The Dreaded L-Word

[M3Shark]

I know every team on here has had to face it at one point or another with their school. You know... That 9 letter word that is the death of all testing efforts at university's around the world.... "Liability".... usually preceded by "sorry, we can't let you do that because of...".

We have been trying for a long time now to get our school to allow us to test in a parking lot at school. no matter how much we go on about our safety precautions we will put in place during testing. Full Suits, Helmets, blocked off parking lot to keep other traffic out, fire extinguishers,willing to sign waivers, etc. we always get told the same thing."Sorry, can't do it because of Liability."

I know there are other teams out there have been able to get their school to allow them to use the parking lots. What did you finally say/do to convince the university to allow you to do it.

Thank you.

[M3Shark]

I know every team on here has had to face it at one point or another with their school. You know... That 9 letter word that is the death of all testing efforts at university's around the world.... "Liability".... usually preceded by "sorry, we can't let you do that because of...".

We have been trying for a long time now to get our school to allow us to test in a parking lot at school. no matter how much we go on about our safety precautions we will put in place during testing. Full Suits, Helmets, blocked off parking lot to keep other traffic out, fire extinguishers,willing to sign waivers, etc. we always get told the same thing."Sorry, can't do it because of Liability."

I know there are other teams out there have been able to get their school to allow them to use the parking lots. What did you finally say/do to convince the university to allow you to do it.

Thank you.

[Drew Price]

We didn't ask anyone.

We do exactly the things you described, cone off the lot, (multiple) fire extinguishers out, make sure lot is empty, don't run the course near any curbs / pylons / lights, etc.

We test starting early in the morning, around 5:30-6:00am before anyone shows up for work, and then in the evenings when people have trickled out of our favorite lot.

The secret? It's easier to ask forgiveness from the lawyers, and the only people who ever stop to watch us testing are the University Police officers, who think the car is the coolest thing ever and want to shoot the breeze with us. They thought it looked plenty legit what we were doing, and never questioned if we had permission to begin with, and now it's pretty established to see us out there.

Real problem is getting up at 4:30 to get over to the shop and get everything prepped, and then have the gusto for classes afterwards....


Best,
Drew

[vreihen]

If you're state-side, you can always contact Naughton or K&K Insurance about an autocross event policy for your testing days.

http://www.naughtoninsurance.com/

http://www.kandkinsurance.com/

It might cost you a little money and possibly require you to recruit the assistance from a local autocross club or SCCA region for their "experience" on the certificates, but it should satisfy your school's risk management department.

You might also want to try contacting your local SCCA region and see if they would be willing to sanction a test & tune for your team. For what it's worth, I have a standing offer on the table for all NYC-area teams to provide the equipment (for free) and insurance (at cost) if someone can obtain the use of a suitable parking lot to host an FSAE test & tune event.....

[roepke44]

wow, 5:30 testing, that's hardcore. then go to class? dude...

[exFSAE]

Or find a local business that will let you test in their lot after hours.

[Tim.Wright]

Wear hi-vis vests. Stand around like you know what you're doing. Boss people around and shit... It's all about confidence.

You can get away with anything in a hi-vis shirt.

Tim Wright
Compulsory Life Member
Curtin Motorsport

[woodsy96]

We sort of did the same thing as Drew, except that we just stick to late night testing (start ~11pm), once the carpark is empty. We mainly just use this as a shakedown area, because curbs + wheel = bad.

Most of our serious testing is done at an out of town dragstrip. We pay them a certain amount per year (about $700NZ) to cover their ACC costs (in NZ there is a corporation that pays out money to cover costs of accidents), and they let us use their dragstrip during weekdays when it isn't in use for other stuff.

[D Collins Jr]

Don't bother calling K&K. They just sent us back a ridiculous quote for the liability that we're now required to have. Hasnn't been a problem for 15 years, but now all of a sudden, well, let's just say I don't see eye to eye with the parking lot administration. I'll assume that Naughton was the other underwriter contacted on our behalf. They wouldn't even write us a quote.

What we've typically done is to practice at our school's basketball arena parking lot. people always will be obstinate and drive through our blockades, which only got really annoying the last time when it was a cop and he couldn't understand why i was upset. Since we can't practice there right now (or for that matter, in the month of May when the place is apparently booked everyday), we've started going to a nearby go kart track. They let us out for a very modest fee, and we can test all day. Problem is the tracks too big, and its still open to the public, so we can't go out and cone things off.

There's no real good way around this problem except for one, and that's what Drew said. But for legal reasons, you didn't hear that from me.

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by roepke44:
wow, 5:30 testing, that's hardcore. then go to class? dude... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you go to class? noob

[Wes Burk]

At Buffalo we have been able to test as long as I can remember. We just notify our University Police and tell them which parking lot we are going to, block it off with cones, fire extinguishers the usual etc. Don't recall anything about an official decision ever made. From what i heard at a recent FSAE conference we are actually very lucky and many teams can't test on campus. I know that if something were to happen to us we would be covered under our student association insurance (they manage all the clubs) in many cases, you can try to set something like that up. Check if you are covered by some sort of your school's insurance when you go to competition, and see if you can expand it to testing on campus.

When we visit our sponsors we take the car and let them drive in their parking lot or a nearby one we can get a hold of, such as a church or large store. Haven't had too much difficulty before getting a hold of one before.

Once they forgot to call out to all the patrol cars that we would be testing and we got pulled over by a pissed cop who hadn't heard of us before. It was interesting...

And theres still snow on the ground here http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Superfast Matt McCoy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M3Shark:
I know every team on here has had to face it at one point or another with their school. You know... That 9 letter word that is the death of all testing efforts at university's around the world.... "Liability".... usually preceded by "sorry, we can't let you do that because of...".

We have been trying for a long time now to get our school to allow us to test in a parking lot at school. no matter how much we go on about our safety precautions we will put in place during testing. Full Suits, Helmets, blocked off parking lot to keep other traffic out, fire extinguishers,willing to sign waivers, etc. we always get told the same thing."Sorry, can't do it because of Liability."

I know there are other teams out there have been able to get their school to allow them to use the parking lots. What did you finally say/do to convince the university to allow you to do it.

Thank you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a new movie out this weekend where they just race right out on the streets. Hot Asian chicks and all. It looks totally imitatable.

But seriously, I second the "look like you're supposed to be there and nobody will question it" and "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission". Words to live by, but if you have already repeatedly been told no, then it's probably too late for both of those approaches. Time to ask churches and malls with parking lots.

[Gabe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Drew Price:
We didn't ask anyone.

We do exactly the things you described, cone off the lot, (multiple) fire extinguishers out, make sure lot is empty, don't run the course near any curbs / pylons / lights, etc.

The secret? It's easier to ask forgiveness from the lawyers, and the only people who ever stop to watch us testing are the University Police officers, who think the car is the coolest thing ever and want to shoot the breeze with us. They thought it looked plenty legit what we were doing, and never questioned if we had permission to begin with, and now it's pretty established to see us out there.

Best,
Drew </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly how we do it. Our team motto is its better to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission

[Grant Mahler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Drew Price:
We didn't ask anyone.

We do exactly the things you described, cone off the lot, (multiple) fire extinguishers out, make sure lot is empty, don't run the course near any curbs / pylons / lights, etc.

We test starting early in the morning, around 5:30-6:00am before anyone shows up for work, and then in the evenings when people have trickled out of our favorite lot.

The secret? It's easier to ask forgiveness from the lawyers, and the only people who ever stop to watch us testing are the University Police officers, who think the car is the coolest thing ever and want to shoot the breeze with us. They thought it looked plenty legit what we were doing, and never questioned if we had permission to begin with, and now it's pretty established to see us out there.

Real problem is getting up at 4:30 to get over to the shop and get everything prepped, and then have the gusto for classes afterwards....


Best,
Drew </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We did actually contact risk management, parking, athletics, alumni, the dean of the department, and several other people. They all pointed fingers at each other. I got ahold of the president of the university and all was cleared. We were given much leeway on testing in the future, which is why we are able to go out on a regular basis now.

I'd suggest contacting the uni president, and see if they can clear the path for you if you are having trouble with this. Tread lightly though.

[JamesWolak]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by roepke44:
wow, 5:30 testing, that's hardcore. then go to class? dude... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you go to class? noob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously he is not a true FSAE team member. I think 80% of our testing is done after mid night.

[Drew Price]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JamesWolak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by roepke44:
wow, 5:30 testing, that's hardcore. then go to class? dude... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you go to class? noob </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously he is not a true FSAE team member. I think 80% of our testing is done after mid night. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



The lot that is smooth enough for us to test (paved two years ago, super nice low aggregate surface) is right behing the Uni's 'on-campus-hotel,' where there are 3 star prepared dinners and luxury suites for visiting lecturers, intellectuals, guests of the University admin, people like that.

People who do not like racing cars romping outside their windows at midnight.

So we play by the rules in that regard.

Besides, we all know acknowledging classes is just cursory so close to comp. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif



Best,
Drew

[D Collins Jr]

A brief rant on this subject before I go to my class/naptime:
Our "Practice Lot" has given us considerable trouble over the years. In fact, if you search Oklahoma and Practice, there's a nice thread from two years ago. Recently, someone decided that we need liability coverage, not for our members or racecar, but for the damage that we would do to something we hit (presumably another person's car or a concrete barrier). In order to get coverage, we have to block off entrances to the lot as to prevent traffic from pouring through our practice area. Then, the facility manager will routinely come by and tell us that the barricading is not allowed. But if we don't do it, we can't drive. Last time out, an off-duty campus cop rolled through our roadblocks, seemingly oblivious to the fact that a car was racing.

I hate insurance.

[Mikey Antonakakis]

Hey, at least you have a parking lot to break the rules in!

It's important to keep your thinking positive this time of year http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif