post revival: criP adjustment for Motec and GSXR engine

[A Reinke]

the original post: http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=763607348&f=125607348&m=7786020025

had a few questions about this:

has anyone with a GSXR engine using a Motec verified a criP number? or are we the only ones using a Motec and a GSXR?

also, the steps outline in the post were to.

1. set criP test value to 0 degree's
2. timing light on #1 plug wire, with spark plugs out of motor
3. rotate engine over and watch for timing mark to line up with mark in case. (the GSXR has a wheel with a notch, and a notch on the case...i'm assuming for TDC, right?)
4. timing light should flash when marks are lined up. if not, adjust criP test value until marks line up.
5. add/subtract criP test value to criP value to find the criP degree and useable number.

any input or comments?

~Adam

[tommy]

if i remember right the procedure is in the MOTEC program if you press the help key (F1?), if you want to verify what you read in the post.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

It's all going to depend on the trigger wheel you use. I made a 12 tooth that replaced the stock 8 tooth. It was a tricky part to make for sure. It is possible that I could get you a picture in a few weeks when I rip the motor apart again. From what I was told, the MoTeC doesn't work too well with anything less than an 12 tooth wheel, hence the reason why the stock one has to go.

The procedure you wrote down is a little off from the way we do it. I'm heading out right now, so I'll elaborate later.

-Twig

[A Reinke]

we opted for motec to utilize the stock trigger wheel...

electromotive gave us nothing but trouble.

[Dan Deussen @ Weber Motor]

The gixxer stock trigger wheel has only 4 teeth. For a reliable calculation of correct spark advance under hard accelleration rates (up to 4000 rpm per second on some of these cars) you should have more teeth. The more teeth you have, the more accurate your ignition timing and fueling will be. I have retrofitted our gixxer with a 30-2 (read thrirty minus two) trigger wheel, aligning the trailing edge of the tenth tooth after the gap with TDC1. Since I am working with an older caruretted engine, I also added a hall effect sensor picking up a camshaft lobe to phase the ignition/injection.

Here is a solid model of the trigger wheel I use:
http://cs.svsu.edu/~dsdeusse/30-2.jpg

Just turn down the stock trigger wheel (you need a good carbide in the lathe and some patience) and press this wheel on, align it and fuse it on with the TIG. Let me know if you have any questions.

Daniel Deussen
www.walbro-italy.com (http://www.walbro-italy.com)

[A Reinke]

Dan the trigger wheel has more then 4 teeth. i believe it has 7 or 8 if i recall correctly. it also has no missing tooth, which makes it more accurate.

we were told that during cranking and some other instances the gap in the tooth might be missed due to engine cranking variances. using the stock trigger wheel plus a cam sensor is ideal.

i'm sitting at the engine now, i'll check out motec's help file.

~Adam

[Kirk Feldkamp]

It has 8.

-twig

[A Reinke]

turbowig, you're familiar with the timing marks under the small cover, right?

if they are lined up...is there an initial advance to the engine?

[A Reinke]

i feel like a tard, heh...i can't type what i'm thinking here ever.

i just want the easiest way to verify our crip value with a timing light and the motec computer. i've got everything here...

[Matthew]

reinke-

the M4 software has a utility especially for setting the CriP value.

-Matthew Hetler
hetl0020@umn.edu

[Kirk Feldkamp]

There is a little dot on the stock trigger wheel/ cam chain sprocket. That little dot should line up with the line on the case when #1 is at TDC. There is a tool in the motec software to do this under Crank Index Position in the Ignition menu. Just throw a timing light on the #1 plug wire and go to town. Just make sure your fuel pump is off and you have a good strong (BIG) cranking battery.

If you're still having trouble visualizing the whole thing, download the utility MoTeC for criP settings. I think it actually may be in the stuff that is installed when you install the software. I'd tell you what we use, but that'll be useless with the stock trigger. The description that the MoTeC guy gives(found at the bottom of the thread quoted at the top of this thread) is a dead on great description.

Did you ever figure out the popping that you described? We had a ton if issues with this until we figured out that the injectors were wired up wacky in relation to the convention. Make sure you verify that they are truly working for the cylinder you think they are working for. The diagnosis section on the main menu is a real big helper. I think the MoTeC has to be plugged in for this menu to be available.

-Twig

[This message was edited by turbotwig on March 05, 2004 at 10:30 PM.]

[This message was edited by turbotwig on March 05, 2004 at 10:37 PM.]

[A Reinke]

turbo, i sat down friday and played with it. it was exactly like setting the timing on a car, or my motorcycle with an older electronic ignition.

we were actually very close on our original criP value, which we determined with Motec's suggestest method of counting degrees. we had 470 as our criP value, i tweaked it to 472 friday.

i will verify it more this week when we run the engine some. the testing i did friday was only with the engine cranking.

~Adam

[A Reinke]

as for the popping, no we really haven't figured it out. we're going to do a compression check this week to make sure we dont have a tight valve.

basically the popping is from one cylinder...but its pretty constant when the engine is cold. if we add ANY cold-start fuel enrichment at all, the engine backfires through the intake violently. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

we're gonna hopefully figure it out this week...we're using last years intake for the time being.

what problems did you run into turbo? how did you resolve them?

~Adam

[Dan Deussen @ Weber Motor]

Reinke-

a cold engine does not like too much advance, especially during cranking. If you have a table to adjust ignition based on engine temp, try taking a few degrees out during warmup.

Try putting a straight line between 0 and 4000 rpm from 5 to 25 degrees of advance in your idle spark table. If your give it too much advance during cranking, the engine might backfire through the intake.

Daniel Deussen
www.walbro-italy.com (http://www.walbro-italy.com)

[U of S Engine]

You don't need such a big batetry if you pull the plugs out. Cranks over pretty easy for quite some time.

Kevin Hall
University of Saskatchewan
Engine Guy
www.engr.usask.ca/~formula (http://www.engr.usask.ca/~formula)

[Kirk Feldkamp]

We did what Dan said and things calmed down a lot. In the ignition screen you can set a test advance while running. It is helpful to sit there and play with that to find your base timing. From there you can go back and change the ignition map. Make sure your map isn't too agressive to start off. Work up to it.

The biggest thing was that the conventions that the MoTeC uses for cylinder # were throwing me off. Come to think of it, I THINK (but can't remember) the cylinder #'s are in firing order, not cylinder order. Or is it the other way? Either way, I adjusted everything so it worked on the right cylinders using the diagnostics. Make sure the injectors and spark plugs are on the right cylinders! We were getting the same problems you were before we did that.

Are you using the stock 8 tooth trigger wheel? If the diagnostics dont solve anything I'd b tempted to think that you need to make a wheel with more teeth. Do you get a sync error after the motor is running?

-Twig

[Matthew]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by turbotwig:
The biggest thing was that the conventions that the MoTeC uses for cylinder # were throwing me off. Come to think of it, I THINK (but can't remember) the cylinder #'s are in firing order, not cylinder order. Or is it the other way? Either way, I adjusted everything so it worked on the right cylinders using the diagnostics. Make sure the injectors and spark plugs are on the right cylinders! We were getting the same problems you were before we did that.
-Twig<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MoTeC switches conventions from screen to screen, but I know that the ignition test screen is FIRING ORDER and the Injection test screen is CYLINDER NUMBER

-Matthew Hetler
hetl0020@umn.edu

[A Reinke]

we run the 8 tooth wheel without any sync errors.

the post above me is right, you have to set the fire order, not the cylinder order for motec to work properly. injector wires have to match the fire order.

we just checked the valves on the motor this morning. we have a really loose intake valve, so we're gonna try and get some controlled amount of air into the cylinder to see if the valve is sticking.

if its sticking, that's probably why we have backfires.

~Adam

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Any word on that valve? After we figured out the numbering issue, we also had similar problem when a plug of crappy metal filler got sucked into the engine. Oops. What do you mean by "really loose valve"?

Have fun with those shims. I think they're like $5 each from Suzuki. Wallet burglers I tell you! I think they charge like $75 for the tool that goes on the spring retainer. You can make it for 30 cents and half an hour of machining. Careful not to lose the split locks too. They're about $2.50 each.

[A Reinke]

we ran the old engine setup yesterday trying to work some bugs out of it. the engine temp sensor is still being a bitch and i dont like Motec's A/D conversion thing they use...it just plain sucks.

we pulled the head off the motor last night...and didn't see anything wrong. we're gonna try swapping heads, and see if the backfire through the intake goes away.

3 years now, and i'm starting to not like Suzuki GSXR motors...

~Adam

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Did you pull all the valves and clean them up? You should also check to see if you bent any of the valves. Have you compression checked the motor to see if there is one particular cylinder that's acting up? Were all the pipes heating up evenly? That was a dead giveaway that our motor was acting funny.

-Kirk
UC Berkeley

[A Reinke]

we did a compression test, and all cylinders were close...#1 took one extra stroke to hit ~150 PSI. books says they should be within 25 PSI i believe...

all of the valves look okay but we haven't pulled them out yet. we're going to swap heads and see if it helps.

~Adam