Electric Water pump required flow rate on an F4i

[Detroit_Muscle]

We are planning to use an electric water pump on an F4i motor, we were wonedering if anyone out there has used one on that motor. If so, what was the flow rate that was needed to have the engine run reliably?

Sami Ahmed
UMD Racing
Team FSAE

"Drive it like you stole it."

[Detroit_Muscle]

We are planning to use an electric water pump on an F4i motor, we were wonedering if anyone out there has used one on that motor. If so, what was the flow rate that was needed to have the engine run reliably?

Sami Ahmed
UMD Racing
Team FSAE

"Drive it like you stole it."

[BeaverGuy]

The ideal water flow rate will be determined by three things. Heat load of the engine, the radiator used, and the fan flow rate. Only when you have all three of those things can you determine the water flow rate, or if you have the water flow rate and of those things you can determine what the other needs to be to perform ideally.

[Scott Wordley]

The Davies Craig Pumps work great, most of the Australian Teams run them.

Choose either the EBP or EWP depending on your ccoling requirements

Regards,

Scott Wordley

http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[Detroit_Muscle]

Thanks BeaverGuy and Scott for your inputs. This will help a lot.

Scott, I was wondering where one might be able to get the pumps which you mentioned and how much do they cost?

Once again, thanks for the help.

Sami Ahmed
UMD Racing
Team FSAE

"Drive it like you stole it."

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Wordley:
The Davies Craig Pumps work great, most of the Australian Teams run them.

Choose either the EBP or EWP depending on your ccoling requirements

Regards,

Scott Wordley

http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, they work great until they pack up half way throuh the endurance and cook your engine.

Seriously, I keep hearing good things about the Davis Craig pump, and am therefore convinced we got the 1 in x thousand failure.

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[schumafer]

why r u planning to use an electric water pump??

[Sam]

I use two EBP's in series to overcome problems in pump startup (EBP's don't like having to suck too much) and as a backup in case one fails.

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing

[schumafer]

hey detroit_muscle..what are the benefits of using the electric water pump?, i still dont see it. thanks.

[Frank]

dry sump

[CAV]

Sam Graham, can you please contact me off list at your convenience. vogelc@umich.edu. thanks!

Charles

[Detroit_Muscle]

Hello Charles,

Good to see you on this Board

Sami Ahmed
UMD Racing
Team FSAE

"Drive it like you stole it."

[mecanik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sam:
I use two EBP's in series to overcome problems in pump startup (EBP's don't like having to suck too much) and as a backup in case one fails.

Sam Graham
Engine Group Leader 2003
UQ Racing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[mecanik]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Detroit_Muscle:
Thanks BeaverGuy and Scott for your inputs. This will help a lot.

Scott, I was wondering where one might be able to get the pumps which you mentioned and how much do they cost?

Once again, thanks for the help.

Sami Ahmed
UMD Racing
Team FSAE

"Drive it like you stole it." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>kahkeshan_zs@yahoo.com

[Fred G]

Reduce parasitic losses in engine.

You can also have control over when the pump is on or off. No need for thermostats.

+1 for Davies Craig, just don't drop them

Fred

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by schumafer:
hey detroit_muscle..what are the benefits of using the electric water pump?, i still dont see it. thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Wesley]

A good idea would be to plot flow rate of your current pump, figure out what sort of heat transfer it achieves at those rates with your radiator setup, and shoot for the minimum flow rate that dissipates the correct amount of heat with your electric.

[Kealan O Carroll]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred G:
Reduce parasitic losses in engine.

You can also have control over when the pump is on or off. No need for thermostats.

+1 for Davies Craig, just don't drop them

Fred

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by schumafer:
hey detroit_muscle..what are the benefits of using the electric water pump?, i still dont see it. thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to be bumping an old thread but I guess it's still relevant...
When you say parasitic losses, the engine still has to put the energy into the battery to drive the pump?
Something about energy cannot be created or destroyed :-P
That is, unless your running the battery without a charging system?

[Rex Chan]

We just did a flow test on the Honda CBR600RR (03-06) mechanical water pump.

Raw data is here: MUR 2012/Melbourne Uni FSAE: CBR600RR Mechanical Water Pump Flow Test/Rate (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150813205108036&set=a.10150813204983036.409754.559588035&type=3)

Sorry for the spam. Now, people can stop asking this very common question. But you should still do the test yourself.

[Menisk]

We're running a Davies Craig EWP on an F4i at the moment. I won't be at uni tomorrow, but on Friday I'll check which one we're using.

I'll also put in a good word for Davies Craig because they're service is amazing according to the older members of my team. Before my time they broke the water pump because they hard mounted it to the chassis when it specifically says not to. The pump housing cracked on the Thursday before comp and pissed hot coolant everywhere, called up Davies Craig and had a brand new pump the same day no questions asked.

[Menisk]

Just checked ours, we're running an EWP80 on an F4i.

[Rex Chan]

We also currently run a Davies Craig pump (EWP115). However, we are looking into going to the stock mechanical pump.

There's nothing *wrong* with the electric pumps, and we'd be giving up the ability to control the flow independently of RPM. However, I like the advantages of going mechanical: lighter, less current draw, higher flow rates (when the car is moving), more hose freedom (EWPs don't like back pressure). The big thing in going mechanical (for us, because we run a dry sump with scavenge pump using the water pump shaft drive) is to design/make a method of driving both scavenge pumps and water pump.

However, when we looked into the design more seriously, it turns out it wasn't going to be that hard, so that's the plan atm. We've got a CAD of the adapter, and the 2012 guy doing it (SeanA) is going to CNC it at Holmesglen soon. If it works, we'll let you know

[Steve Slowboy]

Rex,
Sounds interesting - I'm planning on going this route also, though I'm using a GSXR1100WP (in a carbot tub single seater hillclimb car).
I run a total loss electrical system so can't afford the current draw of an electric pump.

My plan is to source a scavenge pump that I can fit a through-shaft to. It would fit in place of the original mechanical water pump, with the pump relocated outboard via an adapter plate / mounting flange.

ok, going off-topic here, but I'd be very interested to hear of any suitable scaveng pumps that folk have found.

Cheers
Steve

Saxon S1100 Hillclimber

[Rex Chan]

Steve: this is exactly what we're doing. We have designed the adapter plate thingy to fit the current scavenge pump we're using (Dailey Engineering 2 stage), but you should be able to make a similar plate (to allow pass through the the shaft) for any scavenge pump. We have 2 more Pace Products (UK) scav pumps, and they could also be used to power a mech water pump. It would require a different design of adapter plate, but that's just to account for the different shaft position and pump sealing (Dailey is roots blower with 2 shafts; Pace is gear-rotor with single shaft).

I haven't dealt with any other brands/types of scavenge pumps, but as long as you know what it looks like inside (before you buy it), or open it up after, you should be able to modify any pump. I suppose a flat end cap/plate on the stock pump helps a lot with making the adapter. And having the shaft stick out helps (though we're making an entire new one piece shaft).

[Steve Slowboy]

Thanks Rex - nice to see that someone else has the same plan in mind!

[Rex Chan]

And now for some pretty plots: Honda CBR600RR Mechanical Water Pump Flow Rate Test [L/min] (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150829257203036&l=076deb7d3d )

Dividing flow rate by 1000RPM: Honda CBR600RR Mechanical Water Pump Flow Rate Test [L/min/1000RPM] (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150829257248036&l=da4ce85c2e )

The raw data in Excel: CBR600RR Water Pump Flow Test Raw Data (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150829256503036&l=2eeff8456f )

test (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150829256503036&l=2eeff8456f )