how big is your team?

[ethanL007]

just curious as to team size, we currently have five (including myself), all are experienced in machining and/or metal fabrication. we are a first year team looking for what to expect. i am especially curious as to first year team size. thanks

ethan

[PSU Racing]

3 returning members last year.

15 returning members this year.

Garth Frederick
2004 Project Engineer
PSU Racing

1996-2002 Georgia Tech Motorsports Alumni

[BeaverGuy]

Last year our team had 45 people working on it, about half of them were there to do a senior project and weren't really interested in the car.

I think we only have about 5 returning members with 3 of them being seniors.
The core group of designers will be about 10 strong this year with a fair amount of design work by juniors.

[Charlie]

In 2000 we had 1 returning member. Myself and 5 others were freshmen with not much if any fabrication experience. We had 7 total members but we built a car that finished all events. We had a previous car to scavenge parts off though.

We have 16 returning members for 2004, our most ever by far. 8 are seniors.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sam Zimmerman]

Last year we had nine seniors from senior design and three underclassmen, all twelve being new members. We also had a new faculty advisor so we were essentially a rookie team.

This year we have four returning members and expect a team size of 15-18 people (though some will leave in December.)

Last year we finished 54th, this year we are going to knock Auburn out of the top five. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (Sorry about that Charlie, I couldn't resist.)

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)
5th Overall Detroit 2004 http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Charlie]

Well good luck! Sounds like you are of to a good start. I know how these things can work so no predictions from me, except our car will be better than the previous one. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[gug]

we currently have 21 members in my team (my team will be racing in dec '04). this is the first time any of us have done fsae. we have 2 ex-tradesmen, 3 amature drivers, several riceboys, and the rest of us dont have a clue. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
however, we have managed to get one subject this year donated towards fsae, so we have time and rooms set aside for meetings every week and have to have reports done by the end of the year that count towards marks. next year the car is our final year project and counts for 1/3 of our final year mark.
helps with the gpa a bit, since we are only expected to spend the normal amount of time on our fsae subjects. but our supervisor is a hard marker

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Frank]

4 guys with 2 years experience (includes two ex- team managers)

7 guys with 1 year experience

5 fresh members

1 tradesman (part-time member)

plus one "workshop advisor" who is a damn good tradesman http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .. that helps

[ethanL007]

wow, so the average team is well over 10. im not sure if i need to recruit more, the five that we have now has worked well together many times in the past. school starts in a week, soooo much to do. ill be talking to you guys a ton in the coming months, thanks for any and all input

ethan lessard
project manager UNH FSAE

[Charlie]

You always need to recruit more. Everything takes longer than you expect and you can relieve some of your load with extra new members.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ethanL007]

bwalby,

thank you, that was a very well written post. and i will remember that over the coming year. our team has grown to 9. a few underclassmen have been reading this board saw my few posts and took the initiative to contact me. i am excited to have them.

still wondering about those first year teams.

ethan lessard
project manager UNH FSAE

[gug]

huh? you have had guys who have gone out and found this board on their own and approached you? your lucky to find such interested people! half the people already in a team either cant be bothered or dont know about this board!

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[ethanL007]

that is correct, and one of them is an EE major. i am ecstatic. all we had before was 5 senior MEs, and now we have 7 senior MEs, 1 sophmore ME, 1 sophmore EE, and 1 sophmore criminal justice major. i think we are now going to end up with an accounting grad student to help with the cost report.

ethan lessard
project manager UNH FSAE

[This message was edited by ethanL007 on August 29, 2003 at 07:57 AM.]

[Michael Jones]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bwalby:
The more people you can have below this "top" level of 5-8 people, the more crazy and interesting things you can try and the more efficient you become in manufacturing. This is how we are now seeing top teams (Cornell, Wollongong, Mizzou-Columbia, Ga. Tech, to name only a few) that are now in the realm of finishing months before competition with manufacturing.

It still comes down to management of all these people. But 5-8 are getting the job done. The rest, well managed, are figuring out how to become one of that core as they get closer to graduation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Completely true, and the larger the team is, the harder it can be (and the more resources required) to manage it.

I think you can pull off a decent effort with a core group of 5-8, plus outside assistance. The devil's in the details, though, and even with 25-30, we find some way of having numerous details left over to consider. I have a lot of respect for teams of 10 or less who can field a running car, much less a competitive one.

The core-periphery distinction is important too - especially understanding why the peripheral folk are so. It's not necessarily a bad thing to have peripheral people - some are newbies learning the ropes, some are experienced folk who, for various reasons, prefer to focus on smaller segments of the larger pie. Newbies are essential for organizational development and regeneration after attrition, and many do gradually move into core roles. Specialists might not do enough to be core, but what they do they do well and lighten the load of the core folk.

Of course, some are peripheral because they suck or are wandering around lost. They're the real challenge for management and require the most attention.

---
Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[D Mack - CMT]

Ethan, our team is a first year team and I can say that what Brian posted is 100% true. The size of our team varies from week to week, hehe. Its not a laughing matter though as the core group is doing all the work and dont kid yourself, its a lot of work! A lot! Its not just the car you have to build, you have to market the team to get money and all this other stuff that you have to get on top of.
We have about 8-10 core members that are doing the work, with a few more that linger about. The team we started with was about 15 or so Engineering students. You need to start with a larger number than 5 or 8 because there will be casualties and building an sae car is more than a few blokes can handle and still maintain any kind of gpa.
Also, my advice to you is that planing and management is the key! Its all fine and good to have 50-100 people interested, but what we find is that if you cant assign specific tasks with clear instructions they get scared away and slowly walk away.

Hope this helps.

Oh, one more bit of advice, make sure the team manager is not involved in any design or building. There simply is not enough time to manage and design/build.


Dusko Mackoski
Curtin Motorsport Team

[Brent Howard]

I really think that it is best to only have a core of 8-12 people, rather than a large team. I think if the team is too large, even if everyone is committed, everything gets messed up. With a large team it takes a long time to make decisions because everyone has their area that they feel is most important. Little projects, like fuel tank or even chain gaurd, take a long time because everyone wants to research, test, build, test, rebuild, etc... With a smaller group you can just make decisions and go with it. You solve alot of integration issues quickly with a small team.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Scott Wordley]

I love your comment Dusko:

"Oh, one more bit of advice, make sure the team manager is not involved in any design or building. There simply is not enough time to manage and design/build."

Are you serious?! Has your leader managed to do this?

PS hows the car coming?

Regards,

Scott Wordley

http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~fsae

[D Mack - CMT]

Scott, "Has your leader managed to do this?"
Umm... I will let you know if I have on December 7th. hehe

I think the car is going ok, I can shamelessly point you to our excellent website and you can see for yourself. Feel free to check out our excellent sponsors, and when you visit them, mention I sent you to receive a discount.
http://www.cage.curtin.edu.au/~curtinmotorsport/

Another thing I want to stress is sponsorship. It will make or brake you!

And at the time of writing the Engineering team here is 20 strong. Its working out good for us, but I do agree with the point made by Brent that if the size is too big it takes too long to make decisions.

Dusko Mackoski
Curtin Motorsport Team

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by D Mack - CMT:
Oh, one more bit of advice, make sure the team manager is not involved in any design or building. There simply is not enough time to manage and design/build.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We've never had anything liek that. Our 'manager' has always done lots of design and fabrication.

And while I agree that more members can delay design decisions, that is only if your captain is afraid to draw the line, and just say DO IT. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Michael Jones]

There is something to be said for restricting management participation in design and manufacturing. They should coordinate more, do less.

However, it's a hard line to draw in practice, and some leader participation in work sessions can be positive.

The best team leaders I've seen here spend about 60-70% of their time doing management, training, mentoring, coordination and systems integration. Those who work more than lead are appreciated but prove to be less effective leaders as they otherwise could've been - and freely admit to it in retrospect.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[Ben Hatfield]

Ethan, My Name is Ben Hatfield from the University of Ballarat in Australia. We are also a first year team looking to compete in the Oz comp in 2004. At the moment we have an engineering team of 27, with a range of final year to first year students. We also have a marketing/finance team of about 5 including our team manager who is a marketing/management student. The core group as bwalby stated is about 10. However, at this stage everyone is still very keen and progress is slow but constant. Hopefully with this number and a good core group, if or when people start to fall away we can compensate for it. Good luck with your team and all teams competing at Tailem Bend in December.

--
Ben Hatfield
University of Ballarat
FSAE-A 2004

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.
- Barry LePatner

[ethanL007]

wow, 33 people for a first year team. we are at 10 including 2 underclasmen and a criminology major. i think that we are getting pretty close to capacity as far as ease of management is concerned. the idea of capping team size has been mentioned within my team, but i am very reluctant to exclude possible enthusiastic members.

Ethan Lessard
Team Captain
UNH Precision Racing

[Oliver]

I think that it doesn't matters if the team is big, what really matters is the organization and that everyone knows their responsabilities and which are the decisions that can make. The chiefs of each division give works and projects to their people, giving them the opportunity to propose their ideas but at the end who have the last word is the chief and there are not reasons to delay decisions.

On the other hand, i think the people who are in charge of the management of the project
must be less involved in the design of the car, in order to have enough time to find good sponsors and put to the team on the right way.

In conclusion, everyone has to do what everyone has to do, in this way each member concentrate on his work and try to make it as well as possible.

Oliver M. Sánchez R.
Team Leader
Universidad Simón BolÃ*var
VENEZUELA

[Big Bird]

I'd just like to say that we've had a bit to do with the new team at Ballarat and what they are setting up is very impressive. Their faculty advisor is a former lecturer here at RMIT who has been pretty well involved in our team for the last three years, so he knows all the pitfalls. (And we have made plenty of mistakes for them to learn from!). It seems their uni is right behind the project too, and Ben and the guys really seem to have their heads around the project for a crew of first-timers.

All the best lads, I think you will surprise a few people in 2004.

Cheers,

Geoff Pearson
RMIT FSAE 2003

Design it. Build it. Break it.

[Frank]

seem like QUT is going to start up also...

we'll give em a hand too

ditto the "plenty of mistakes to learn from" around here too

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Frank

[inamo]

As a team manager who was involved heavily in the design and manufacture stages of last years car I'd be inclined to say that ideally the team manager should be someone who is solely responsible for ensuring the project is on track and that everyone is actually doing what they say they are. Trying to balance racing cars and academic work will always be a headache but if everyone's roles are clearly defined and stuck to the team will work more effectively.

Last year we had a huge problem because our sponsorship team didn't contact any sponsors until the 2nd semester. Every time they were asked how it was going - the reply was "it's fine, all under control"

Finally don't underestimate the use of 1st and 2nd years, if treated with some car and occasionally given a drive they will work very hard, and learn lots for coming years. It's a godsend to have some gofers ;-p Though some of us don't manage to kick the habit and still run round like loonies in our final year!

[Nick Gidwani]

MIT's team has 7 returning members from last year (our whole team) and 5-6 new guys (mostly freshman).

[ethanL007]

we are now up to 12 members, but we are all first year FSAE. UNH is a first year FSAE team, so no returning members. Where are all of the first year teams at? we are coming along, we have some framing material that we are working on, engine simulation in Ricardo will start sometime this week, we should have the ECU ordered within the next week. first year teams hit me.

Ethan Lessard
Team Captain
UNH Precision Racing
www.domesticpc.com/fsae (http://www.domesticpc.com/fsae)

[gug]

you could call us a first year team, none of us have done f-sae before. there is another team from our uni, designing for this years event, but we dont actually do anything on that car.

so 15 months away from us racing, we are doing the chassis design and fea at the moment. almost everything is decided on (ie, engine, transmission, shocks) and is now being modeled in CAD.

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[ethanL007]

15 months, wow. FSAE-A 2004? from the sounds of it we are only marginally ahead of gug, but we are racing in 8 months.

Ethan Lessard
Team Captain
UNH Precision Racing
www.domesticpc.com/fsae (http://www.domesticpc.com/fsae)

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

Technically we're a rookie team too, so far we have five members this year...(hey, still a 67% improvement over last year) The good thing is that it makes management issues very transparent, and we might get to know the overall design better than if we were working in a larger, highly compartmented team.

On the flip side, I probably don't need to expound on how a fifteen-person team will get more work done.

By the way, if I may go on a slight tangent, how are you first-year guys dealing with sponsorship issues? I mean from our end it looks like a top-notch vicious circle...we don't have a particularly attractive product yet (although the car is closer to completion than it looks), so it's tough to convince a shop to donate, say, safety equipment, when they see this hulking mess of tubing that screams "DEATHTRAP". In turn, no money = no cool bodywork with nice stickers. So how do you go about presenting what is in essence a paper project? I'd appreciate any insight- we get by on school subventions, but "getting by" involves running on stock carbs and used tires, so it's a long way to Detroit...

Marc
ENAF1

[Charlie]

Be a salesman- if you aren't one, find someone who is. Paper is all you've got so make a really good paper sponsor proposal. Use photos of other cars, and CAD renderings if you have them. It's a fascinating project, sell it! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[gug]

yep, fsae-a 2004. we are looking to have a ton of testing time, cause that is what gets results. but i know that it will still be a great big rush to get it finished on schedule, you dont need to be able to see the future to guess that one. the car is also looking a bit complicated at the moment, so that extra time will probably come in handy.

on the marketing side of things, we are planning on sending out a cd (maybe one of those business card size cds?) with our paper proposal, with some interactive stuff on it. we are hoping that will get some more attention, because not only is it more striking than some paper, sponsors will also be able to click on what they want to see (technical details, competition details, team structure, stuff about our uni etc.). anyone ever done the cd thing before? does it work?

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[gug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie:
Use photos of other cars, and CAD renderings if you have them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dont tell your chassis people, but the real use for all those rainbow coloured pictures (FEA) that they produce is in the proposal. same goes for aero (CFD).

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

Hehe, that's exactly what we told ourselves when we first started messing around with FEA http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fox]

It is very interesting to read how big all these teams are. But it is a pitty to see that they are noted as number of people instead of available man hours. What I mean is that 10 full time (8 hours a day) people is something different from 40 people spending an average of 4 hours a week.

[Michael Jones]

Recorded person-hours over the 2002 year. About 21K, spread over 30 people, average about 25 hours a week, slightly less in the fall, more in the spring semester. Leaders about 50 hours a week, core people about 30-40, others around 15-20.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[RiNaZ]

My school has been trying to compete for 7 years already. And i personally have been involved with FSAE since i was a freshmen (early 99).

My last team leader told me that "we're an aeronautical school, we're gonna kick all the FSAE er's butt at the competition with our wing design". Very ambitious for a first year team who didnt know that 90% of the FSAE teams didnt have a wing.

Im a senior now, and we still dont know if we're going to the competition simply becoz, SAE raised the entry fees to 600 dollars! (it's amazing what kind of excuses my leaders could come up with especially when you worry about a 600 dollar fee when you're building a 25000 dollar car).

Now, i have to listen to the team leader who's making the chasis as long as twice a regular FSAE car becoz it will make the track narrower and get thru the corner easier. Why he could care less about what the team thinks is becoz ... well let me just quote him on this ... "until you put your own money into it, you can say whatever you want ..."

So how big is my team? considering the egos and all the asses ... big ... VERYYYY big ...

RiNaZ

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>About 21K, spread over 30 people, average about 25 hours a week, slightly less in the fall, more in the spring semester. Leaders about 50 hours a week, core people about 30-40, others around 15-20.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Holy crap http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I hope you guys are getting course credit for FSAE work.

[Denny Trimble]

At Week 2 of Fall Quarter, UW is at 42 students. Let's just say management is a large task. We usually end up with 35 people going to Detroit. The participation gradient goes from 40+ hrs/wk down to 5. Students do get class credit, but only as juniors (1cr/quarter) and seniors (3cr/quarter). Freshmen, Sophomores, and Grad Students are all volunteers.

Denny Trimble
Cat Herder
UWFSAE

[Michael Jones]

Yep, course credit is part of the deal, although this year, freshmen are volunteers supervised by seniors and juniors to minimize burnout and provide more structured mentorship to the team. Working pretty well so far.

All others involved full-time get 3cr, 4 for leaders. M.Eng and seniors can use it for their thesis project/senior design project as well.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[gug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Jones:
M.Eng and seniors can use it for their thesis project/senior design project as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> do you mean one aspect of the car, eg. the ecu? or can you just be a member of the team and do various jobs?
how much of Cornell's success to you attribute to being able to get course credit? adelaide uni (my uni) has sort of the same set up. fsae counts for 1/3 of our final year mark. so im hoping you say bugger all, then we dont have to live up to Cornell's standards. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[mizzouracing]

we have about 20 returning and 5-10 new members

[A Reinke]

its always interesting to see other teams counts. grad students as well.

this is NIU's fourth year in FSAE. interestingly enough we've had only had a few people graduate.

we have about 25 memebers this year at the start of the year. i suspect that number may drop to 20, but i'd like to be proven wrong.

5 members are in their fourth year.
7 members are in their third year.
3 members in their second year.
10 are new.

we have no solid faculty advisor, and two excellent machinists.

i'm still impressed we roll out with a finished car every year. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Adam

[DoItDoug]

VT has 24 senior team members (23 ME, 1 EE...we're trying to expand into the other departments). These seniors receive senior design credit during the fall and spring.
We take on approx 20 volunteers (freshman through juniors) and drop/add as we see how much work they're contributing. We actually have to set up an application process b/c we get so many volunteers (upwards of 50 every September).
We do have a faculty advisor who oversees meetings and gives grades for bi-weekly reports, pesentations, and logbooks.
The seniors do all of their own design, machining, and fabrication. Machining can only be done after taking the 2 hour certification class with the lab supervisor. Volunteers can do this as well, but not until all the seniors complete it.
We have 2 returning seniors this year (5th year, done in December) and 5 or 6 returning juniors who are now senior team members. We're constantly working on a way to keep the volunteers involved with new design projects for their senior year...tough to do for some reason.

Doug Temple
'02 VT FSAE
www.vtmotorsports.com (http://www.vtmotorsports.com)