and many good CART drivers move to F1, proving that they are quite similar in many forms. The entire CART series stock is only worth $7 million, so why else would Bernie Eccelstone keep such a sharp eye on the series?

[This message was edited by Brent on March 06, 2004 at 10:46 PM.]

[Matt Ahl]

I am in no way saying CART is better than F1, but IMHO you are comparing apples to oranges in their current states.

[Charlie]

Well they have 18 cars for Long Beach. Hard to believe with the Herdez and Rahal teams backing out, but they did it.

I haven't been to a CART race since 1993 Road America (none within 8 hours of here!), but seeing the state of things I swore I'd go to one this year.

Why not Long Beach. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[RiNaZ]

A friend of mine working for Mahle is doing a thesis on titanium engine stuff, so he was wondering where he can get the rule book especially regarding engine ruling for IRL and NASCAR? thanks!