Road & Track

[Daves]

I was just flipping through the September 2003 issue, and I noticed an ad for their Road & Track onlne web exclusives. One of them is 2003 Formula SAE, located at http://www.roadandtrack.com/ (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=9&article_id=698&page_number=1). They will have more in the October issue.

"we are australian, so we arent thinking of having anal sex with it!" ~~ gug

[gug]

hmmm, is it good or bad that i have been quoted like that? its ego-inflating, anyway! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Daves]

It's neither good nor bad, yet it was immature of me.
While lookinag at the photos of the UTA and Missouri, Rolla car, I am wondering at what speeds do wings actually become effective. When taking a turn, there is translation and rotation, so parts of car (the back?) are actually going a bit faster than a speedometer would show. So what speed on a speedometer would be shown when the wings are actually useful?

[Daves]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> However our first major recognition of FSAE came during our Skidpad Challenge (February 1997) where the University of Texas, Austin's Faculty Advisor Dr. Bob Woods placed 5th in the Racing Class with an impressive 1.411 lateral g's. What's really impressive is that there were no wings used on that car; UTA didn't start using an aero package until 2001. ~~ from the Road & Track link <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So Shaun Bailey is stating that wings are obviously an improvement if applied correctly. My only concern is that they don't help you finish the endurance event.

[Chris Boyden]

We just came back from the UTA/SCCA autocross weekend a couple of weeks ago. The UTA cars with Aero stuck to the track like glue. The setup, aero, and drivers skills made for some fast laps. Any UTA guys care to post some G data? If I remember correctly, I think 1.7 g's were reached in a slalom in the '03 car.
We ran the '98 endurance and an SCCA autocross courses. The SCCA was a faster course.
Anyway, the aero package, including the tunnels, was pretty damn impressive. The downforce from their wings was applied to the wheel and not the chassis.

[Banacek]

Just to settle the wing thing once and for all (more or less anyways), would anyone care to share some CFD or wind tunnel data for their winged and un-winged cars at FSAE speeds? Just how much downforce do you get with the wings? How much drag?

It's been argued that the extra G's achieved with wings are due largely to the extra weight of the wings rather than the aero downforce (also reference to Vinh's note in another thread about running the heaviest drivers in skidpad).

Cheers,

Banacek

[gug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> origninally posted by Scott Wordley here (http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=763607348&f=125607348&m=2536074991&r=1136029912#1136029912) :
In the wind tunnel from wings alone we MEASURED 54kg of DF at 40km/h. Because the front wing measures low in the tunnel we EXPECT 70kg from the WINGS on track (see the dashed line on the graph). CFD indicates that with this setup we can expect a FURTHER 20kg from the diffusers. So we expect a grand total of around 90kg at 40km/h, or about half the weight of your car.

And you don't need to be generous by saying 50kg for wings, we didn't make them out of cast iron or anything. Both wings, mounts and diffusers weighed a total of 12kg, and they were heavier than they need to be. Expect around 9kg with bigger wings this year. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

have you read the thread above? there is no winged vs unwinged data, but there is lots of other data and argument.

i think most people dismiss drag as irrelevant because we are going too slow for it to come into effect. which sounds suspiciously like the same reason people dismiss wings as worthless...

ill be very interested in anyones winged vs unwinged wind tunnel tests too.

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Charlie]

Back on topic, thanks for the link, it is exciting to see us in there!

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[RiNaZ]

i just got a packet containing pictures and videos and all the datas during the UTA Autocross from Dr. Woods.

I saw a car yellowish/bronze color at the autocross. I think it's from Auburn University. It looks like it had a broken suspension arms. What happened charlie?

RiNaZ

[Brent Howard]

Auburns car is black.....a yellowish bronze car is one from a texas university....can't remember which one though.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[RiNaZ]

do you know what happened to its suspension arm?

RiNaZ

[Brent Howard]

No Idea, I wasn't at the SCCA/UTA event, I just remember from Detroit.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Daves]

Was this the car?

http://what3542.5u.com/dave/fsae/images/hubssmall.jpg

[RiNaZ]

yeah ... it had a broken A-arm in the picture during the texas autocross, just wondering what happened to it

RiNaZ

[Pavan Dendi]

Heh...I wish it was just a broken a-arm...that would have been much less of a pain in the arse to fix. What happened was that one of our rear hub bearings disintegrated. The rear hub was then being supported only by the bearing race in the upright, consequently destroying the upright. I'm the CNC monkey for the UT Austin team so I was the guy that got to make new uprights to get the car running again for the Arlington autocross weekend.

With the original uprights, we had an inadequate bearing design which was the reason why the bearing failed. This has been fixed with the new uprights...so far. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Oh yeah...we UT Austin folk like to call that there color Burnt Orange.

_____________________
UT Austin FSAE
http://www.me.utexas.edu/~fsae

[RiNaZ]

maybe you can show us a picture of the old design and the new design, so we can learn from your mistake? If it's not confidential that is.

p/s: that's one beautiful car you got there, wish you had more pictures of her on your website

RiNaZ

[mtg]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dave_s:
It's neither good nor bad, yet it was immature of me.
While lookinag at the photos of the UTA and Missouri, Rolla car, I am wondering at what speeds do wings actually become effective. When taking a turn, there is translation and rotation, so parts of car (the back?) are actually going a bit faster than a speedometer would show. So what speed on a speedometer would be shown when the wings are actually useful?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to see the Missouri-Rolla car in action, come to the SCCA Nationals in Topeka in September. We were just there this past weekend for a Solotime event with KU. Pictures are on our website.

www.umr.edu/~formula (http://www.umr.edu/~formula)

[Pavan Dendi]

Not sure why, but I had a major brain fart while typing that last post...the bearing issue was what had happened at Detroit, not Arlington.

Rinaz, the bearing fix was pretty much to use properly placed/sized bearings to support the rear hub and the loads that it sees. The old design had too small bearings that were close together...the new design uses larger bearings spaced farther apart to help take the moment from lateral forces.

Unfortunately, we had an entirely different problem at Arlington, and long story short, the car had front hubs from an older car which broke and jettisoned a wheel.

Thanks for the compliments on the car...we were very lucky to have a team member who is a bad@ss at paint and body work. We really do need more media on the website...hopefully this will be amended soon.

_____________________
UT Austin FSAE
http://www.me.utexas.edu/~fsae

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dave_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Dr. Bob Woods placed 5th in the Racing Class with an impressive 1.411 lateral g's. What's really impressive is that there were no wings used on that car; UTA didn't start using an aero package until 2001. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So Shaun Bailey is stating that wings are obviously an improvement if applied correctly. My only concern is that they don't help you finish the endurance event.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That statement is a BIG stretch. He's talking about a 200 ft skidpad, not what FSAE does. To say that he's saying wings are an obvious improvement in FSAE competition from what he's said there has no basis.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[fade]

nice looking car mtg http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif