Shop Access

[IsheeM]

Our team is trying to put together a sound argument to get shop access 24 hrs a day. So if you guys could please help me out by telling me if you do have unlimited shop access what did you have to agree to and what are your limitations. We feel this is a necessity to building a competitive car. Currently the shop is only open till 4 pm and if the supervisor is not there (which often he does disappear) we do not have access to certain tools. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Michael

[IsheeM]

Our team is trying to put together a sound argument to get shop access 24 hrs a day. So if you guys could please help me out by telling me if you do have unlimited shop access what did you have to agree to and what are your limitations. We feel this is a necessity to building a competitive car. Currently the shop is only open till 4 pm and if the supervisor is not there (which often he does disappear) we do not have access to certain tools. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Michael

[DY]

There hasn't been a rigid agreement really, but there are two key things we do. One is to clean up everytime, and the other is that we use our own tooling (ie collets, endmills, toolposts, bits).

[Sam Zimmerman]

I would strongly suggest you do not try to get 24 hour machine shop access. The worst thing that could happen would be having it granted to you. Unsupervised, 24 hour access to the is the perfect formula for injury and an injury at 3 AM in the machine shop is a perfect way to screw yourselves and everybody who comes behind you out of access to the shop at any time.

I would suggest a better plan may be to use your 8-4 time as much as possible and lobby for a Saturday or 2 to make up for what you cannot get done during normal hours.

Another idea for next year is to have your team in the machine shop through Christmas break, reducing the need for around the clock access.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, though.

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)

[Moody]

We don't have full access, either. We just got a brand-new building, complete with "student machine shop" area and tools, but the administration is starting out very strict with rules & regulations, and I suspect it'll be a while (year or so) before we start to work the kinks out. Regardless, keep trying, and I agree with DY ... a good reputation and impeccable record will speak volumes above any other argument you might have with your faculty.

- matt

Matt Moody
Crimson Racing
University of Alabama FSAE
matt@pepper.net

[James Waltman]

We have lab access until midnight every day of the week. We can go later if we ask permission beforehand. So as long as we have clearance we get 24 hour access. We have to have a lab manager present and at least one other person (so no one is operating machines by themselves). The lab managers are undergraduate students (I'm one of them - usually we have 3 or 4 and we trade nights). To some extent the students choose who will be lab managers – we choose based on who is in charge of the teams, who is responsible, and who can spend nights in the lab. We take our recommendations to Dr. Seal (program director) for approval. After that it goes to the Department chair for final approval. Once they give the OK we have to take a CPR/First Aid class. Finally, we get on a list that the University Police keeps. We can call them to come and unlock the building at any time to let us in. This way no students have keys. The lab manager's primary concern is safety. The second concern is making sure we don't allow anything to happen that could jeopardize future access. The system works well for us. We get to use all of the equipment all the time: CNC mills, CNC lathes, welders, grinders, torches, wrenches, etc. Some of the faculty thinks that no good work can get done after midnight, but we all know that sleep is for the weak.

I am interested in what other teams do. Let us know if you are successful.

James Waltman
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[Sam Zimmerman]

Speaking of machine shop access, the University of Idaho, College of Engineering, Mech. Eng. Dept. is proud to announce it is expecting a brand new addition to it's family. A Haas CNC Lathe is expected to arrive and join it's family (Bridgeport CNC Lathe, Haas CNC Mill w/ A-axis, and Bridgeport CNC Mill) within the next two months.

I will share pictures of our brand new baby when it arrives. We are proud and I can't wait to use it.

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)

[IsheeM]

As it stands now we have no access on the weekends or any other school holiday. Christmas would be nice to have the shop, but for now we dont. Currently we can not work in the shop unless the shop manager is present. This person is not reliable as we have specified certain times when we must have the shop and he forgets to show up. This happens on a regular basis and it seems as though he has no set work hours either. Now do you see the problem. In addition, several team members have jobs which require their attention till five every night. With only a total of maybe 10 active members, we cant afford to lose anyone. Thanks for the suggestions so far.
Michael

[Denny Trimble]

We have a few "shop masters" every year. These are people who:
-Take fire safety, cpr, and first aid classes
-Convince the shop manager that they can responsibly oversee the use of the shop after hours.

They have keys and 24/7 access, and we use it. We don't even go into the shop until 6pm, at which time we have it all to ourselves until the red bull runs out. The only restrictions on tool use are the "nice" 3-axis CNC mill, and some of the measurement tools that stay locked up.

I can write a formal letter describing our shop use agreement and policies, if that would help your situation.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[Brent Howard]

We have had some access problems in the past as well, but this year things are working fairly well. The best was a few years ago when one team member worked in the machine shop and so had keys and could supervise any time (still didn't finish the car on time, but we couldn't blame machine shop access). This year we have been given some access to the welding shop (MIG welder, drill press, and belt sander) access as longas we get a professor to open the door. This has worked fairly well. Basically we do as much machining as we can during the weekday access, but leave everything else till the weekend. Anything that can be done without a machine we do it. Basically we are designing a lot more welded pieces than ever before.

As for the other suggestions I completly agree with using your own tooling. It can be expensive, but that way when a carbide cutter snaps on you the machinists and faculty are not mad at you. We started buying our own last year and our relationship with the machine shop has gotten much better, and we now have a better selection of sharp cutters http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Michael Jones]

I'd have to agree re: unsupervised or peer supervised 24/7 machining access - it's an accident waiting to happen. I've seen altogether way too much sketchy shit go down at 3am, and adding machining tools to the mix doesn't make it any better. That, and most schools in the USA in particular are going to be very paranoid with respect to occupational health and safety requirements, for better or worse. If they aren't, they will become so the first time someone loses life or limb and you'll go from 24/7 to 0/0 in a damn hurry as they clean up the blood and impending civil suits.

That noted, campaigning for extended supervised hours is always a good thing. Many shops are open during completely unreasonable hours for student access and use, forcing unnecessary tradeoffs between attending class and machining. A forward-thinking administration realizes this and hires shop staff accordingly to meet customer demand, not arbitrary full-time employment expectations.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[Daves]

Our shop is open until 6 PM each night because there are classes in it until then. During project season, the shop is usually open until midnight. However, if we need to get in when the doors are locked, we simply call campus security. They just look to make sure our names are on "the list," and they let us in. However, they will only open it for those who are on the list. Also, we have to sign in to use the equipment.

http://www.letu.edu/formula

Formula Photos & Links (http://what3542.5u.com/dave/fsae/formula_photos.html)

[Travis Garrison]

I would urge you guys to push for access at LEAST until the 10-12PM range...we wouldn't get a thing done if it weren't for our 5-10PM shifts...

Lab access after 12 might not always be the best idea, but I can think of several occasions where we have been waiting for paint to dry or resin to cure VERY late at night, and into the next day...if you don't have some provision for extremely late access on ocasion it can make some of the time consuming (but relatively safe) projects very difficult to complete.

Travis Garrison
WWU FSAE

[Flash]

Whilst it is yet to be put into action, we have had some very useful discussions with our Dean and stressed the importance of all hours access to get the car built.

His suggestion, and the current plan, is that the Chief Engineer (myself), and subgroup leaders undertake a small course to become qualified (in the university's eyes) as lab supervisors. This, along with a first aid certificate, will allow the workshop to be used any time one of these people (but obviously not by themselves) is present - which there will almost always be anyway- using 24hr swipe card access.

Whilst it is yet to be done, the university seems to be perfectly happy with this (they suggested it). I would guess that the whole liability problem is a lot less here than in the states, but maybe it's worth suggesting?

One of the points we have made is that without all hours access, we would probably end up skipping classes (not that we wont anyway http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) to get the car finished.

I can't see how we would finish a car (for Australasia 04) if we could only get 9-5 access.

Matt Houston
Technical Manager
University of Auckland FSAE 2004

[ben]

We have 24 hour lab access, which gives us access to the metal store and all the hand tools. Machine shop is 9-5 mon-fri.

Exceptions are made in and around competition and launch.

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[Michael Jones]

The card swipe and peer supervision with training idea is about what I advocate here. It goes a long way, perhaps all the way to machining -- certainly in a different legal climate, we'd have 24/7 access already. Not gonna happen here though.

I'm a big fan of personal responsibility - if you're a dumb ass and do something very stupid that causes some harm to you and you alone, suing the university just makes you even more of a dumb ass in my view.

In decent jurisdictions that ignore frivolous lawsuits and limit bureaucratic overhead (e.g., not the USA, and arguably not the EU, but more like places like Oz, Canada, etc.) the odds of getting better access to dangerous things are much greater because it's your ass if you screw up.

Between lawsuits and OHSA regulations here though, most administrations wouldn't dare open up facilities 24/7 or unsupervised.

The best you can do is do things without the administration knowing about it. You'll be surprised to find out what they do and do not know about. Odds are, if you keep it on the QT, no one will figure out what the hell you're doing. Arouse any official channel of complaint or legal recourse, you pop up on their radar screen, and you're in for a world of fun.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[Frank]

I believe that after 3 years, we have had very few "incidents"�.

One guy gave himself a second-degree burn on the palm of his hand when he grabbed a hot exhaust.
Another did the self same thing, but only a first-degree burn this time.

Another incident saw a broken hacksaw blade slicing through the skin adjacent to the knuckle. He was lucky that it did not catch any nerves / tendons.

Aside from these, we have only had small cuts and grazes, and one idiot that punched a wall in frustration, and broke his finger.

Therefore, in my opinion, we have done fairly well, and of coarse, there were a number of narrow escapes as well.

When we started three years ago, I thought that things would end up a lot worse.

Another point I have is that when we started I did not believe that formalised training schemes were necessary, but now I do. I believe there should be structured training given for all powered machinery and tooling. I honestly believe that engineering students can learn to use these tools in smart time given that they can be given appropriate training.

I also believe that finding "appropriate training"� is the most difficult task. I have seen to often that good tradesmen make FAR from excellent teachers, and that the traditional government training institutions are not as effective as we need them to be.

May I also add that I do not believe that our team's lack of incidents is due to pro-active policy from the university, nor due to lack of access to machines.

We are one of the teams that have NOT had supervision from an "academic supervisor"� and only last year did we have a dedicated "shop supervisor"�.

As for access to machinery, I believe all teams should have access to a drop saw, tig welder, a small lathe (belt driven), a drill press, angle grinders, bench grinders, files, and hand tools. I believe a reasonable curfew would be 11 pm or midnight.

I also believe that students should be appropriately trained in the use of these tools. Realistically though, a team only needs 3 or 4 lathe operators, but these people need quite a reasonable level of skills. They should also know how grind tools, and should have an appropriate bench grinder with the appropriate stone wheels, and a supply of tool steel.

I think it would be ideal that a team has 1 or 2 members with the skills to operate a milling machine, but I don't think that a team really needs their own milling machine.

Oh, I also think all members should have to take a first aid coarse before access to a machine shop.

I would like to ask you guys, exactly what is the worst incident you have had, and how many years have you been functional?

Regards all

Frank

[PatClarke]

Well said Frank,
It's been my experience that most shop injuries occur when enthusiasm exceeds abilities.
Training is needed as often new operators can not envisage the damage that can be done to them and other as well as equipment and your precious car by an error as simple as not removing the chuck key.
Meanwhile, how is the new job going?
Regards
PDR

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!

[IsheeM]

Denny,
I think a formal letter would help our cause a great deal. If you find the time to do this I would greatly appreciate it. You can email it to me; my address should be in my profile.


I am going to talk to some people in the industrial tech major and see if we can get some formal training on some of these machines to ease the mind of the admin. I am also going to try to compose a list of the schools and what type of access you guys have so if you have posted and left off your school name, please post the name. We wont be competing till '05 so, we have a little while to haggle with admin.

Thanks guys
Michael

[Michael Jones]

Just to clarify, our limits are mostly on our access to machines - lathes, mills, etc. Our lab space is our own and is 24/7. And yes, bad things go down.

Thumb (http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/mlj8/thumb.jpg)

Caused by an overenthusiastic attempt to press on an end on a throttle cable, of all things.

Shit happens. It's more a question of limiting the regularity and severity of shit happening.

In this case, if they stopped trying to make the hand press work and had legal access to the hydraulic press at that time, it wouldn't have happened at all. So, it's fully arguable that limiting access to the right tools creates even sketchier working conditions, since inevitably engineers will find some compromise solution to the problem.

As for training - I'd have to agree that shop supervisors don't necessarily make the best instructors (some do a good job though - our main guy is quite good...) and mandated training can be too abstract to be of any use (although our environmental health and safety folk have been good at listening to feedback and customizing training to meet our specific needs...) It's useful to cover the bases and very useful in presenting arguments to people in administration - training assuages their fears, even if the training itself is substandard.

In the end, though, you need a system of peer supervision in place, since most sketchy things are going to go down at random hours. I've seen the team here become a lot more responsible for its own ass, and that's a good thing. A large part of that is team buy-in regarding individual and collective responsibilities - in the end, the team is in charge of its affairs, but with that comes responsibility and accountability. Not only is it a more effective safety policy, it's very simple to administer in the end.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[Frank]

"In this case, if they stopped trying to make the hand press work and had legal access to the hydraulic press at that time, it wouldn't have happened at all. So, it's fully arguable that limiting access to the right tools creates even sketchier working conditions, since inevitably engineers will find some compromise solution to the problem."

So very common, so very true

Frank

[Denny Trimble]

Our Manager of Program Operations (shop supervisor +) just wrote up a description of our Shop Master and Shop Access policies for after-hours FSAE use. If anybody would like a copy to show their department, send me an email.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[IsheeM]

Have any teams been required to sign liability waivers to gain extended hours of access?

Michael

[gug]

we have tried to but no luck yet

[Big Daddy]

We sign waivers and the only keys to the shop are with the captian and vice captian of the two teams.

"A woman is a lot like a beer, they look good, smell good, and you would run over your own mother to get one." Homer Simpson

[Michael Jones]

Waivers are not sufficient anyway - any good lawyer can skirt around them as limited but not exclusive liability waivers, particularly if the shop is deemed to be an unsafe working environment in subsequent investigations.

You can't waive yourself from OHSA or EPA regs in the USA. I'd imagine it's similar in many other countries, but with perhaps more strength given to personal safety and responsibility and more protection institutionally from frivolous lawsuits. This is, after all, a country where you can spill coffee on yourself and sue for it being too hot, or smoke your lungs out and sue because you somehow missed the boat on the "smoking is bad for you" message. But general workplace safety and environmental protection isn't something you can just ignore without consequence as a rule.

I too have a bunch of regulations and policies at my disposal should anyone want any, including a few that I've been charged with compiliing and writing up recently.

I find it very amusing that I've been put in charge of pushing this out to the teams here. I may or may not have allegedly broken a few of these myself. I can't recall. It all depends what your definition of is is. I did not have sexual relations with that woman. Oh wait, maybe I did. I can't recall.


---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[IsheeM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Jones:
I too have a bunch of regulations and policies at my disposal should anyone want any, including a few that I've been charged with compiliing and writing up recently.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael,
Could you elaborate on what policies and regulations you have? Or these specifically for the FSAE teams or for the college as a whole.
Thanks
Michael

[Frank]

hehe

wanna hear a funny story.. i got "banned" from the workshop for 3 weeks and a AUS$250 fine for "unlicensed forklift usage, contrary to instruction"

I went and got a licence (in and out of the testing place in 3 hrs) just to show them yes.. i can drive one quite proficiently

Frank

[This message was edited by Frank on February 08, 2004 at 06:08 PM.]

[MattG]

The authorities won't care if you can or can't drive a hoist. What matters to them is (a)have you been given permission to do so,(b)do you have a license and (c)whose arse is on the line if someone gets hit by a hoist when the driver is unlicensed and has been instructed to not use the hoist.

As much as being concerned with safety they are making sure that if a buck has to stop somewhere, it's not with them.

[Michael Jones]

Agreed - much of training is certification and authentication. Whether or not you actually know things is immaterial in the eyes of many people. Kind of a variation of "it's not what you know, it's who you know." In this case, more "it's not what you know, it's who says what you know is actually known."

When you consider it your degrees operate along the same principle. Any schmo can read a textbook, after all. So, even though I do understand a great deal of FSAE-related topics and concerns, I have a feeling my certification as a Ph.D. student in Communication won't really show that, unless I explain why.

As for policies and procedures, I'm happy to pass on things or elaborate, but I'll need something a bit more precise as a request or I'll ramble on forever and ever. I can do that.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[Frank]

i guess what i wrote didn't come out right..

i think there's something ironic about it

anyways.. sorry for stirring the pot.. it was a dumb comment

[Michael Jones]

Nah, Frank, you're spot on of course. Certification is a bit of a farce in the end. If you can do something, you can do something. People just feel safer with people who can do things when said doing is OK'ed by others who supposedly are expert in doing things but haven't done things in a while.

Kind of like getting sex advice from Dr. Ruth.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[AnthonyB]

Just bumping an old thread. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We are in the same situation as the OP and I am currently working on a proposal for the dept head. Anyone have any new input on this subject? I do like the idea of getting some of us certified to supervise the lab after hours. Has anyone done this recently or have this system?

[CSULA Reid]

We have Lab Access 7 days a week from 7 am to 11 pm, but we have to have each member take a complete Safety Test administered by the Lab Technicians. We also have a swipe card access that they cancel if anyone breaks the rules.

As for the machines, we can use any of them in the shop, but to use any of the mills or lathes we have to take a class on Metal Machining. We also have all of the CNC equipment in a different lab and have to be supervised to use those.

[DanVaan]

Nice bump,

We are going through the same process at the University of Alberta as we begin to establish our Undergraduate Machine Shop. After talking with the MecE Shop Supervisor, we have agreed on a very similar arrangement to what has been discussed earlier. He is going to talk to the department chair soon to see if this can all work out. Also, to make it work, the student supervisors might end up getting paid in order to make them "shop employees" but we'll see if that actually happens.

We already have a good workspace that we have 24 hour access too, but we are not allowed to have machine tools or welders in that area, which really sucks. Hopefully this new area will also help us to get new members more involved.

[Chris Texas]

Our Team gets access to the shop any time 24 hrs a day, but we have to follow these rules:

1.everyone one of us has to go through a 4 hr certification class
2.fill out an approval form every time we work past hours
3.have 3 people in the shop at all times
4.fill out a person to contact in case of an emergency every time.

Any Mechanical engineer in our school can get the shop past hours if he follows those rules. It provides for graduate students to work late on research and our team a great way to get stuff done. We were up till 3:30 a.m. in the shop this past weekend.

As for safety, as far as i know, we've never had any major incidence in over 20 years of FSAE. In my experience, most injuries occur outside the shop due to using improper equipment that we do have access to inside the shop.

Chris Drew
Team Captain
THE University of Texas

[Brian S]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In my experience, most injuries occur outside the shop due to using improper equipment that we do have access to inside the shop.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats actually a really good point. Generally the kind of people who join FSAE are going to get it done. If we don't have access to the right tools, we will make do with what we have, so by giving shop access it actually makes things safer because we can use the right tools.