Engine help needed, 3 blown starters....?

[Mechanicaldan]

Hello,

I will GREATLY appreciate any help given, as I'm almost at a dead end. I've been working on this for over 3 weeks now, and it is severly hindering us getting on our dyno.

We are using a '98 Kawasaki ZX-6R engine and a DTA E48 EXP engine management system. We have a made a 32 tooth trigger wheel with 3 teeth missing, which is the same diameter as the stock trigger wheel, and bolts to the stock trigger wheel which has had it's teeth removed.

So far we have destroyed 3 starters. It's been a struggle to get our engine started, as this is the first time we have used this ECU on this engine. I set the ignition map as follows: 12.5 degrees advance at 1000 RPM, 19 degrees at 2000 RPM, 24 degrees advance at 3000 RPM, 30 degrees at 4000 RPM, and 36 degrees at 5000 RPM, and then the map is flat at 36 degrees until 11,000 RPM. The service manual references 12.5 degrees at 1000 RPM, and 36 degrees at 5000 RPM. Should the map be linear?

The fuel map has been generated from a base fuel map generator sent from one of our alumni.

The starters only break when the engine catches and fires. It has run each time for between 2 and 5 minutes, and died on it's own each time. When we try to restart it, all we get is the clicking of the starter relay.

After our second starter, we found our fuel pump to not have enough fuel pressure, so the fuel maps were modified to have the injector on time way more than seemed correct. We now have a good fuel pump and will have to revert back to the original fuel maps that were generated.

After disassembly, each starter is found to be missing one or two sections of the armature, where the brushes rub. The brushes and their plastic housing are broken and in pieces.

At first we though the starters could not rotate backwards, physically, and were being destroyed somehow by the crank spinning backwards. The 3rd started was disassembled, and physically it can spin either direction.

Then we were somehow thinking the one way bearing on the crank was the problem. The service manual says to check this by removing the starter and seeing if it spins one direction freely, and catches the other direction. Yes it does.

The timing was checked on our trigger wheel with a timing light as best we could. It is set within 5 degrees of TDC. The stock trigger wheel has a mark where TDC of cylinder 1 & 4 are. We transferred this to the front side of our new timing wheel. The manual showes this line lining up with the case haves at TDC.

The DTA is set to fire during cranking on the trailing edge of the first tooth. This is roughly 11.5 degrees BTDC.

The first two starters had been cranked on intermittently for about 4 hours each. They were warm/hot at the time they broke. The third was cool to the touch.

The starter uses the stock starter relay. The wire runs straight from the positive of the battery, through the contacts of the starter relay, and then to the starter. The coil side of the relay runs from the positive of the battery, through a main kill switch, a on/off switch, a momentary push button, through the coil in the relay, and to ground. One of the regulator wires is hooked to the positive side of the coil on the relay also.

At this point, I am again sourcing another starter.

My plan is to:
1. Seek another timing light to recheck the timing. (The one we used had seen a lot of use and abuse, but still functioned.)
2. Run a wire straigh from the positive of the battery and touch the starter directly, so as to rule out any type of re-engagement. (This should rule out it being an electrical problem.)

What am I missing? What should I be checking? Any additional thoughts or advice? What would you do to solve this? Is my problem electrical? ECM setup? Mechanical? I think I've checked everything mechanically that could be causing the problem?

Thanks,

Cyclone Racing
Iowa State University
Engine Team Leader

[Mechanicaldan]

Hello,

I will GREATLY appreciate any help given, as I'm almost at a dead end. I've been working on this for over 3 weeks now, and it is severly hindering us getting on our dyno.

We are using a '98 Kawasaki ZX-6R engine and a DTA E48 EXP engine management system. We have a made a 32 tooth trigger wheel with 3 teeth missing, which is the same diameter as the stock trigger wheel, and bolts to the stock trigger wheel which has had it's teeth removed.

So far we have destroyed 3 starters. It's been a struggle to get our engine started, as this is the first time we have used this ECU on this engine. I set the ignition map as follows: 12.5 degrees advance at 1000 RPM, 19 degrees at 2000 RPM, 24 degrees advance at 3000 RPM, 30 degrees at 4000 RPM, and 36 degrees at 5000 RPM, and then the map is flat at 36 degrees until 11,000 RPM. The service manual references 12.5 degrees at 1000 RPM, and 36 degrees at 5000 RPM. Should the map be linear?

The fuel map has been generated from a base fuel map generator sent from one of our alumni.

The starters only break when the engine catches and fires. It has run each time for between 2 and 5 minutes, and died on it's own each time. When we try to restart it, all we get is the clicking of the starter relay.

After our second starter, we found our fuel pump to not have enough fuel pressure, so the fuel maps were modified to have the injector on time way more than seemed correct. We now have a good fuel pump and will have to revert back to the original fuel maps that were generated.

After disassembly, each starter is found to be missing one or two sections of the armature, where the brushes rub. The brushes and their plastic housing are broken and in pieces.

At first we though the starters could not rotate backwards, physically, and were being destroyed somehow by the crank spinning backwards. The 3rd started was disassembled, and physically it can spin either direction.

Then we were somehow thinking the one way bearing on the crank was the problem. The service manual says to check this by removing the starter and seeing if it spins one direction freely, and catches the other direction. Yes it does.

The timing was checked on our trigger wheel with a timing light as best we could. It is set within 5 degrees of TDC. The stock trigger wheel has a mark where TDC of cylinder 1 & 4 are. We transferred this to the front side of our new timing wheel. The manual showes this line lining up with the case haves at TDC.

The DTA is set to fire during cranking on the trailing edge of the first tooth. This is roughly 11.5 degrees BTDC.

The first two starters had been cranked on intermittently for about 4 hours each. They were warm/hot at the time they broke. The third was cool to the touch.

The starter uses the stock starter relay. The wire runs straight from the positive of the battery, through the contacts of the starter relay, and then to the starter. The coil side of the relay runs from the positive of the battery, through a main kill switch, a on/off switch, a momentary push button, through the coil in the relay, and to ground. One of the regulator wires is hooked to the positive side of the coil on the relay also.

At this point, I am again sourcing another starter.

My plan is to:
1. Seek another timing light to recheck the timing. (The one we used had seen a lot of use and abuse, but still functioned.)
2. Run a wire straigh from the positive of the battery and touch the starter directly, so as to rule out any type of re-engagement. (This should rule out it being an electrical problem.)

What am I missing? What should I be checking? Any additional thoughts or advice? What would you do to solve this? Is my problem electrical? ECM setup? Mechanical? I think I've checked everything mechanically that could be causing the problem?

Thanks,

Cyclone Racing
Iowa State University
Engine Team Leader

[U of S Engine]

To verify your timing, you should have some sort of reference in your ECM manual. I'm not familiar with yours, however, for the Electromotive TEC-II, we set the mechanical timing by having the trigger back side of the 11th tooth line up in the center of our sensor when the engine is at TDC. I have never actually checked our timing with a light, as the access hole is very small, and difficult to reference.

I must say, however, that timing is not likely to be the cause. I suppose it could be, but I have not had a similar problem with the F4. Here are a few questions:
Does the engine backfire severely? When the engine dies on its own, does it diesel backwards (run on it's own, kind of sputtering, but backwards)? If then engine spins backwards at all, that will spell tragedy! This is why the first thing you teach a new driver is that is a spin, both feet to the floor (clutch and brake) and try to maintain control. I have seen starters TORN from their mounts after a spin.

I don't know if I was any help at all. Good luck. Engines can be so tricky some days!

Kevin Hall
University of Saskatchewan
Engine Guy
www.engr.usask.ca/~formula (http://www.engr.usask.ca/~formula)

[Akos]

I would be curious to see what your are using for a battery.

You should never use a full size car battery will supply too much current to the starter. If the engine kicks back, it will generally blow something on the starter. Blown comutator ring is a sure indication of the starter sucking too much current.


Try using the regular battery from the bike and back it up with a battery charger set for around 12A when you are cranking the motor.

Cheers,

[Mechanicaldan]

It's difficult to determine if the engine is actually 'backfiring' or if we are so rich on fuel during cranking that the wasted spark is igniting the other cylinder. The engine we have has two coils, each having two spark plug wires going to cylinders firing 360 degrees apart from one another. The ECM fires a coil, and sparks both plugs. One is just nearing TDC on the compression stroke, and the other is just nearing TDC on the exhaust stroke. There is no dieseling. It just stops.

As far as physically being able to see if the engine spins backwards when it dies, I have not been able to do this, or know how. I guess I'd have to make a little window in one of the crank side covers to do this? The gearing through the transmission would not allow one to see a brief reverse crank rotation happen.

Wow, OK, I never thought about the battery being the problem. I just assumed that devices would draw what they wanted for current, not be forced excess current. Yes, we are using a car battery. I will switch to the motorcycle battery and charger. I think I have used 10 gage wire running from the battery to the starter. Anyone know what size wire should be used for the amperage draw of the starter?

Thanks for the help. Any other thoughts?

Cyclone Racing
Iowa State University
Engine Team Leader

[biggie]

It should be really easy to check the cylinders to see if they are indeed too rich. Pull the plugs and see if they are saturated with fuel. Another way to tell is if it is flooding when you try to start it. Is it extremely difficult to start? Just my .02 to help

Nick

[Angela]

Check out this site to see how much amps certain wire gauges can handle: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

[Grant Mahler]

Just thought you should be commended for offering so much information in an attempt to get help. So many of the posters would have said "we blew 3 starters - HELP!URGENT!NEED ADVICE AND ASSISTANCE" but you provided everything necessary.

That being said, I have no idea what your problem is. Good luck in your diagnosis.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Just a few thoughts....

Speaking as someone who as cranked on alot of engines over the years, I have a hard time believing that your problem is strictly caused by backfiring or anything electrical.

It sounds like you have a mechanical problem somewhere, specifically the starter not dis-engaging when the power is removed. I am not familiar with that particular engine, but is it possible the starter is hanging "engaged" after the engine starts? Is it possible to put the starter in the wrong way or with a large amount of misalignment.

My experience is that the battery size does not matter. I have used car batteries on dyno stands for years with these kinds of engines. Regardless of size, all batteries will source a very high level of current, just for different lengths of time. The starter will draw as much current as it does based on its electrical characteristics, not the size of the battery.

In my opinion, 10 ga wire for the starter is not large enough. The starter can easily draw over 100 amps while cranking. For a basic guideline look at the size of the cable on the stock bike harness (or your car for that matter).


I hope this helps. Please keep us posted on what you uncover.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

I agree with Brian that this sounds more mechanical than electrical. I noticed on our GSXR600 that the starter and starter clutch were very sensitive to the location of one particular wave washer. It was easy to think it was on the correct side of the assembly, but when it was misplaced the whole damn engine was bound up tight. Took a few assemblies to get that one right. Perhaps you can check the microfiche or service manual again just to make sure all the mechanical bits are in their correct places.

As for not being able to get it started... has it only started 3 times after all that cranking?! Yikes!

[t21jj]

Talk about bumping a post from the grave this was posted back in 2003.

[Sebastiaan]

10 gauge wire is certainly not big enough. We run a 1 cylinder (WR450) and use a 7 gauge wire (10mm2). So be sure the amount of current your starter needs and get the right wire!

Also I'm curious about how you hooked up the regulator. Isn't that one constantly turning on your relay, so your starter is just on all the time.... If this is true, than it is no surprise that it brakes.

Of course this wouldn't tell you why your engine dies after some time and why the third starter was cold, but hey, maybe you've got more than one problem here!!

[Nitesh]

Battery size definitely wouldn't be blowing the starters. We have successfully used Truck batteries (not the mini trucks, but the HCVs) for over two years on our engines as a cheap option to jump starters without any such problems.. The starter not disengaging properly after stopping the current may be a reason.. I am not sure if relays can do this, but the relay may be leaking some current to the starter after starting the engine...

[Rex]

Not sure why I'm posting on a 4-year old thread where I'm sure Dan has figured out what his problem was...perhaps in the hope that next time someone has this problem they will actually use the search button and find this thread.

Anyway, one sure-fire way to burn up a starter is to wire the regulator/rectifier output to the wrong side of the start relay. A lot of bikes have the volt reg ouput going back to the battery side of the start relay, and if you get it hooked to the wrong post (i.e. starter side) you just might provide enough current for the starter to barely engage while the engine's running. And if you're running the engine on a stand with a battery charger hooked up, you'll never notice that your battery isn't charging via the engine's charging system. Sounds dumb, but I'm here to tell you it's an easy mistake to make...

Kind of similar to what Sebastian was saying above. If you're burning up starters, it's probably engaged for some reason while the engine is running.