Removable Engine?

[Vector006]

Does anyone have any comment about removal of the engine once your chassis has been built. I've seen a bunch of cars that look like you'd have to cut apart the frame/ rip out the seat and firewall to get the engine out. Has the judges ever commented on ease of engine removal? We are planning on making the bottom frame rails removable so the engine can drop from the bottom.

Thanks,

-JER

http://zeus.uwindsor.ca/fsae/Pics/fsaeconcept.jpg

Jeremy V. Keller
FSAE04 Technical Head
Roush Industries/UofW CO-OP
vector006@hotmail.com

[Vector006]

Does anyone have any comment about removal of the engine once your chassis has been built. I've seen a bunch of cars that look like you'd have to cut apart the frame/ rip out the seat and firewall to get the engine out. Has the judges ever commented on ease of engine removal? We are planning on making the bottom frame rails removable so the engine can drop from the bottom.

Thanks,

-JER

http://zeus.uwindsor.ca/fsae/Pics/fsaeconcept.jpg

Jeremy V. Keller
FSAE04 Technical Head
Roush Industries/UofW CO-OP
vector006@hotmail.com

[Charlie]

Ours came right out the bottom with gravity assist. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[Matt Gignac]

Our chassis can be split in two at the main roll hoop, so we don't think engine removal will be a problem

Matt G
McGill Racing Team

[Matthew]

ours falls out the bottom, its a very easy way to remove the engine, you just unbolt the motor than pick the frame up.

-Matthew Hetler
hetl0020@umn.edu

[Ben Beacock]

We're using a removable lower member on one side so that it comes out to the right and down. I thought about having a removable firewall/seat, but it seemed like a nightmare to design. Last year it came straight out the bottom but the frame was bigger than needed to accommodate that.

Ben Beacock
Co-Manager
2004 Gryphon Racing - University of Guelph (http://www.soe.uoguelph.ca/uogracing)

[Mechanicaldan]

Because of the frame mounting on the rear of the cylinders on our Kawasaki, we pull ours out throught the firewall, as we have done for 4 years now. A lot of hands makes it easy. The 2003 Kawasakis could come out the top like many other teams, as the frame mounting is on the exhaust side of the cylinders.

Cyclone Racing
www.cyclone-racing.com (http://www.cyclone-racing.com)
Iowa State University
Project Director

[Angry Joe]

For the last car had the engine come out the bottom. This year the engine is only supported by the hoop stays and some removable brackets so removal will be a cinch...



Lehigh Formula SAE Alumni
Team Captain 2002-2003

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[Mick_P]

Our '03 car was a fully stressed engine so it was a matter of undoing the main engine mount bolts, a few wires, and presto!

Mick Partridge
Swinburne University of Technology

[PatClarke]

Hey Vector, did you get Rules Committee approval for the stresses imposed on the upper inner A arm mounts imposed by the twin synchronised watercooled Vickers .303 machine guns?
PDR

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!

[BStoney]

In the O3 and 04 cars, we just unbolt and lift up the chassis for the most part.

University of Cincinnati
bjstoney13@yahoo.com

[Cody the Genius]

Having a removable engine is definately a must because it can save your life when at comp. In australia we destroyed a gearbox during the first enduro heat, brought it in, swaped the engine and tranny in two hours then went out and won endurance and in turn the competition overall. Given most of that is acreditted to pure adrenaline and flying wrenches, a easily removable motor allowed us to win F-SAE-A.


-GTmotorsports
"GO MOTOR!"

[Charlie]

You guys won endurance? That makes 2 of us I guess. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[Cody the Genius]

oh....ok then so we swaped a motor in 2 hours and then finished second in endurance and won overall. The story still has most of its effect. I guess I just heard wrong and I do recall you guys passing us in our closing laps, a feat that you guys are never gonna let us live down.


-GTmotorsports
"GO MOTOR!"

[Charlie]

Hehe well you guys won the event so you can't feel too bad. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You are absolutely right about the engine needing to be accessible. We swapped engines in Detroit before endurance as well, but it wasn't a short timeframe. You guys should be proud of that accomplishment.

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[Angry Joe]

The aussies get two endurance events? That's just frigging great. Sorry, but I'm a little jealous.



Lehigh Formula SAE Alumni
Team Captain 2002-2003

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[Ashley Denmead]

Yeh angry Joe.....u should be angry!! lol
Its great.....thats all i'm gonna say

The edge is not the limit it is mearly the beginning!

[Denny Trimble]

The US event had 2 endurances through 1998. I think there were 100 entrants who showed up that year.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[Angry Joe]

We had two events scheduled at least through 2001, however one was rained out at EVERY competition we attended. I actually thought there would be two for 2003, needless to say I was very angry when I discovered one was canned, especially since we can finally run fucking rain tires!!!



Lehigh Formula SAE Alumni
Team Captain 2002-2003

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[Nate Notta]

... time to revive this year old thread...

Any teams use removeable roll-hoop bracing to facilitate engine removal? --- perhaps more importantly, can you give me a good reason not to make the roll hoop bracing removable? Perhaps it's a no-no with the judges?

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

It's heavier than a non-removable one, and it introduces additional compliance into the chassis if you're stressing the tubes at all.

[jonno]

The last 2 brunel racing cars had removable bracing bars
http://www.brunelracing.co.uk/media/formulastudent2003/1.jpg
market it to the design judges as designed for ease of engine change and they are ok with it... we can swap engines in around 10-15 minutes. Both bars rotate: lostening the load they then lift out. 6 bolts are taken out of the engine, the engine loom is disconnected and a few additional hoses and pipes are disconnected, then the engine lifts straight up.
The problem we have is that since the bracing bars aren't crossed, we loose a lot of torsional stiffness

[Nate Notta]

We're concered with maintaining some of the rigidity the connections would have if they were welded. For instance if there was one removable bar on the bottom of the chassis, you don't want a bunch of slop in the connections. What attaching method do you guys favour?

[Lyn Labahn UW-Madison]

Jonathan,

It would appear that you are using rod-ends for the ends of your rollhoop braces, isn't this spefically outlawed in the rules? Care to comment? I'm not trying to be a dick, I am just curious!

Everyone else,

We have used removable rollhoop braces in the past with success, they do make engine removal very easy. However, something to consider is that there are rules on how strong everything has to be, and when it is all said and done you are likely to add a pound or so to your frame if you follow the guidelines. Now you may say," A pound? Who cares!", fair enough, but trying saying that 100 times to small things on the car and see how much your car weighs! Our 2005 car will use removable members, but not rollhoop braces because of this reason.

[Jonathan D]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lyn Labahn UW-Madison:
Jonathan,

It would appear that you are using rod-ends for the ends of your rollhoop braces, isn't this spefically outlawed in the rules? Care to comment? I'm not trying to be a dick, I am just curious!

Everyone else,

We have used removable rollhoop braces in the past with success, they do make engine removal very easy. However, something to consider is that there are rules on how strong everything has to be, and when it is all said and done you are likely to add a pound or so to your frame if you follow the guidelines. Now you may say," A pound? Who cares!", fair enough, but trying saying that 100 times to small things on the car and see how much your car weighs! Our 2005 car will use removable members, but not rollhoop braces because of this reason. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its almost easier to just remove the engine from the bottom of the car. No messing with an engine hoist... just unbolt the engine and lift up the car.

Besides, those CBR600 motors have those nice pegs on the bottom of the oilpan to set the motor down on to.......

[Nate Notta]

I think we're going to have to drop our engine out the bottom again this year, but unfortunately it's going to require at least one removeable member,.... we're just going to have to design a slop-free fastening system, no problem..... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Daves]

Due to our bonded carbon fiber belly pan, we will have to lift the engine out of the car. Therefore, we will be using removable roll hoop bracing, and it probably will add on a pound or so. Dropping the engine out of the car has not always been easy, either. Once the chassis has all the components on it, it weighs more than the engine.

[jonno]

they aren't rod ends!

[Denny Trimble]

Well then, what are they? Are they the solid threaded parts that look like rodends? Can't think of the name for that part right now.

[Daves]

Denny, do you mean clevises (http://www.meziere.com/index.php?pgName=tclevis)?

[Denny Trimble]

That's the ticket...

[Charlie]

A clevis has a slot in the middle. A solid rod end (no spherical) is just called a solid rod end.

[Angry Joe]

Dropping the engine out the bottom is nice because it is easy to do on sawhorses. Plus, a chassis is heavy, but it's easier for a group of people to pick up. Just my personal preference.

[Daves]

. . . of course for Lehigh it really doesn't matter since the whole package is massless.

[Angry Joe]

I was thinking of our previous 'big' cars. The '04 layout is different, but the engine does still come out the bottom.

[Courtney Waters]

Back in '02 we had designed our car such that the entire engine could be removed/installed easily by one guy (removable braces and a funky mount setup). In our design review we were told it was too heavy and that the bars should be welded in.

The next car had fixed hoop braces and the engine came out through the main hoop once you pulled the seat & harness bar (and intake & exhaust). It's a lot more work to get out, but saved quite a bit of weight (and fab time) and was much better received in design. Dropping the engine out through the bottom was considered (and is probably the easiest way to go) but we had stressed chassis members running under our engine.

For an autocross car it really isn't necessary to have an easily swappable engine. Sure it helps for the competition if you manage to blow an engine, but any other event and you're done for the day. As long as it only takes an hour or three to do the swap I think you're ok.