Which Battery???

[ChetanLadwa]

Can anybody suggest a good 12V (non-acid) battery to use on the car?

[ChetanLadwa]

Can anybody suggest a good 12V (non-acid) battery to use on the car?

[Frank]

i suggest a "glass mat" battery

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/maintenance_free.asp

a typical "preformance motorcycle battery"

which by the way is the same technology used in an "odyssey" battery.. people tend to get all milky about these batteries.. i have no idea why.. i think they're just a marketing gimmick

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/tech.htm

my favourite yuasa battery is
YT12A-BS
150L * 87W * 105H
9.5AH 175CCA

http://www.uq.edu.au/fsae/Frank/rear.jpg

[Frank]

they can be mounted on their side, but not upside down (ie not past horizontal)

this unit comes with acid separate to the battery, and you put the acid in and then cap the battery with a non-removable lid

some come "activated" i.e. completely sealed with acid already in there

i think the "activated" batteries can be mounted in any direction

from memory the activated batteries don't have such high performance

i think the ones supplied with separate acid can't be upside down because, the manufacturers fear a very slight leak from the lid

if you smash one of these (we did it.. dropped the thing from 5 ft) it will leak very slightly, but not enough to concern you

personally i wouldn't mount ANY battery in the drivers compartment, even if it is in a marine box

as far as the rules go, i'd say the judges would ask for a marine box (even though it doesn't leak much when broken)..

most people don't even understand what type of battery this is (an acid - glass mat battery), even though it is standard equipment on sports bikes (with good reason.. powerful lightweight compact safe)

regards

Frank

[Kevin Hall]

We use a 200Ah gel cell. It's 4W 4H and 6L (inches). It's a nice small unit, and cost $20. It has started the engine for three years now without having any troubles. Probably going to buy a couple new ones just because they are shoeing wear. They can be placed in any orientation from horizontal --> up as well.

Kevin Hall
University of Saskatchewan
'03-'04 Team Director

[SkiEricSki]

Kevin, Got a mfg and part number? Thanks.

[Ryan Schoffer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kevin Hall:
We use a 200Ah gel cell. It's 4W 4H and 6L (inches). It's a nice small unit, and cost $20. It has started the engine for three years now without having any troubles. Probably going to buy a couple new ones just because they are shoeing wear. They can be placed in any orientation from horizontal --&gt; up as well.

Kevin Hall
University of Saskatchewan
'03-'04 Team Director<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

200Ah?
thats one big as battery - the stock f4i battery is like 8.2 Ah or something like that - we have a 7Ah gel cell that works great

Vehicle electronics leader

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[RagingGrandpa]

Lotsa good battery info here (focus on full-size cars, but still there's some small ones discussed)

http://www.stealth316.com/2-dynabatt.htm

"...with powershifts and tiresmoke for all"

[Kevin Hall]

It's only 12Ah.......regardless, it's smaller than a MC battery, and we can orient it as we please.......and I found the bill

2 for $28 CDN....after tax....can't beat that!!

*edit*Come to think of it, the guy told me it was an electric wheelchair battery.

Kevin Hall
University of Saskatchewan
'03-'04 Team Director

[This message was edited by Kevin Hall on February 13, 2004 at 06:23 PM.]

[Wizard]

Heres a link for a good price on a decent battery.

HAWKER G13EP DEEP CYCLE BATTERY (http://surplusev.com/)

The 40oz Killer!

[Vector006]

Well... what's the lightest we can get with a battery?...
Pardon my childike understanding of electricity, but if you can get 12V batteries of all sizes, how do you know when it is too small to start an F4i?


Nate http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Jeremy V. Keller
FSAE04 Technical Head
Roush Industries/UofW CO-OP
vector006@hotmail.com

www.fsae.uwindsor.ca (http://www.fsae.uwindsor.ca)

[Ryan Schoffer]

you want a battery that can do 3 things

-has enough peak output to turn the engine over
-has enough capacity to start the car at least 3 times in a row (dead battery getting us kicked out of endurance would make my team lynch me)
-wont get damaged by repeated chargings/dischargings (formula cars arent the most reliable, and need to pe restarted alot - especially when training a new driver)

other than that, go nuts with the weight

i use a 7 AH lead-gel battery, its a little heave (but lighter than stock), has really good peak power, and handles all the abuse the less electrically inclined can dish out at it

Vehicle electronics leader

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Akos]

Good source of cheap sealed led acid battery is the portable booster pack you get at the local auto parts store.

The larger ones are good enough to crank over a 2 liter eninge.

These are not gell packs, but they will work sideways.

Cheers,

Akos

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

i know this is an old post, but anyone have any idea where u-saskatchewan got this mystery battery?

[Draksia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vector006:
Well... what's the lightest we can get with a battery?...
Pardon my childike understanding of electricity, but if you can get 12V batteries of all sizes, how do you know when it is too small to start an F4i?



Nate http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Jeremy V. Keller
FSAE04 Technical Head
Roush Industries/UofW CO-OP
vector006@hotmail.com

www.fsae.uwindsor.ca (http://www.fsae.uwindsor.ca) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To get a truely light battery you need to go with something other a lead/acid battery. If you design it correctly you can use lithium or lithium polymer batteries. The weight advantage is incredible and the cost is not that high but it will require intelligent dedicated charging system. The other big problem is litium batteries especially the lithium polymer ones have a tendency to explode if you are not careful charging them or you damage them.

To get something like 10Ah capacity and 12v works out to less then 2 pounds.

[Erich Ohlde]

Has anyone ever ran two small capacity batteries? Or a decent sized starter battery and a smaller driving battery (using both batteries onboard and isolating them with a solenoid) I used to do stereo installs and we did this on a number of boats. It would at best double your chances of being able to start your car back up at endurance.

[Igor]

We have used two small batteries in parallel on the 2003 Delft car. If both batteries are relatively new this won't give you any headaches, but if one of them ages faster than the other you will lose some capacity.
I have played with the idea of using a pack of NiCd's to aid during starting only, but that only saves a couple of ounces, so it's hardly worth it.

Igor

[Juan Andres]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kevin Hall:
It's only 12Ah.......regardless, it's smaller than a MC battery, and we can orient it as we please.......and I found the bill

2 for $28 CDN....after tax....can't beat that!!

*edit*Come to think of it, the guy told me it was an electric wheelchair battery.

Kevin Hall
University of Saskatchewan
'03-'04 Team Director

[This message was edited by Kevin Hall on February 13, 2004 at 06:23 PM.] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you please tell us where did you buy that battery? any info on the brand/model?

____________________
Equipo F-SAE USB
Universidad Simón BolÃ*var
Caracas - Venezuela

[Big D]

Now, I'm not the electrical guy, but I think we got the battery from Battery Boys (http://www.batteryboys.com) (a local store)
I think it was originally intended for use in an electric wheelchair. We may go to something different, because I don't think this one is strictly intended to be continuously charged by an alternator, although it seems to work fine.

Maybe Kevin can sort this out.

[NovaCat2005]

Have any teams played with using ultracapacitors to start their engine? The biggest benefit looks to be the immense weight savings because of the high energy density.

UltraCapacitor Applications (http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/support/app_notes.html)

[Igor]

The price, size, volume and capacity of a bank of supercaps doesn't look all that good. Especially if the car fails to start within the first couple of seconds.
There are perfectly acceptable solutions with conventional technologies.

Igor

[Kevin Hall]

Dan is correct in saying that we picked up our battery locally. We found them at Battery Direct, but they would be common at any battery supply shop/battery rebuilder. They are a sealed gel cell, and worked for many months without any troubles. Some may claim that they are not meant for continuous charging, but the test of time proved otherwise for the first two that we used. Very small, very powerful.

[Nitesh]

pardon my ignorance but where does energy density weigh as compared to the capacity in Ah? Moreover could you suggest some online store where i could order one of these as the stores you mention aren't even remotely local to us and thus not accessible. most of the links given above point to a page under construction or just giving the phone no and/or store address.

[MrSwa]

Sorry to resurrect this thread from the dead, but I was wondering what teams are using now. I know that our team and at least one other team had trouble restarting in the endurance because of the battery. Is this our battery, or perhaps the electric fan we use. Thanks in advance for the help.

[screwdriver]

Did you do a charge balance, i.e. how much current you draw vs what your alternater supplies? If not, that will give you the answer.

[elshone]

Well, this conversation has been dead for 2 years already, but i have a new doubt which i haven't seen answered previously.

Did any of the teams have problems with overheating batteries? Does it happen necessarily due to a bad recharge (bad rectifier)? I'm about to buy a gel-battery (12V; 7-8Ah; &lt;3kg) and just saw some team spent just 28$ for two of them.... four years ago XD.

Gel-batteries sound to me like the best option (good performance, very cheap), although i'm not sure everyone is wearing them, so i would like to know which aspects are better in, for example non-gel Lithium batteries (lead sounds to heavy for me, maybe it isn't though...).

Thanks in advance for your time and looking forward to replys.

Cheers

[JeffreyH]

We used to use Odyssey PC310 batteries, and killed one them - mostly likely through overcharging. It ended up with the side walls bulging and was basically completely buggered. They're AGM batteries rather than Gel, which is a wee bit better. To my knowledge that's the only battery we've damaged, and we have had at least 4 of them.

This year we're using Lithium batteries, made into packs of cells. So far we've abused one pack very heavily and it still starts the car very reliably. The testing procedure was basically using it every time any of our old cars went out for driver training/testing this year, and leaving it in one of the many team motorcycles for about a 2 month period. Since we've had our 2009 car running it's been used for that. We've flattened it fully twice by accident (people leaving things on), and with a recharge it's good to go in about an hour.

So far it's remained reasonably cool and has yet to show any damage to the cells through overheating/charging/anything. We do charge them properly between car outings however.

In short I'd say it's probably more how you treat your batteries than the specific type. The more they're abused, the shorter their life.

[Adambomb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JeffreyH:
In short I'd say it's probably more how you treat your batteries than the specific type. The more they're abused, the shorter their life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1...I've had to get very strict about how our lead acid batteries are treated! First thing we do once the car enters the shop is hook it up to the trickle charger! Although I suppose Li batteries probably aren't as badly effected by being deep cycled, seeing as how they're used commercially in cell phones and laptops.

[JeffreyH]

Yea. This year we've been a lot better about how we treat out batteries - it's something we did poorly before, at least the year's I've been in FSAE. The nature of testing is that it's pretty common to have to do some basic diagnosis or fixing trackside, and the car often gets left on with the electric water pump and/or fan draining it. Couple that with repetitive cranking and it's very easy to completely flatten a battery. We do use a jump battery which we plug in when stationary to prevent the car battery being flattened.

We thought we had killed two of the Odysseys but I managed to revive one (the non-bulging one) by attaching it to our variable voltage bench power supply for about a week. Eventually it came right and now it's fine.

Now all our batteries have plugs fitted so that it's a quick removal process - we take them out of the car and put them on charge as soon as possible after every outing.

The lithium ones have done surprisingly well. We got a 14V pack down to 3V somehow, and our charger didn't want to know about it. The fix was to attach it to a 12V lead acid pack for about 30 mins then put it on the proper charger. It's still going fine. I'm pretty impressed at the abuse these can tolerate.

[Adambomb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JeffreyH:
The lithium ones have done surprisingly well. We got a 14V pack down to 3V somehow, and our charger didn't want to know about it. The fix was to attach it to a 12V lead acid pack for about 30 mins then put it on the proper charger. It's still going fine. I'm pretty impressed at the abuse these can tolerate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, I've used a similar trick to bring back badly sulfated car batteries "back from the dead." My friend's car sat dead for 2 weeks, so we just hooked it up to my truck with some jumper cables until the charger would recognize it. Seemed to take about 30 minutes too. Left it hooked up to the trickle charger for a couple months, and it's great now! In fact, a year later I've "inherited" the car from him, and am using it (with the same battery) as my daily driver! Those "smart" trickle chargers can do wonders!

[elshone]

Thank you very much both of you!

Treat it nice or it will let you down in the worst moment laughing at you repetidly... just like women XD

Just joking! (before someone gets offended)