Dry Sump

[Jimbob]

I was just wondering what peoples opinions on dry sumps are and what the benefits are besides lowering the engine and shifting the oil mass. Also, what pumps are being used?

Thanks,

James

[D Mack - CMT]

Hey James,
My guess with this one is that its for the reasons you said above, plus the fact that you don't run the risk of the oil pickup being exposed due to heavy cornering. Oil consumption is not a worry also as the separate oil supply can be any size you require. Where as with a wet sump you don't want to overfill it too much as it screws things up a little.

Anyone else interested in commenting?

Dusko

[Charlie]

My thoughts-skewed by not ever designed a dry sump system- are this:

Main advantages of a dry sump (in general):

1) The spinning crank never has any drag from oil splash or immersion.

2) Oil starvation due to any vehicle forces is eliminated.

3) Can offer advantages in packaging and CG.

My rebuttals:

1) The crank in a F4 is quite a distance from the oil level. Combine that with the fact that we use a lightened crank with a smaller diameter, edged counterweights, I think it is not a major problem.

2) Properly baffled, you can virtually eliminate this problem as well. You can datalog to ensure no problems. Alternatively, you could run an oil accumulator.

3) How much can you lower the engine with a dry sump? 2 inches? But you are removing a significantly heavy mass (the oil) from what was a very low place. Whether or not you can place the oil resevoir, pump, etc low enough to keep it from offsetting the engine weight gain, is the question that makes or brakes dry sump implementation.

Combined with the added complexity and added vehicle mass, I think its generally not worth the trouble. But what do I know! I've never tried it.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Frank]

charlie,

you relocate 3.5 ltrs of oil (3kg)

the engine weighs 60kg

you can drop it MORE than 2 inches (we've dropped 4inches)

the hardware (if done properly) doesn't weigh much

it NEVER loses oil pressure

BUT, yes, it is complicated to do properly

http://www.uq.edu.au/fsae/2003%20Photos/Construction/Dsc00433.jpg

regards

Frank

[Charlie]

Frank-

If you are running a CBRF4, and you dropped it 4 inches, it wasn't low enough in the first place. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (The sump depth is about 2.5")

But maybe you are running another motor.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Frank]

f3

yeah theres some stuff you can "butcher" from the OEM sump

Here's some detail for you

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/franko/Ground_Clearance.jpg


mind you it could go down another 1/2 inch..

but it makes the tuned length 4-2-1 headers difficult to achieve

out of interest Charlie... how much does this differ to your engine placement... say.... measuring the face that mates to the OEM sump?

[This message was edited by Frank on September 04, 2003 at 05:58 AM.]

[Sam]

Gents,
thought i might enter the fray since i am the clown that built UQ's sump. Yeh, it's a great way to lower the CG. it is a lot of trouble. ours is a third generation design. A new shaft was designed for the oil pump to run directly on the water pump drive (straight off internal oil pump) in the first year the original water pump was piggybacked onto the oil pump, but last year and this year i have used electirc water pumps. It's a twin scavenge system sucking from both sides of the sump to give a constant supply in cornering. I would reccomend using a twin rotor (two stage) pump for each side. in previous years the system was a mess of oil lines connecting inlets of the pump to the sump. this year the pump mates directly to the sum scavenging along channels to eliminate scavenge lines.

I would say the hardest part is aligning everything. a lot of sweat and tears went into clocking out all the points in the engine, sump bolts and pickup. once you have the system sealing properly it is bulletproof.. well almost. we initially snapped the oil pump shaft by not having it properly aligned with the sump plate.

make sure that you select a pump that will scavenge at least twice as much oil as the internal one can supply. ours is off a big capacity twin (hence two stage).

the biggest peice of advice i can give is to start early and invest time and effort into measuring out all relative points on the engine needed.

blah blah blah. send me another message if there are any other questions. like frank said. it's complicated but worth it once you hae it working properly.

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[Frank]

Sam rocks.

[Sam]

thanks dal http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[Ben Beacock]

We're looking into the Maxsym system, which is developed for the GSXR1000 but should bolt to our 600. Definitely quite pricey, but with our engine arrangement, it would certainly help the CG of both the engine and the diff.
Anyone had a look at the pics? We'd build one ourselves but we have no mechanical engineers and its a pretty intense piece to design.

Ben Beacock
Co-Manager
2004 Gryphon Racing - University of Guelph

[Sam]

I see the gixxer has a lovely
ORDERED bolt pattern on the engine/sump seal.. would be lovely if a honda was like that

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[Jimbob]

As far as the measuring of the sump locating points go we have that covered, a friend in industry who operates a CMM (computerised measuring machine). The main problem is deciding on a suitable pump. Does anyone have any suggestions regarding adequate flow ratea and pressure.

Thanks again,
James

[Frank]

think MILL

think EDGE FINDER / CENTRE FINDER

think ENGINE UPSIDE DOWN IN MILL

[Travis Garrison]

Sam, what oil pump did you guys end up using? The one in the pictures looks MUCH lighter than whats on our F2 at the moment...

Travis Garrison
WWU FSAE

[Dan Deussen @ Weber Motor]

Ben B-

Do you have confirmation that the Maxsym will work with the 600 as well? Do you have any more details other than the ones posted on their web page? If you do, would you care to share?

Regards,

Dan

[Sam]

From a big kawa twin, GPZ or ZZR 900 - 1100

it's a two stage pump

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[James Waltman]

Sorry that this picture is so huge. I'll try to shrink it down tonight.

This should give you a pretty good idea of how much we were able to lower our engine. The stock F2 pan in the background next to our new dry sump pan. We used Frank's method for the mounting holes but we are lazy so we just put the stock pan on the mill instead of the whole engine.

http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/v35/Pictures/Engine/Dry%20sump%20pan%20with%20stock%20pan.jpg

James Waltman
waltmaj@cc.wwu.edu
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Formula SAE
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[This message was edited by James Waltman on September 09, 2003 at 05:52 PM.]

[Sam]

That's really sweet man,even shallower than mine. where do you scavenge oil from then???? and how do you supply the internal pickup?. you must be messing with internal stuff.

my system does not modify any engine internals. I thought about going lower but would have to mess with engine internals.

unless an f2 has a different pickup to an f3

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[James Waltman]

Sorry the link went bad and I couldn't edit it. Here is the picture:

http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/v35/Pictures/Engine/Dry%20sump%20pan%20with%20stock%20pan%20reduced%20 size.jpg

James Waltman
waltmaj@cc.wwu.edu
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Formula SAE
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[James Waltman]

Yah we messed around with the internals a little...I'll try to post a pic of em soon...

Scavange lines actually come in through the side of the case...

Travis Garrison
WWU FSAE

James Waltman
waltmaj@cc.wwu.edu
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Formula SAE
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[Sam]

thought about that one, was not game

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[Barry]

We have used the dry sump system since I have been around starting in '95. Lowering the engine over 4 inches, do the math and see how that will effect your vehicle dynamic capabilities of your car. Then look at the fact that you can pull a lot of vacuum, reduce the piston ring friction and create more power.

As Sam and Frank have said it is a lot of work, however, the benifits are worth the effort in my opinion, that is why I have the team continue the dry sump every year.

We are on our 6th generation system. We make our own pumps and have gone up to a 3 stage pump. Both 2 and 3 stage pumps work well, the 3 stage gives you more vacuum.

As I have always said "real" race cars have dry sumps. I am glad every year to see a team adapt the dry sump system to their designs.

Barry
Lawrence Tech

[James Waltman]

This gives you an idea of what we did to our case to go lower.

http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/v35/Pictures/Engine/New%20oiling%20system.JPG

Mike Zaccardo did the welding. Mike Waggoner did most of the machining before he left for grad school at the University of Washington. They did a great job.

James Waltman
waltmaj@cc.wwu.edu
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Formula SAE
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barry:
Lowering the engine over 4 inches, do the math and see how that will effect your vehicle dynamic capabilities of your car. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I can't see how anyone is able to see a 4 inch drop. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif The F4/f4i sump is 2.5" deep, the pan included, 3" at the most.

There are definite CG advantages, especially if you use a pa like WWU posted. Now that's getting all the benefit of a dry sump.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sam]

I'd love to have the facilities to strip engines in our workshop.. alas..

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[Chris Boyden]

Charlie,
pa - pressure accumulator?

-Chris

[Chris Boyden]

James from WWU,

It appears that the dry sump pump from the
V8 project is a 3 stage pump. Do you know if it
was custom built or commercially available?

Thanks
-Chris

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boyden:
Charlie,
pa - pressure accumulator?

-Chris<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No sorry, that was meant to be pan

[Greg]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sam:
I'd love to have the facilities to strip engines in our workshop.. alas..

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sam
We took our Honda CBR 600 F3 apart this summer, and all we used was a large table, a good torque wrench, a 10mm, and 8mm socket and a rubber hammer (never underestimate how much you can use one of those)
The primary problems we had with the disassembly was getting the gaskets, and supplies from our Honda dealer, plus we did not know what we needed to buy at the beginning.

Gregory Oden
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)
University of Idaho

[James Waltman]

Boyden,

The V8 used a commercialy available 3 stage oil pump. Check put http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/
then click on the picture of the pump and from Oil Pumps menu select "Compact C Pumps". We are using the same pump this year on our F2 but it has been modified some.

James Waltman
waltmaj@cc.wwu.edu
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Formula SAE
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[D Mack - CMT]

I can recommend this company for off the shelf dry sump pumps.

BDG Custom Parts
http://custom.bdg.com.au/

Contact Dick Savy and Im sure he will look after you if you tell him that Curtin Motorsport sent you.

Hope that helps,
Dusko Mackoski
Curtin Motorsport 2003

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

The easy way to get the Honda oil pan bolt pattern is to just use a scanner to scan the stock engine gasket. You then paste the image into your cad program and draw the lines/holes over the ones in the image. This works for any flat surface (engine side covers etc...)
That's the way I did the second gen sump pan at WWU. (the first one done from the mill required major fitment).

-Mike Waggoner
UW

[gug]

talk about the simple and obvious solution staring us in the face. nice trick MikeW. i might have to put a ruler into our own scanner, see if it is accurate. but i guess is should just be a scaling job at best.

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Denny Trimble]

Those Western guys are hacks. Here at UW we actually put the case half on the mill and used a center finder and the DRO to read out coordinates of all the holes, then scanned the case, then made a sketch in SolidWorks of the points, then inserted the picture into that sketch, and scaled it until the points matched up. Now we have the points and the curvature.

Back to makin' chips...

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03)

[James Waltman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Those Western guys are hacks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True we are hacks but only because
1. Those aluminum case halves are so heavy
2. The mill table is so high off of the ground
3. We hate doing any real work

Despite Mike Waggoner's best hackerific efforts the pan does actually fit and seal.

We have a sweet CMM next door (two actually) that would have been nice to use but access to the lab next door is very restricted. Access to all of the equipment in our shop is basically unrestricted. To respond to Sam I'll go ahead and brag here: our shop is awesome but that engine was rebuilt in the shop's classroom.

James Waltman
waltmaj@cc.wwu.edu
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Formula SAE
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[Mechanicaldan]

So, how specifically are the dry sump systems routed? The pickup points are at the right and left on a 2 stage system? On a 3 stage are they on both side and the back? Are the stages the number of oil pumps bolted to each other?

Do you use the oil pickup inside the cases and then route it through a machined or welded passage in the new oil pan which sucks from the accumulator?

Where are you placing a 3 or 4 quart accumulator?

I was the Engine Team leader last year and thought about it for our Kawi, but I had too much going on with trying to set up a new engine management system.

Cyclone Racing
www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm (http://www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm)
Iowa State University
Project Director