Formula SAE West 2009 Competition: - Updates, Pictures, Stories, and More

[James Waltman]

Time to open the thread for all things Formula SAE West 2009.

Good luck to everyone.

(Maybe I should have named this Formula SAE California 2009...)

[James Waltman]

Time to open the thread for all things Formula SAE West 2009.

Good luck to everyone.

(Maybe I should have named this Formula SAE California 2009...)

[joeshmo]

WO HOO! Sitting in PHX airport waiting to get to cali! Ill update as much as possible. You going to be in cali this year james???

[James Waltman]

Yep, just got in.

[kira_vtec]

Good luck Brazilian teams! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[DanVaan]

Made it through Tech on the first try. What a relief.

Only 40 teams have showed up so far, hopefully a few more come tomorrow.

No pictures yet, too busy getting ready for tech. Time to eat and prepare for design presentation tomorrow.

[colleyb]

Anyone care to post their race weights?

[DanVaan]

We were unable to do the official weigh-in today because Sunoco hadn't brought the race fuel in yet. It should be here at 7am tomorrow so we can all get weighed before the design presentation.

[Kevin Dunn]

Very unproductive day...Stood in line to get registered from 8am-11:30am. Had lunch and then came back to wait for tech...which never happened for us yet. About 12 more cars and we'll be up.

Loving California though. It's LTU's first time out so we're pretty excited about the whole deal.

[kira_vtec]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kevin Dunn:
Very unproductive day...Stood in line to get registered from 8am-11:30am. Had lunch and then came back to wait for tech...which never happened for us yet. About 12 more cars and we'll be up.

Loving California though. It's LTU's first time out so we're pretty excited about the whole deal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Kevin Viado!!

We hope you guys do well!

Good luck to you and your team!

Sabóia!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kirk Feldkamp]

News flash from Waltman (via text):
Design Semifinals! Western Washington, R.I.T., Oregon State, Washington, Kansas, Auburn, and Missouri S&T

On another note (via Cal FSAE's twitter page [twitter.com/calfsae]):
Oregon State's front suspension pulled out and collapsed during the brake test. They've got to redo their front
(about 4 hours ago from TwitterFon)

-Kirk

[js10coastr]

Thanks for the updates guys... wish I was there to have a chat again, but Turner duties called and so I'm in Ohio. Any favorites so far?

[Rachel]

Haha, I wish every team would update on twitter!

**edit: maybe I'll update on twitter tomorrow but I'm not competing or judging so I don't know how exciting it will be.

[ntrettel]

Washington is updating via twitter as well. twitter.com/uwfsae

[Kemper]

well, a little bit on the "fat" side, but KAIST got 537 pounds. Im happy that we almost managed to do 25% of the weight on each wheel (49/51 front/rear, 49.8/50.2 left/right)

im happy that our first car made through tech without significant mods thou. tomorrow brake/noise test

[Rachel]

Alright I'll be at twitter.com/rachel_racing

[mtg]

Are you guys going to make me join twitter to get any competition updates?

So far, the most info I've seen was from the Waltman text.

C'mon, let's see some pics and trash talk.

[rkellz007]

...I second Matt's comments.

I am definitely loving all the Twitter, but where are the pics? There are some serious junkies out here jonesing for their fix....

thanks - ryan

[Schulberg J]

Some pictures from West:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/schulbergo/

- Jason
Cal Poly SLO FSAE
2002-2006

[Sam Zimmerman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
News flash from Waltman (via text):
Design Semifinals! Western Washington, R.I.T., Oregon State, Washington, Kansas, Auburn, and Missouri S&T

On another note (via Cal FSAE's twitter page [twitter.com/calfsae]):
Oregon State's front suspension pulled out and collapsed during the brake test. They've got to redo their front
(about 4 hours ago from TwitterFon)

-Kirk </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congrats to the semi-finals.

Would love to be there. I am glad that WWU made the semis.

[FStotal.com]

First informations from California competition.

You got results? Please help us to fill out this overview via twitter, comments, mail[a_e_t]fstotal.com or at this post at fsae.com.

http://www.fstotal.com/news/fo...rmula-sae-california (http://www.fstotal.com/news/formula-sae-west/404-2009-formula-sae-california)

[mtg]

Wow, Oregon has a really light car:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/schulbergo/3641675250/

Like I said, really light:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3374/3641675930_43912aec21.jpg?v=0

And, Maryland made quite the rear wing change between Detroit and Cali.

[Travis Garrison]

Damnit, I'm not joining twitter. Congratulations to all the design semi and design final teams; you've got some good looking cars.

[rkellz007]

Travis,

Could be wrong but I think you can see tweets without joining.

www.twitter.com/uwfsae (http://www.twitter.com/uwfsae)

Rachel is putting up some good stuff too.

Just got off the phone with Bryan - suspension lead. Sounds like UW is looking good overall (making a few assumptions about accel, skid, and how things shake out between the top two in desing). I think they are a little bummed that they didn't make design finals, but very happy with the easy points they scored by massively improving Presentation over the team's normal placement (points is points as they say).

[Sam Zimmerman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Travis Garrison:
Damnit, I'm not joining twitter. Congratulations to all the design semi and design final teams; you've got some good looking cars. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonconformist. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


I'm not joining either.

[rkellz007]

Travis,

I think you can see the tweets without logging in or joining (could be wrong).

www.twitter.com/uwfsae (http://www.twitter.com/uwfsae)

Just spoke with Bryan from UW (suspension lead). They are feeling pretty good, although a little dissapointed to not make finals. Some consolation in their Business Presentation score. They are feeling good overall.

ryan

[mtg]

For us non-twitter types, there is an official university blog that should have regular updates from S&T:

http://experiencethis.mst.edu/formula_sae/

[rjwoods77]

Go Cal Poly Go!!! No wing this time?

[FStotal.com]

please help to complete this list of results and news:

http://fstotal.com/news/formul...rmula-sae-california (http://fstotal.com/news/formula-sae-west/404-2009-formula-sae-california)

[Rachel]

Last I heard, SLO was having trouble passing brake. They missed accel and skid pad.

[Bandeira]

Hello Guys,

Do we have news from the Brazilian Teams? Cars #11 and #76?

Cheers!

[Wildcat_Alum]

Here are some Autocross pics.
I haven't sorted through them, and I'm not a great photographer, I caught the last half, and watched Rochester Institute of Technology pull a 62.xx, for time of the day.

http://jonschwab.smugmug.com/g...cd/1/568587098_UgCxt (http://jonschwab.smugmug.com/gallery/8619431_rQbcd/1/568587098_UgCxt)

*I'll try to go through and remove the blurry pictures, and the ones that seem to be missing cars.

[D Collins Jr]

Day 3 Update:

So, this is unofficial of course, and doesn't include the Auto-X scores, but here's the way things look from our score sheets:

Design Finals: Oregon State & Rochester

Cost won by RIT
Presentations won by SLO
Skidpad won by Missouri-Rolla
Acceleration won by RPI
Autocross won by RIT (unposted to date)

Top ten in points looks something like this:
RIT
Oregon State
Missouri S&T
RPI
Maryland
Washington
Oklahoma
Illinois
Auburn
Cal Poly Pomona

Lots of cars dead on the track today at Auto-X. Washington got a couple of wheels airborn, would be really excellent if someone could post pictures. Right now, it looks like it's RIT's event to lose. They've been top 3 in every event and hold a 40-50 point lead on the field. For comparative purposes, that's more than what separates positions 2-10. Everyone will know more of course when the Enduro run order gets posted.

Good luck to everyone tomorrow, and especially on their return trips home!

[Nice Vans]

By the way here is a sweet accel video of Kansas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI

[BeaverGuy]

For those of you that keep saying "Oregon" there is no Oregon car, only Oregon State. Oregon is the green and yellow school located further to the south and without an engineering program. We aren't all that fond of them and even less found of being referred to as them. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Go Beavs. Bring this home and make it a BSAE and FSAE double.

[rkellz007]

Josh,

Given the picture at the beginning of this page of posts I am not sure that the 'other' Oregon has an engineering program either ;-)

ryan

----ARRRGHHHHH, the rick roll..... I suppose that's what I get.

[Wildcat_Alum]

Washington on 3 wheels:
http://jonschwab.smugmug.com/p...68598581_eHFaR-M.jpg (http://jonschwab.smugmug.com/photos/568598581_eHFaR-M.jpg)

[Crispy]

If you are interested in some more information about our suspension failure you should check out this video that describes a similar failure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0LPUI0lfVw

Go Beavs

[Jersey Tom]

Autocross results...?

#1 - Goodyear
#2 - Goodyear
#3 - Goodyear

I dig it. Can't wait to see how enduro shakes out.

[Kemper]

hey, does anybody have pics of the indian car? i forgot to take some, ill try to get it tomorrow.

anyway, today was "game over" for us. maybe because of excessive inclination of the engine, the rear cylinder of our SXV550 wasnt getting proper lubbing and blew right in the middle of noise test. at least we learned a lot to be used on our next car.

now, I was watching the last minutes of auto-x and a car which I dont remember where is it from got some engine problems. I guess they DNF'd right after Saskachewan car's DNF. It was a tiny car that was having serious acceleration issues, I think the color was either black or dark something. I would like to know what happened to them

[BeaverGuy]

I think you might be talking about University of Washington's car. From their twitter page it says that they had a transmission failure but have since swapped engines and are ready for tomorrow.

[Mike T.]

Maybe I'm just a little bitter, but am I the only one that thinks it's a little odd that a car that broke it's front suspension in the brake test made it to the design finals? Seems like that sort of failure must have resulted from a major design flaw that a judge should have caught on to. Looks like a low angle pull rod causing a little too much compression in the upper control arm from the picture.

[rkellz007]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike T.:
Maybe I'm just a little bitter, but am I the only one that thinks it's a little odd that a car that broke it's front suspension in the brake test made it to the design finals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Mike, you are not the only one - but then again I have almost exactly the same bias as you. Had it happened in a real dynamic event after 100's of hours of testing due to fatigue then maybe I could see it. But total failure during the baseline 1x-proof test??? C'mon - someone didn't carry the two, not finals sort of stuff.

On the other hand... When we tested with OSU last year it was pretty clear that they had some VERY sharp folks who recieved a little more formal grounding in what makes a race car quick than is provided at Washington. Their suspension guy last year (who graduated but I think was returning as a grad student) was definitely a member of that small club of FSAE people who both intuitively and academically 'get' vehicle dynamics. While Claude had some very nice things to say about UW's race engineering last year, the highest compliment I have ever heard him bestow was to say that 'OSU's suspension guy was the best at Cali and the only one at the level of the best teams in the world.'

So, the design event being as much about the conversations and the knowledge that a team communicates during those chats I sort of get it.

Mike - one final note of consolation: For the past couple of years the judges have been rather explicit in sharing their belief that winning West is sort of like being the best hockey player in a warm country with no ice-rinks. Now, my philisophical opinions about how crappy their attitude is when you consider how it discounts the massive amount of effort that even the lowest ranked teams put in - the result is that they have not been giving anyone 150 points in design to reflect their opinion. So even if a car gets into finals with some obvious flaws, the differece in points between 1st and 4th should only be 10-15, not 25.

ryan

[Matt N]

UW didn't finish Enduro. WWU finished but was stuck in 2nd gear for 80% of the time (shifting cable died?) Sounds like WWU and Oklahoma traded laps for a while.

Good job guys!

[Marshall.Hagen]

If they were stuck in a gear, I guess it was a good one to be stuck in...

[Wildcat_Alum]

Pics from endurance and some padock/last minute scrambling to get your car done stuff.

Endruance and Pits (http://jonschwab.smugmug.com/gallery/8627897_j2ES3/1/569182297_vVxHF)

[AJoshi]

I have a (short) update via text.

Final Results:
1.RIT
2.Oregon State
3.Kansas
4.Maryland

EDIT: Sorry Oregon State guys.

[ACasson]

Congratulations to everyone's placing at competition.

And my comment on the Oregon State vs. Oregon thing was just all in good school rivalry fun.

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike T.:
Maybe I'm just a little bitter, but am I the only one that thinks it's a little odd that a car that broke it's front suspension in the brake test made it to the design finals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From my limited experience with Carroll Smith's running of the design event, this car would NEVER have made it to semi finals.

[McMasteRacer]

Hey guys,

Our team wasnt around for the awards presentation, and we are curious to know who won the welder from lincoln electric?

Thanks to everybody that helped us out at competition

[Hagmuller]

I don't know about you guys but,

1)OSU's engine sounded anemic like it was only running on 1 of the four cylinders...

2)307 lbs is waaaaaaay to light to make it into design finals...

3)There should be a penalty for finishing endurance with good time and fuel economy after front suspension failure...

4)They must have been cheating heavily.
Did you see anyone slip the judge's money? With the bad economy, it only makes sense.

I guess we will find out the true test of the car in Germany.

For Germany!

Alex Hagmuller
Team Totally Awesome

[BeaverGuy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Charlie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike T.:
Maybe I'm just a little bitter, but am I the only one that thinks it's a little odd that a car that broke it's front suspension in the brake test made it to the design finals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From my limited experience with Carroll Smith's running of the design event, this car would NEVER have made it to semi finals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A car making it to design semi's even with major mechanical issues and not being able to pass tech is not unprecedented. Under Carrol Smith's watch a car also won the design competition when it never spun a wheel at competition.

That said, I was extremely suprised the car made it to design finals. I seem to remember that the last time I read the rules there was something about a car needing to be "competition ready" at the design review. The Oregon State car was not, as they were in the middle of reconstruction at the time. This year's California final design recap is definitely one I want to hear as it would hopefully clear up some of this mess.

Now come on, Alex. You are extremely happy and have a reason to be. You put together a fantastic new engine package in 1 year to go with the well devloped drive train that you helped develop in previous years. But tone it down man.

[dpalatov]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike T.:
Maybe I'm just a little bitter, but am I the only one that thinks it's a little odd that a car that broke it's front suspension in the brake test made it to the design finals? Seems like that sort of failure must have resulted from a major design flaw that a judge should have caught on to. Looks like a low angle pull rod causing a little too much compression in the upper control arm from the picture. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i was one of the design judges and this issue was definitely taken into account and discussed at length, sometimes passionately http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

keep in mind that we judge not only the car but the team, the depth of team members' understanding of the design issues and process, the clarity of their design goals and how successful and consistent their design effort was at achieving them.

oregon's primary stated goal was to win the fuel economy competition, which they did. we did not judge whether it was the correct goal to set but we did look closely at how the design supported the goal. the entire design, from powertrain to chassis to suspension was consistent and effective at achieving what they set out to do. the team also demonstrated excellent theoretical knowledge of the car's systems and had good justification for most of the design choices that were made.

that said, i believe the catastrophic structural failure was a clear design error in not properly accounting for brake loads and it weighed heavily in the judges' decision to place OSU second in design. to the team's credit they designed and made the repairs overnight and were able to complete the dynamic events, which was also brought up during the evaluation.

as you read this post keep in mind that i do NOT officially speak for the judges, my purpose here is simply to provide all teams with input that may help them design and present a better car. so here's my personal feedback that applies pretty much to all the teams i've judged and talked to:

- make sure all team members have at least a general understanding of key issues and loads in ALL systems on the car. specialization is fine and sometimes necessary but the car is not just a combination of disjoint pieces, it has to work as a complete system. understand how your piece fits into the whole and how choices made in other systems' design affect yours, and vice versa. (in my opinion it was the frame designer's lack of understanding of brake loads on the suspension that led to OSU's problem).

- have a clear design goal for the entire car and be able to show how the choices made for each system support that goal.

- do the analysis and understand the theory. it is fine to use something from last year if it works, but you must understand WHY and HOW it works and be able to fully justify your choice to not redesign it. bringing solid analysis of some alternatives you've considered is a good thing, especially for teams constrained by budget and/or time.

- when a team member graduates or leaves or is not able to attend the competition, make sure that at least someone else on the team has a full and thorough understanding of their work, including why and how choices were made. the team will be judged on how well it can justify the design and saying 'that guy isn't here' will not help your scores.

overall it was great to see all the teams who made it to the competition and just being there is a great achievement (i know first hand and i'm not just saying it!). so congratulations to all!

from the discussions that took place during the judging i can say that there was a unanimous agreement that RIT and OSU, among all the teams present, had the best combination of goals, theoretical knowledge, analysis and execution. their performance in the dynamic events fully supports this and my hat is off to both teams for a job well done.

notice however that we did not award the full 150 points in design to anyone - there is definitely room for all to improve.

hope this helps.

[JDBCPP]

Someone asked for a picture of Washington on two wheels, I managed to catch this while out on course during autocross taking pictures of our team's car. Already sent a larger resolution of this picture to a member of the Washington team. I have many more pictures, still sorting through them all.
Congrats to all teams.
-Jeff B.
Cal Poly Pomona http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd86/73duster47/FridayJune192009728.jpg

[michaelwaltrip]

congrats to RIT, you guys did it right. way to back up your strong showing in michigan. really clean car and smoking fast. and the drama at the end of the autocross made for a good show.

[Hagmuller]

I was trying to be sarcastic.

--- A lot of thought and hard work was put into our car by dedicated, knowledgeable, capable people. I am extremely proud of what our team pulled off, and I know the amount of work it takes to compete, all the while wondering if your car really has what it takes to win. I know that I was wondering if our engine package would make enough of the "right" power to be competitive, and whether or not we would find the right combination of power and fuel economy to achieve our goals. All the work put into making the car light paid off and the suspension design is top notch. Doing the same job with a single instead of a four cylinder, and doing it with less fuel, was our ultimate goal, and we achieved it. I can't wait to see how we do in Germany after proper repairs to the suspension are made!
Great job OSU!



Congratulations to everyone who came to compete!

Alex Hagmuller

[rkellz007]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dpalatov:

i was one of the design judges and this issue was definitely taken into account and discussed at length, sometimes passionately http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

keep in mind that we judge not only the car but the team, the depth of team members' understanding of the design issues and process, the clarity of their design goals and how successful and consistent their design effort was at achieving them.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for taking the time to provide some clarity. I believe that it is very helpful when judges take the time to shed some light on the 'other side of the story' when a decision creates controversy.

Your post again illustrates the approach taken by the judges and should be read carefully by future teams wishing to excel. Again you have reinforced the idea that it is not just the car presented but the team and its process/knowledge/etc which are being judged.

ryan

[Yellow Ranger]

So how bout this competition guys?!

I mean, come on, 8 of the top 10 autocross schools finished endurance. I was sitting there in the dynamic area saying to myself- okay, whose the first one to break- cars kept finishing and finishing! That was awesome! I think this was an extremely tough competition dynamically!

And who didn't love that first heat with all those wings! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[rkellz007]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yellow Ranger:
So how bout this competition guys?!

I mean, come on, 8 of the top 10 autocross schools finished endurance. I was sitting there in the dynamic area saying to myself- okay, whose the first one to break- cars kept finishing and finishing! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, out of both the endurance finishers and DNFs, who was putting in the fastest times? Anyone record times they want to share? Did it basically look like auto-x?

ryan

[michaelwaltrip]

the fastest times i recorded were 66's and a few high 65's, kansas was very consistent 66's if i remember correctly, but most of the top teams were running very close times.

btw, anyone know why sdsm&t didn't show up?

[rkellz007]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by michaelwaltrip:
the fastest times i recorded were 66's and a few high 65's, kansas was very consistent 66's if i remember correctly, but most of the top teams were running very close times.

btw, anyone know why sdsm&t didn't show up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who got into the 65's?

thanks - we former FSAEr's who had to work appreciate the info...

ryan

[J. Vinella]

I have a great picture of RIT in liquor store with a FULL shopping cart of every type of beer, very TU Graz'esk from MIS. I wont post it for prosperity reasons.

I would first like to congratulate RIT again. I first meet your team in 2006 at West and was turned off when I talked to a total asshole. But my dealings with your team this year has changed my views. Great job.

Here is Mike T. again stirring the pot. OSU had an extremely bright team and a the cleanest car at competition. I have no problem with them in design finals.

I am surprised that this has not been mentioned: OSU lost 1st place by 9 points. They were awarded a 10 point penalty for turning in their SEF 45 minuets late. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif You flip the table and not have the penalty and RIT has finished 2nd twice in a row and not able to crack it. Either way that sucks...hard.

UW was very frustrated with 4th in design. The powertrain judges were lacking without Mr. Ping and Wiseman. My engine guy is extremely bright and from the sounds of it was explaining things at potentially too high of a level. However, how a judge could not understand choke flow and traction limit is beyond me. The judges in MIS were not "specialized" engine guys and has some knowledge of vehicle dynamics. This was in my view the reason we did not get into finals. From semis (6th) in MIS and beating RIT, and Kansas to 4th and behind them in West. WHAT? We actually lost 1/2 a day from MIS to West and the designs or justifications did not change. Then again S&T were ahead of us in MIS but finished behind us at West. And the other UW won design in VIR and did not make semis in MIS. BUT COME ON!

Our doom stemmed from a transmission locking in autocross. 20 MPH to 0 had to been hard on the driveline. This huge shock loading surly put a crack in our CV shaft and sheared inside the diff during endurance. What a shame. From our watches I was putting down 66's and our second driver is 3 seconds faster than me. And we are on the Hoosiers which would not have been slimy like the Goodyears in the second half of endurance. Kansas' car on Hoosiers would have been scary fast.

All in all another competition and UW has DNF'd endurance. We still feel like a top team and I wish the guys good luck next year. They have close to 30 people returning and all of them have their heads held high. The car was fast.

I'll try and get the video of my 180 brodie in autocross up on youtube.

"A boss move by the bossman"

[Matt N]

Some of us former FSAEr's would also be greatly interested in hearing what the weights on a few more of the cars were. Kansas, RIT, UTA, Oklahoma, MS&T are a few of the ones I'm curious about.

Good work to all who attended comp - I hope it helps the grads in finding worthwhile employment!

Matt

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rkellz007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by michaelwaltrip:
the fastest times i recorded were 66's and a few high 65's, kansas was very consistent 66's if i remember correctly, but most of the top teams were running very close times.

btw, anyone know why sdsm&t didn't show up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who got into the 65's?

thanks - we former FSAEr's who had to work appreciate the info...

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My memory of the posted endurance score sheet is a little fuzzy, but I remember Kansas having the lowest raw time. Maryland was cleaner, so they had the lowest corrected time and 300 points. RIT was third about 10 seconds back, and OSU was a couple seconds back of that in fourth at 289 points.

[Mike Cook]

Weights:

MD 513
UMR 430ish
RIT 455ish
UTA 495ish
kansas ?

We ran a few 64's at the end of endurance. RIT was much faster than us in the straights (duh). Kansas's car handled the best, but their engine hurt them (aprilla sucko). Both of us got docked with a bunch of cones we didn't hit.

Fuel economy hurt us bad, and its tough to loose so many points in endurance even when you when run the fastest.

Attendance was way down, I think only 48 schools showed up and 30ish ran endurance.

San Jose brought a great rookie car.

RIT was consistent in everything and very fast. They deserved the win.

Oregon state lost to RIT by 9 points but also had a 10 point penalty (cost late?, crush zone report late???).


Mike

[michaelwaltrip]

yeah... i noticed that the course workers in the corner near us were totally oblivious. we had to yell at them several times about downed cones. i realize they're volunteers, but dang, sometimes it was just bad.

[nick roberts]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike Cook:
Weights:

MD 513
UMR 430ish
RIT 455ish
UTA 495ish
kansas ?

We ran a few 64's at the end of endurance. RIT was much faster than us in the straights (duh). Kansas's car handled the best, but their engine hurt them (aprilla sucko). Both of us got docked with a bunch of cones we didn't hit.

Fuel economy hurt us bad, and its tough to loose so many points in endurance even when you when run the fastest.

Attendance was way down, I think only 48 schools showed up and 30ish ran endurance.

San Jose brought a great rookie car.

RIT was consistent in everything and very fast. They deserved the win.

Oregon state lost to RIT by 9 points but also had a 10 point penalty (cost late?, crush zone report late???).


Mike </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


We weighed in at 413. And i believe that Oklahoma was just under 400 but im not positive.

Our clocks had our second driver and Maryland in the 64's and our first driver in the 65's.

By the way, i loved watching Maryland, MST, and RIT fight it out for the several laps they were all clustered, that sure looked like some fun driving.


I also wanted to address a rumor that i heard going around the paddocks that we pay for our carbon work to be done by outside suppliers. We have spent the last 10 years getting our composites program to the level it is at now. The last thing our guys want to hear is the accusation that they are not the ones making our parts. We also don't use an enormous budget to fund our composites endeavors. We have spent a lot of time getting sponsors and keeping them happy. If any team would like to know how we make our parts, our guys would be more then happy to discuss with them. We don't have access to anything amazing; just a very small autoclave and a large oven. I just wanted to clarify this hopefully for good so that our appearance to the FSAE community isn't one of lavish spending and professional outsourcing. Sorry for the rant.

-Nick Roberts
Kansas University '05-'07 + '09

[D Collins Jr]

OU weighed 396.

As far as ripping on the Aprilia, I saw three of us finish enduro with them. The reliability issues are getting taken care of. And if you want to tell me that we're underpowered, bear in mind that it's a brand new engine. I know that at OU we had about 8 years of development with the f4/f4i platform. That's alot of time to figure out starting maps, timing strategies, try things, blow engines by making mistakes, learning about the engine, etc. That was also a 4th/5th generation engine. We've had about 11 months on the Aprilia platform that's on it's second gen. The power will come, and in the meantime, those teams making the switch are profiting in fuel points.

[pucksaver]

Does anyone have the results for endurance? And do they post lap times for both drivers or just the final score?

[Yellow Ranger]

Gotta love those apes... And oregon state killed at economy! I know this year was a huge change for everyone with the templates and the fuel scores but now that everyone has had a year I wonder how many of the 4 cylinders we'll see next year... I guess there's always the tune it super lean option but to what cost and even at that- osu killed on economy- got us by nearly 50 points and that was one of the big reasons we switched to an ape!

[J. Vinella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike Cook:

Oregon state lost to RIT by 9 points but also had a 10 point penalty (cost late?, crush zone report late???).


Mike </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a lengthy post that has still not cleared the monitors.

OSU's SEF was 45 min late.

[overdrive535]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by michaelwaltrip:
btw, anyone know why sdsm&t didn't show up? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am also wondering why our west river brethren were not at west. Does anyone from mines wish to comment?

[Gabe]

I wanted to say that was an awesome competition. I also wanted to say thank you to all the teams for coming out and it was great to meet all of you guys. Colorado State University had our best finish in the history of the program at CSU. We finally finished endurance! It was our goal this year to finish all the events and I am proud of all my guys for sticking with it and achieving our goal even with some major set backs!

We got quite a few pictures of lots of cars and our photographers are still sorting through them, but we will post them all up for all to see here soon.

On that note, any one get some pictures of my crazy spin into the finish of Autox? I also wanted to say sorry to everyone for me slowing down the autox and almost destroying the timing lights.

Anyone catch our driver change in endurance?! We had to completley change suits during the driver change and we were able to do it in 2:47!! Good thing neither the first driver nor I were shy guys haha. Anyone get pictures of this?

I am going to deeply miss FSAE. It was the greatest time of my life. I hope to be a volunteer at some of the future events. Thank you all for a wonderful time in Cali, and a big congrats to everyone that made it and RIT and OSU. Your car's are inspirations of what can be done in FSAE!

[rkellz007]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike T.:
Maybe I'm just a little bitter, but am I the only one that thinks it's a little odd that a car that broke it's front suspension in the brake test made it to the design finals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike,

At least one thing is clear....at least there is one team that M. Nucci has not shared UW's suspension analysis tools with ;-0

ryan

[kira_vtec]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gabe:
We had to completley change suits during the driver change and we were able to do it in 2:47!! Good thing neither the first driver nor I were shy guys haha. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fantastic! I never saw this in five FSAE competitions.

Congratulations on completing the endurance! It was our goal this year on Michigan.

[Matt N]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rkellz007:

Mike,

At least one thing is clear....at least there is one team that M. Nucci has not shared UW's suspension analysis tools with ;-0

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't recall signing any IP when I joined in fall 04...

I'd trade the OSU guys any spreadsheet I have for the recipe which makes a 307lb car (though I was told 307lb was minus some seating material and fluids).

Matt

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Matt N:

I'd trade the OSU guys any spreadsheet I have for the recipe which makes a 307lb car (though I was told 307lb was minus some seating material and fluids).

Matt </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

307 was with full coolant and oil, but before fuel. With the repairs to the monocoque, fuel and a seat insert we were 319.

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rkellz007:
Mike,

At least one thing is clear....at least there is one team that M. Nucci has not shared UW's suspension analysis tools with ;-0

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As we can best determine, the failure was in the monocoque and/or the attachment to the monocoque, not the front suspension. I'd say we were aware of the suspension loads, but our CFRP analysis skills are still developing. :^)

[Erich Ohlde]

i got the opportunity to watch the oregon state guys use a ball peen hammer to 'straighten' one of the repair plates to the front suspension by beating it against the chassis. Looks like you might want to teach your guys a little bit about how to work with structural composites, i.e. hammers = bad

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yellow Ranger:
Gotta love those apes... And oregon state killed at economy! I know this year was a huge change for everyone with the templates and the fuel scores but now that everyone has had a year I wonder how many of the 4 cylinders we'll see next year... I guess there's always the tune it super lean option but to what cost and even at that- osu killed on economy- got us by nearly 50 points and that was one of the big reasons we switched to an ape! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was at FSG last year and had the opportunity to talk to TU Graz about their engine development. They did a really nice job of optimizing their endurance fuel maps, balancing power with fuel economy, to maximize their points in the event. I think their results speak for themselves.

That said, I agree, it should be interesting to see how this new endurance reality sorts itself out. Not only the 4 cylinder 600s, but also big aero packages that could take a lot of power to push through the air.

This is one area where FSG tweaked the SAE rules. At FSG, if you go faster, you can use more fuel.

[Isn't it Obvious?!]

Missouri S&T weighed in at 434 lbs.

[pucksaver]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kira_vtec:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gabe:
We had to completley change suits during the driver change and we were able to do it in 2:47!! Good thing neither the first driver nor I were shy guys haha. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fantastic! I never saw this in five FSAE competitions.

Congratulations on completing the endurance! It was our goal this year on Michigan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We also had to change suits and helmet/balaclava. We almost had to do a shoe change also but we were able to get a pair of shoes on Thursday haha. We got in under 3 minutes too... not sure of our exact time though, it was great fun!

It was our goal as a first year team just to pass tech but we were able to get to endurance and finish also! We missed all the other dynamic events unfortunately but I am very happy with the performance of the car with very minimal testing.

Thanks everyone for all of their help at the competition as well, all the teams were very supportive and extremely nice.

If anyone has an pictures of us on track or in the pits please let me know (email c.stothers@gmail.com) thanks!!

UC Riverside Formula SAE #36

[rkellz007]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rkellz007:
Mike,

At least one thing is clear....at least there is one team that M. Nucci has not shared UW's suspension analysis tools with ;-0

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As we can best determine, the failure was in the monocoque and/or the attachment to the monocoque, not the front suspension. I'd say we were aware of the suspension loads, but our CFRP analysis skills are still developing. :^) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bob,

Sorry, that post was not directed at OSU - more an inside joke at UW. As I pointed out in my earlier post, your team definitely knows its stuff and was clearly well prepared to communicate the design to the judges.

I was consistently impressed in all of my dealings with OSU last year at Dallesport and comp.

ryan

[Dan G]

Here are the first half of my photos from West...

http://picasaweb.google.com/gi...art1?feat=directlink (http://picasaweb.google.com/gielamonster/FormulaSAEWest2009Part1?feat=directlink)

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_IOLouNNI/AAAAAAAABx8/Kkh37j6YYVw/s576/IMG_2952.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_MAQ17sJI/AAAAAAAACAM/mVbTbMgKvpU/s576/IMG_3275.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_MLLrzL5I/AAAAAAAACA4/epGp8NHH4po/s576/IMG_3295.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_MefeWzzI/AAAAAAAACCA/gb__gHBO-CQ/s576/IMG_3325.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_Oyp92jBI/AAAAAAAACJ0/IR_KXtcbZgI/s576/IMG_3508.JPG

More in a bit.

[Matt N]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Sorry, that post was not directed at OSU - more an inside joke at UW.

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is okay if you don't like seeing the car that I helped design go perform well enough to earn top ten placing.

I really liked seeing the 09 UW car at the unveiling. I wanted to see you prove to all the NW teams that wings are not a fad. Hopefully next year will be the year.

Matt

[rkellz007]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Matt N:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Sorry, that post was not directed at OSU - more an inside joke at UW.

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is okay if you don't like seeing the car that I helped design go perform well enough to earn top ten placing.

I really liked seeing the 09 UW car at the unveiling. I wanted to see you prove to all the NW teams that wings are not a fad. Hopefully next year will be the year.

Matt </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Matt,

You miss the point - I am nothing but excited that WWU, UW, and OSU have been putting out great cars the last couple of years. It is always exciting to see fellow NW teams doing well. Additionally, I have really enjoyed the comraderie that has been shared between NW teams recently.

The issue is one of intellectual integrity. What does the code of conduct at any University have to say about turning in someone else's homework as your own? Why should it be viewed differently when an individual student transfers schools and takes proprietary design tools, part designs, testing info, etc with them?

Should we take a poll of who thinks that's okay? In the professional world you can't help taking a little knowledge with you IN YOUR HEAD when you change employers - but if you took drawings and proprietary software it could spell a big fat lawsuit for your employer - see Stepneygate or Google "trade secret law suit".

ryan

[Mike Cook]

Tim, don't get butt hurt. Your car handled great but I watched it run around the track and it was definitely not pulling very good out of the corners. I could hear the engine popping and sputtering. I don't think I need to remind you of all the grief the aprilla has caused you guys, and uta, and texas am, and auburn, etc.

Just because the engine made it through endurance doesn't mean it is good, and had it been running correctly, you guys would have killed everyone.

[Matt N]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Why should it be viewed differently when an individual student transfers schools and takes proprietary design tools, part designs, testing info, etc with them? ... In the professional world you can't help taking a little knowledge with you IN YOUR HEAD when you change employers - but if you took drawings and proprietary software ...

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't have any proprietary software, and though I was closely involved with the full vehicle model of the 05 car, you won't find similar designs in parts I drew up last year. I designed engine manifolding while I participated in your team. Do our designs look similar? The eccentrically mounted drivetrain was modeled and machined up by Taylor (not me). I'm curious how you think your spaceframe design helped me design a first-year cfrp monocoque.

The design ethos behind my 10" suspension had carryover steering, FVSA and SVSA geometry from our 05 car and is so different from your 13" suspension that I don't know what you think I stole. I practiced on your driving/maintenance team while I attended, so if its "trade secret" that I have some g/g plots from days I drove, then I can return them.

I understand your point, and if you had a bit more of a solid case, I would back down. The cars were (and are) so dissimilar that I find it funny that you think I used all your data to help me make design decisions. As it stands, you use my choice of changing FSAE programs to discount all the hard work done by the 2008 WWU team, in an underhanded comment one year later, which is slighly insulting at best.

Matt

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rkellz007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rp:
As we can best determine, the failure was in the monocoque and/or the attachment to the monocoque, not the front suspension. I'd say we were aware of the suspension loads, but our CFRP analysis skills are still developing. :^) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bob,

Sorry, that post was not directed at OSU - more an inside joke at UW. As I pointed out in my earlier post, your team definitely knows its stuff and was clearly well prepared to communicate the design to the judges.

I was consistently impressed in all of my dealings with OSU last year at Dallesport and comp.

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely no offense taken. My post was aimed at providing clarity to all those who saw the photo or actual car in its failed state as to what happened. Most of the posts on the subject refer to OSU's "failed suspension." I was just trying to correct that general misconception.

Thanks for bringing Dr. Emery down to comp, he and I had a couple great conversations.

[J. Vinella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rp:

Thanks for bringing Dr. Emery down to comp, he and I had a couple great conversations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem. I think he out did me in terms of hats.

For the record. UW weighted in at 477 lbs (492 at MIS, that is .5 lbs per day of weight savings)

What is the story behind the 45 min late SEF. Spaced out? Last minute procrastination?

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J. Vinella:
What is the story behind the 45 min late SEF. Spaced out? Last minute procrastination? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our first SEF ever was also our first CFRP SEF. Neither spaced nor last minute, it took a LOT longer than we thought it would. Should go much better next year...

[Hagmuller]

Dr. Paasch,

I haven't seen an "official" posting for fuel consumption, all I know is that we won fuel economy... How much did we end up using? What were the available fuels at competition? Also, was there any chassis dyno available at comp?

Alex Hagmuller

[Dan G]

Sorry if this is a double post. First time it gave me some kind of nonsense about the post getting flagged for something?

Anyway, I've uploaded the first half of the photos I took on Friday. They can be seen here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/gi...art1?feat=directlink (http://picasaweb.google.com/gielamonster/FormulaSAEWest2009Part1?feat=directlink)

Here are a few highlight shots:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_HpzdPLLI/AAAAAAAABv4/xQHPwbBqtMY/s576/IMG_2917.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_ImtCq-YI/AAAAAAAABzY/Q-Ik0ysixZg/s576/IMG_2982.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_J-NmLcaI/AAAAAAAAB4Y/iL-CCvEs5xs/s576/IMG_3102.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_K617-F3I/AAAAAAAAB8A/x6fSjY8W9b0/s576/IMG_3173.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_MLLrzL5I/AAAAAAAACA4/epGp8NHH4po/s576/IMG_3295.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_OSXFvBrI/AAAAAAAACIE/TDbO7jEO72U/s576/IMG_3460.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_OxgKMJEI/AAAAAAAACJw/0oXNiDQw-p0/s576/IMG_3507.JPG

[Dan G]

Sorry if this is a triple post. First time it gave me some kind of nonsense about the post having "trigger words" in it?

Anyway, I've uploaded the first half of the photos I took on Friday. They can be seen here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/gi...art1?feat=directlink (http://picasaweb.google.com/gielamonster/FormulaSAEWest2009Part1?feat=directlink)

[Dan G]

Here are a few highlight shots:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_HpzdPLLI/AAAAAAAABv4/xQHPwbBqtMY/s576/IMG_2917.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_ImtCq-YI/AAAAAAAABzY/Q-Ik0ysixZg/s576/IMG_2982.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_J-NmLcaI/AAAAAAAAB4Y/iL-CCvEs5xs/s576/IMG_3102.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_K617-F3I/AAAAAAAAB8A/x6fSjY8W9b0/s576/IMG_3173.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_MLLrzL5I/AAAAAAAACA4/epGp8NHH4po/s576/IMG_3295.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_OSXFvBrI/AAAAAAAACIE/TDbO7jEO72U/s576/IMG_3460.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_OxgKMJEI/AAAAAAAACJw/0oXNiDQw-p0/s576/IMG_3507.JPG

[Dan G]

Here are a few highlight shots:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_HpzdPLLI/AAAAAAAABv4/xQHPwbBqtMY/s576/IMG_2917.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_ImtCq-YI/AAAAAAAABzY/Q-Ik0ysixZg/s576/IMG_2982.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_EDfecgwxgBI/Sj_J-NmLcaI/AAAAAAAAB4Y/iL-CCvEs5xs/s576/IMG_3102.JPG

[Pennyman]

Biased Enduro Pics (http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m434/sjsuformulasae/Formula%20SAE%20West%202009/Endurance/)

Here's a few pics our dude snapped during endurance. Congrats to everyone who participated. OSU, what you guys did to get your car back together was simply amazing. Giving you guys some Monster was the least we could do.

I'll post my thoughts about my first impressions of the design event soon, but in general I'm really excited about getting another car together to kick some ass in 2010.

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hagmuller:
Dr. Paasch,

I haven't seen an "official" posting for fuel consumption, all I know is that we won fuel economy... How much did we end up using? What were the available fuels at competition? Also, was there any chassis dyno available at comp?

Alex Hagmuller </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going from memory, since I didn't write it down, but I think it was 0.68 gallons. They had 93 (but actually 91), 100 and E85. No chassis dyno this year.

[Hagmuller]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hagmuller:
Dr. Paasch,

I haven't seen an "official" posting for fuel consumption, all I know is that we won fuel economy... How much did we end up using? What were the available fuels at competition? Also, was there any chassis dyno available at comp?

Alex Hagmuller </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going from memory, since I didn't write it down, but I think it was 0.68 gallons. They had 93 (but actually 91), 100 and E85. No chassis dyno this year. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not Bad...

[rjwoods77]

http://s334.photobucket.com/al...current=_MG_0140.jpg (http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m434/sjsuformulasae/Formula%20SAE%20West%202009/Endurance/?action=view&current=_MG_0140.jpg)

Low profile wheel/tire.

Low profile two inch rule as well. Tech a little lax?

[Sam Zimmerman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rkellz007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Matt N:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Sorry, that post was not directed at OSU - more an inside joke at UW.

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is okay if you don't like seeing the car that I helped design go perform well enough to earn top ten placing.

I really liked seeing the 09 UW car at the unveiling. I wanted to see you prove to all the NW teams that wings are not a fad. Hopefully next year will be the year.

Matt </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Matt,

You miss the point - I am nothing but excited that WWU, UW, and OSU have been putting out great cars the last couple of years. It is always exciting to see fellow NW teams doing well. Additionally, I have really enjoyed the comraderie that has been shared between NW teams recently.

The issue is one of intellectual integrity. What does the code of conduct at any University have to say about turning in someone else's homework as your own? Why should it be viewed differently when an individual student transfers schools and takes proprietary design tools, part designs, testing info, etc with them?

Should we take a poll of who thinks that's okay? In the professional world you can't help taking a little knowledge with you IN YOUR HEAD when you change employers - but if you took drawings and proprietary software it could spell a big fat lawsuit for your employer - see Stepneygate or Google "trade secret law suit".

ryan </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is supposed to be a learning effort first and foremost. If a student transfers schools and takes his knowledge to spread to other students then more people benefit.

Too many people want to treat the competitions like a business, with everything super secret. It goes against what the competition is designed to do, which is to teach students about engineering.

[Bcohen5055]

This was my first year with FSAE, I had a lot of fun and am looking foward to next year. I shot a lot of photos at comp, pretty much all of Colorado State. The link is posted below if you want to check them out.
http://gallery.me.com/bcohen5055#100041

[James Waltman]

Continuing the tradition, here are the Endurance notes that Kirk and I took during the event.

8:48am
R.I.T is out on Course
Followed by Kansas, Missouri S&T, and Maryland

RIT is smoother than the others through the chicane
Yellow?
RIT is catching Maryland fast
U of Washington on course
Oregon State on Course
Blue flag for Maryland – RIT passes
Maryland passes RIT
Maryland checking out on RIT
Kansas catching Washington
RIT passes Maryland
Both RIT and Maryland catch Missouri S&T
Kansas smokes past Washington
RIT in for driver change
Maryland hot on Missouri S&T’s heels
Maryland passes MS&T
Washington passes Kansas
Kansas passes Washington
Kansas in for driver change
RIT queued up for second driver

Oregon State is holding its own with the single – not catching but not being caught
RIT out with second driver
MS&T in for driver change (we later learn that they’ve broken the steering column and will DNF here)

Maryland in for driver change
Oregon State is very quick out of the kink after the chicane
Kansas back out with the second driver
Washington in for driver change
Kansas driver sounds jerky - really having issues keeping the engine singing
UTA on course
Maryland pushing cones with its cone catchers (aka wings)
Kansas just clips a cone with rear tire
RIT’s rear tires are going off (wearing) but is still under control
Washington can’t get into gear
UTA passes Washington
Kansas murders 3 cones at once with its cone catcher
The Grice Reaper is circling around Washington
The glue kart has arrived – Washington is a goner
RIT’s driver is slower – passed by Maryland and Kansas
RIT completes the endurance
Western Washington on course
Maryland blowin’ away from Kansas
WWU robbed by corner workers – passed by UTA
Oklahoma on course
WWU flagged again – Maryland checks out
Maryland completes endurance
Cal Poly Pomona out and banging the rev limiter!
WWU engine shakin’ and bakin’
OU passes Pomona
Kookmin on course
Oregon State completes endurance
OU checkin’ out on Pomona
WWU nails apex cone
UTA in for driver change
Grice Reaper reports that it may have been Washington’s clutch may have caused the DNF (we later learn that sheared off the CV cup at the splines)

Kookmin spins – eats cones
OU hot on their heels
Auburn on course
WWU climbing on Auburn with cold tires
WWU passes Auburn
Pomona passes Kookmin

Pomona muffler sounds like an F1 car – something has changed – clearly much louder
(We can see on the next lap that their muffler has blown open. Turns out, that little cap that was added to pass sound check might create a lot of back pressure)

WWU in for driver change
Auburn driver needs a kick in the pants – very cautious
Kookmin driver choppin’ through the chicane like a lumberjack
WWU back out with second driver
Kookmin in for driver change
Pomona back out after driver change!?!? (Even with the blown muffler)
WWU passes Pomona and doesn’t even hit them!
OU also passes Pomona in same stop
RPI on the course
RPI hacking up the chicane like Freddy Krueger
Kookmin driver #2 way faster through the kink
WWU eaten up by Oklahoma
Kookmin passed RPI
WWU passes Oklahoma then blows it by the next station
RPI gets crossed up coming out of the chicane and comes around – kills 4 or 5 cones
WWU passes Oklahoma
WWU and Oklahoma are breathing down RPI’s neck
WWU and Oklahoma smoke past RPI
Oklahoma passes WWU
Akron on course
Auburn Driver change
RPI passes WWU
WWU passes RPI
WWU completes endurance – Go Vikings!
Auburn driver desperately needs to go down a gear, but it sounds like the motor is breaking up at high RPM

Calgary on course
CSUN on course
CSUN is dragging a cone around – just like Calgary is
Clemson on Course
Kookmin passes CSUN
CSUN driver is very cautious through the tight kink
Colorado State on course
Clemson must have paid off the tech officials - there’s no way the helmet is kosher under the rules for clearance

RPI blows past CSU
Auburn back out with second driver
CSUN driver is herky jerky through kink
CSU engine is super quiet – engine breaking up, up top
CSU eats Toledo
Clemson and CSUN pass Calgary after chicane
Now on course Toledo, Clemson, CSU, Calgary
CSUN in for driver change
Clemson passes Toledo and Toledo checks out
CSU passes Toledo
CSU driver is not on it
RPI stompin’ the throttle at every turn in the chicane
RPI overcooks corner and plows straight through two cones
CSU driver breaking his arms to get through tight corners
UCSD on course, promptly spins out, kills the engine, restarts, then gingerly tiptoes around the course, then nails a cone before start finish and gets passed by Clemson while he waits for the corner worker to collect the cone

SJSU on course and FLIES past Toledo
Toledo retakes the position , checks out
UCSD car pulled off for a talk with Mrs. Royce
CSU smoked by quick corners, SJSU and Toledo
SJSU passed by CSU but stays right on their tail
SJSU blows past CSU at the far end of the course
UCSD back on course and better behaved
Alberta on course
SJSU smooth and quick through the chicane
Toledo dropping CSU like a bad habit
UCSD eats more cones and waits for corner workers to fish them out of the suspension – SJSU passed while they’re waiting

The Grice Reaper tells us that the UCSD car needs to stop tempting the Reaper crew

Idaho on course
UCSD in for driver change
SDSU on course – super cautious
SJSU on with second driver
Idaho reeling in SDSU – passes easily
SDSU driver needs to use his right foot more
Alberta is quick around the sweeper
Brazil is on course – blasts us with the smell of E85 (one of us thinks it smells like corn subsidies and one of us thinks it smells like tequila)

Dave reports that the Pomona car was meatballed for muffler halfway though second driver and MS&T DNF’d at driver change

Cal Berkeley on course, promptly eats cone and carries it around – Go Bears!
Cal dies after one lap – the Reapers are circling
Reapers claim Cal car and deliver it to Hades
Idaho on course with second driver
SJSU, blowing steam
Kettering is playing Tokyo drift – FSAE style
China is putt-putting around

[pucksaver]

Anyone have a picture of endurance results or a copy of the results?

[James Waltman]

My Autocross pictures are up.
The gallery:
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman...t/Autocross_Gallery/ (http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Autocross_Gallery/)
The zip file with everything from the gallery is here:
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman...SS_JAMES_WALTMAN.zip (http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/2009_FSAE_WEST_AUTOCROSS_JAMES_WALTMAN.zip)

I’m happy to share with anyone – email me if you’d like to use them for anything other than personal use (like for a team website). I may have some of your school even if it’s not in the gallery – just ask.

I’ll work on my endurance pictures over the next few days.
Here’s a few from the autocross (this is going to take up some screen space).

WWU
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8271_resized1200_%236_WWU_ps.jpg
UTA
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8223_resized1200_%2313_ps.jpg
Oregon State
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8284_resized1200_%2314_ps.jpg
Colorado State
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8290_resized1200_%2326_ps.jpg
Washington
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8321_resized1200_%2367_ps.jpg
Illinois
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8604_resized1200_%2315_ps.jpg
Kansas
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8719_resized1200_%2369_ps.jpg
Pomona
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8769_resized1200_%235_ps.jpg
Maryland
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8778_resized1200_%231_ps.jpg
RIT
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8853_resized1200_%2366_ps.jpg
Clemson
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_7998_resized1200_%2368_Clemson_ps.jpg
Cal
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/IMG_8197_resized1144_%2347_ps.jpg

[Gabe]

@ James

Great pictures man! Thanks for posting!

And I love your guys comments on endurance. Too bad we had major overheating issues otherwise those comments might have been a little more of CSU passing others lol. But either way thank you!

[Wesley]

First thing I'd like to say is thanks again to SAE, volunteers, and sponsors for another great event.

Second, I'd also like to thank U Vic for generous use of their welder during the competition, and without whose help we would have not passed tech. A thanks also goes to Kansas, who gave us a working injector. More power, but it means we lost economy. :P

Third, I want to encourage the team from KAIST, next door paddock neighbors and fellow Ape-runners. Your car was most definitely the best first-year car I have ever seen, and with a very intimidating first engine. Don't give up, and make sure your administrators know that you guys have made leaps and bounds in the right direction, and you will be in a great place for next year.

Fourth, I want to challenge the supposed "Aprilia sucko" as well. Kansas's issues with Endurance were not entirely Aprilia-resultant. Their performance, our performance, Auburn's performance all indicate that these engines are worthwhile. OU's car weighed 396 - what I would call an accomplishment with an aero package. On our first year engine iteration, we were making 55 hp with no dyno time. Also, any failure by the mentioned teams to finish top 3 (except for Kansas, obviously) is not the cause of the motor. Next year, with more time into the engines, the packages will be better refined, better designed, and even more reliable. After all, how many F4i's failed to pass endurance? How many Aprilia's?

[ACasson]

I'm thoroughly enjoying the forum conversations now. The public car analysis is great.

Once again, congratulations to everyone. Hopefully we all met/surpassed some or all of our goals for this year.

[Pennyman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ACasson:
Hopefully we all met/surpassed some or all of our goals for this year. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, awesome.

Here's my first impression of the design judging:

Firstly:
It seems as though all the judges had a list of questions they HAD to ask the teams. Talking with other teams kinda clued me into the fact that there's a sort of list that design judges had to ask to evaluate how much general knowledge a team had about a certain subject be it chassis material, suspension geometry, brake balance, etc...

Secondly:
Even though the judges had a list, they seemed to respond better to a bombardment of technical information, IE: "percent reduction in x, with a percent increase in y validated through testing etc" and basically never letting them get a word in due to the limited time.

Finally:
The judges seems to respond very quickly to visual cues. If your components look optimized, they will be more willing to ask you about them. If your parts look simple and in a "stage 1" sort of state, they will write it off right away.

Overall, I'd like to mention that it seems like the design event (at least the preliminaries) is more about your ability to cram as much information into the judges heads as possible in the allotted time. Maybe the semi's are different. I look forward to experiencing that next year.

[RacingManiac]

Thats my Formula SAE design experience in a nutshell I think, at least for the first round. Of course, it also helps if you have the appropreate judge to cram the proper information to. The lack of suspension chassis judge doesn't help, which was the case in 2007 and apparently in 2009 as well for the Toronto team in Michigan.

It helps if you have a prepared presentation beforehand and rehearse it well.

[Adambomb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The lack of suspension chassis judge doesn't help, which was the case in 2007 and apparently in 2009 as well for the Toronto team in Michigan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto, our suspension judge in Michigan this year was not accustomed to turning both right and left, which sort of nullified the impact of a good deal of our design. We really weren't on the same page, which made justifying our design somewhat hard.

+1 on having a prepared presentation, I just went in there feeling well-versed in all aspects of design, and then realized I had to communicate it all in like 2 minutes...don't think I pulled it off as well as I could have.

Also +1 on doing most of the talking and not letting the judges get too many words in, that just plain seems to "work." Especially with Claude, because he always has something completely off the wall to ask if he gets a chance. Always ends up being one of those questions that even if you know what he's talking about, you generally still have to think pretty hard about it.

[Hector]

I had a design judge at Michigan tell me that we should have designed our oil reservoir so that oil went in a clockwise direction on the way down, to work in harmony with the Coriolis effect. At first I thought he was joking, but I found out that he was dead serious. He ended up that part of judging by telling me "If you ever go to Australia, you'll be prepared."

+1 to keeping your judges on a short leash, not the other way around. As soon as I figured out that this guy was nuts, it made more sense to strongly direct the conversation rather than let him tell me about some irrelevant effect. It exists, just not on a bathtub scale as some high school science teacher would have you believe.

[Pennyman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The lack of suspension chassis judge doesn't help, which was the case in 2007 and apparently in 2009 as well for the Toronto team in Michigan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I just have to mention this...

As the suspension guy on the team, I found it very annoying that the guy judging brake systems just had to ask our brake dude about our anti roll bar, just because it happened to be in his line of sight.

This occurred in other areas of the car as well, when the chassis judge asked our chassis guy about brakes! Of course his response was "um, I know a little about that but let me have (insert name here) speak to you about it".

I simply don't appreciate it when judges ask members of my team about components they aren't supposed to be judging in the first place.

Anyone else run into this problem?

[VFR750R]

I hate to criticize a judge on the forum, but every Cup oil tank I've seen forces the oil in a counter-clockwise rotation (more for oil line packaging then any other reason). And not that I think the spinning oil is effected measurably by the Coriolis effect but in my mind that's the LAST thing you would want. Bathtubs start sucking air before the water is all gone, you can imagine the consequences in a dry sump tank!!!!

Since the Coriolis effect is created by the pickup and less by the return lines, should make you want to consider the shape and design of the pickup itself. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (Bathtub style drain bad)

[VFR750R]

Pennyman, there are sometimes specialized judges, but there is almost never a 'brake' judge in every design que. Judges have to be able to judge in multiple areas, and if you're not telling them something interesting about the car, they're going to ask about something they are interested in. If you think your job is hard explaining your car in 15 minutes, the judges have to absorb your car in 15 minutes. They feel a lot of pressure, same as you to make sure they got it right.

That said, there could probably be more planning ahead on the side of the judges so that there is not overlap, but not all overlap is bad. I rather have an average score on my cars components than risk getting hit hard by a single judge.
And there is not a specific design category for brakes, it falls under chassis. Now if an engine judge is asking about your roll centers...then he's probably not doing his job.

[exFSAE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Adambomb:
Ditto, our suspension judge in Michigan this year was not accustomed to turning both right and left, which sort of nullified the impact of a good deal of our design. We really weren't on the same page, which made justifying our design somewhat hard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might be surprised.. a lot of the Cup suspension engineers are very, very sharp. The left vs left & right thing is irrelevant. Many also have open wheel experience anyway. If it was the short, dark-haired dude from JGR that's been around competition a while.. he knows his stuff.

Then again maybe you're referring to someone else I'm not familiar with who's a clown http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[flavorPacket]

I have had Nascar suspension judges for 3 years in Michigan and made semifinals or better twice. They are not stupid, far from it. Turning one direction is just as complicated as turning in both, if not more so.

And you must have one hell of an ego to spew this crap on the forum. But don't worry, they're too busy to read this, and way too busy to offer you a job.

For the Toronto guys, I don't know what your design report looks like, but if you stress suspension design in it, you are more likely to get a good suspension judge. Always works for us.

[J. Vinella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pennyman:

I simply don't appreciate it when judges ask members of my team about components they aren't supposed to be judging in the first place.

Anyone else run into this problem? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the captains meeting they mentioned that anybody standing in your area is free game to get questions ask. This is how it has been and will be for as long as there is a design event. If somebody on your team is just wondering around during design then that is your problem. Also in the pits design judges will walk around and ask questions. If somebody looks official don't have the guy that did the chain guard answer a question about the wheels. It is the job of the "clueless" person to respond with:

"That is a great question, let me get X person, as he (or she) is the expert in system X and would be happy to discuss X system with you in detail" (Give a nice big smile and seam excited about the car)

[RacingManiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
I have had Nascar suspension judges for 3 years in Michigan and made semifinals or better twice. They are not stupid, far from it. Turning one direction is just as complicated as turning in both, if not more so.

And you must have one hell of an ego to spew this crap on the forum. But don't worry, they're too busy to read this, and way too busy to offer you a job.

For the Toronto guys, I don't know what your design report looks like, but if you stress suspension design in it, you are more likely to get a good suspension judge. Always works for us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We had no one to talk to us about suspension in 2007 in our design group period. We actually have a chassis/suspension judge, we've shove our presentation in his face and he walks away. We've talked to Doug Milliken and Claude after and both said we would've made semi if we were in their line. And we typically produce a heavily suspension centric report. Not to mention 2007 was the first time we have had a in-house developed simulation program and that was a bulk of the focus on our design report. It was a really wierd design event for us that year, and me and the other suspension guy felt pretty bad about it. In 2006 we score the highest point in our line for suspension as well, and in 2008 they made semi, this year again from talking to the current suspension leader they've had no suspension judge during their design event again.

It seems like a luck of the draw, but it really shouldn't be like that....

[MH]

At FS Germany 2008 we won Overall Dynamics (winning Enduro and Fuel Economy, finishing in the top of the rest of the dynamics) and winning the overall event (total of 919 points). But we were not among the 14 design finalists and only got 105 points for design.
Im my opinion, you can have the fanciest car, but e.g. if your car fails on suspension 3 times in 3 days, then you should not be a design finalist.

Perhaps design judging should take place after the dynamics? Just a thought...

cheers,
Miki Hegedus
Delft University of Technology

[flavorPacket]

Mike, I think that's a great idea. In the US, the finals used to be the morning after endurance, which allowed the judges to look at tire wear, etc. This should be instituted elsewhere.

[Yellow Ranger]

Results are up:
http://www.sae.org/students/fsaew2009results.pdf

I always thought that it would be cool if they didn't rush to do semi's Thursday night, and just waited until Friday night - after everyone has done the skidpad, accel and autox...

[AJoshi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MH:
At FS Germany 2008 we won Overall Dynamics (winning Enduro and Fuel Economy, finishing in the top of the rest of the dynamics) and winning the overall event (total of 919 points). But we were not among the 14 design finalists and only got 105 points for design.
Im my opinion, you can have the fanciest car, but e.g. if your car fails on suspension 3 times in 3 days, then you should not be a design finalist.

Perhaps design judging should take place after the dynamics? Just a thought...

cheers,
Miki Hegedus
Delft University of Technology </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was also true of us at Maryland during FSAE West 2008, where we took the overall dynamic lead (and 1st overall), but received only 100pts for design, and didn't make semi's. We were told that the only reason we didn't make finals was that we were over 500 lbs (we were at 509), but given that we won acceleration, the number itself shouldn't really mean anything compared to our performance.

[Zac]

results are posted

http://www.sae.org/students/fsaew2009results.pdf

[A Trained Professional]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rkellz007:
Josh,

Given the picture at the beginning of this page of posts I am not sure that the 'other' Oregon has an engineering program either ;-)

ryan

Those damn green and yellow hippies couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag. Oregon State on the other hand built their entire monocoque out of a wet paper bag, and then promptly engineered their way out.

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RacingManiac:
We had no one to talk to us about suspension in 2007 in our design group period. We actually have a chassis/suspension judge, we've shove our presentation in his face and he walks away. We've talked to Doug Milliken and Claude after and both said we would've made semi if we were in their line. And we typically produce a heavily suspension centric report. Not to mention 2007 was the first time we have had a in-house developed simulation program and that was a bulk of the focus on our design report. It was a really wierd design event for us that year, and me and the other suspension guy felt pretty bad about it. In 2006 we score the highest point in our line for suspension as well, and in 2008 they made semi, this year again from talking to the current suspension leader they've had no suspension judge during their design event again.

It seems like a luck of the draw, but it really shouldn't be like that.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a shame. The same thing happened to us in England in 2007. Oh well, that's why we go to FSG now.

[js10coastr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pennyman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The lack of suspension chassis judge doesn't help, which was the case in 2007 and apparently in 2009 as well for the Toronto team in Michigan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I just have to mention this...

As the suspension guy on the team, I found it very annoying that the guy judging brake systems just had to ask our brake dude about our anti roll bar, just because it happened to be in his line of sight.

This occurred in other areas of the car as well, when the chassis judge asked our chassis guy about brakes! Of course his response was "um, I know a little about that but let me have (insert name here) speak to you about it".

I simply don't appreciate it when judges ask members of my team about components they aren't supposed to be judging in the first place.

Anyone else run into this problem? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the reports... it sounds like the suspension failure on OSU was caused by the chassis area not understanding the braking loads.

On my formula hybrid team, I discovered that the EE's needed some guidance on packaging/building wiring harnesses as they usually don't have much/any experience with vibrations or stresses on a harness.

So while the suspension guy doesn't need to know about the stiffness of the brake pad material, he should have a general idea of what is going on.

[Adambomb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I have had Nascar suspension judges for 3 years in Michigan and made semifinals or better twice. They are not stupid, far from it. Turning one direction is just as complicated as turning in both, if not more so.

And you must have one hell of an ego to spew this crap on the forum. But don't worry, they're too busy to read this, and way too busy to offer you a job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I never called a judge stupid, that was all on you. If you re-read my post you will find that the chief problem was a communication barrier...we designed our report and boards for a left-right turning audience. I found that I had to explain some design methods that Claude taught us in Optimum G.

And I will agree, in many aspects only turning left is more complicated...at least our suspensions are symmetric left to right. But the problem is that the two types of suspensions are so different, design goals are different, strategies are different, hell even the lingo is different. We had to spend so much time talking about stuff I considered more along the lines of background material than the real meat and potatoes.

But then again, if everyone in that queue is in the same boat, perhaps there are points to be awarded on who can bridge the gap better. Just one more thing to be prepared for I suppose.

[Rachel]

Hmm... about design judges/judging...

Design finals DID take place after endurance (for whoever posted that they should).

I only got to sit in for design finals this year so I did not see any of the other cars but let me relay what I took from it. Not here to argue about this at all, I just want everyone to *hopefully* benefit.

The judges in general thought that the usual "lower" teams have improved greatly but the usual "top" teams seemed to be missing something this year. I even got this opinion from one of my bosses who has been a judge for only 2 years. I didn't see everyone's presentation so I can't say what was missing, but I would suggest practicing your presentation as often as you can and keep it in mind the whole year (why AM I picking this material/roll center/rigidity?). Practice in front of your alumni and have them grill you. It's easy to "wow" people that have never been to a competition but get people involved that know what's up, what you'll be asked, and hopefully they can even come up with new questions to throw you off.

For those of you that felt short-changed because a car that had a major failure made it to design finals...Don't hate me for this but...there is a *reason* why that car beat out the other 40 some odd cars. The judges are very passionate during their discussions and DO care about all the work you've put in to your car the entire year. They're not just throwing darts at a board for your scores. If that car made it to design finals, then the judges thought it deserved to be there. Now, that means a combination of a) it was a superb car and their presentation was immaculate and/or b) the other cars were not to its level. Still feel short-changed because YOU KNOW your car was better? Well, what can I say other than, make a better case to the judges during your presentation. I know it can be easy to fall into the "it's not fair" attitude but please, step back and look at it again even if you think you already did your best. You are an engineer, *you can always do better*. "Bad" judges aside, the good cars make it year after year and the bad cars don't. Just because you had one "bad" design judge (I know, it happens, see below for my plea to ease up on the judges) doesn't mean that all the other judges on your panel had the same opinion of your car. Also, just because Claude told you your car would be his top choice if you were in his line doesn't mean the other judges on his panel would agree! I am not even trying to make a case for above said car. I did not even get a good look at all the cars this year. Are you the only one that thinks it's odd that a car that broke its front suspension in the brake test made it to design finals? No, you are not. But do you know what that means? Try harder next year, because the car that broke during that brake test just beat you in design.

(That sounded a little mean but bottom line is do your damn best presentation ever and no, the judges are not idiots that overlooked some wishbones trying to leave a chassis.)

They DID want people from specific departments to have knowledge about other departments. They really wanted to emphasize system integration. For example, the chassis guy knowing where the suspension loads come from. And I don't just mean "from the wishbones!" I don't know how far they were going to take this... like, does the ECU guy need to know the weight distribution during braking? I can't really say. But I did witness a judge asking a suspension question to the chassis guy and after he did what we've all been trained to do (I'm sorry, please let me direct you to our suspension chief), the judge told him HE should know the answer. Kinda scary huh? I don't know if this is going to be a common theme for years to come but a way to prepare is to have everyone practice their design presentations in front of everyone else, and don't let everyone fall asleep during it! I think most teams have all their members memorize each department's goals but I guess the judges want more depth than that.

That's it for what I picked up from listening to the other judges. About some judges being "nuts"...well, I've never been involved with judge selection but the panel choice is made well in advance (at least for West it is). That's the whole reason design reports are turned in ahead of time. Judges are mailed a CD of all reports regardless if they're judging that specific car. Now, if they have time to read everyone's reports is a different story. Should judges on the same panel discuss things amongst themselves before hand? Maybe. Try to remember that every judge, tech, and cone worker (bless their-sometimes-blind hearts) are volunteering for your benefit. This includes the person given the tremendous task of deciding which judge goes with which school. It is very hard for the deciding person to know all judges personally and know their expertise. We also get new judges every year and it takes a few years for them to get settled in and be able to be that "top" judge everyone sadistically craves.

/ramble

And now for my favorite picture from comp, of course...
&lt;img src="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7wFkFPWupKJNtNRnaksOfw?feat=directlink"&gt;&lt;/img&gt;

[Rachel]

Argg, the huge post I just made has to be approved before it will show up!

Everyone, please wait in suspense.

[Dan G]

Yeah, what's the deal with that? It took three tries and my post with pictures still didn't show up. Someone eventually approved it, but why can't I just post pictures without "approval"?

[Aaron@Kaist]

The FSAE event in California was awesome,

For the KAIST team, it was a great learning experience and will serve as the baseline for our hopeful improvement over the next few years. I just wanted to give a special thanks to Cal Poly Pomona,

We didnt know we actually needed a push bar, and Cal Poly took time out of their schedule to go and make us one. They even painted it with gangster gold paint. Also, for giving us advice on suspension design, and some manufacturing processes that will help us next year.

Also to Kansas,
for helping us out with out engine, maps, and giving us a lot of good info about the aprilia.

and a big special thanks to UCI (IRVINE) for hosting us before and during the comp, and allowing us to use their workshop and tools, ez-up tent, generator...on and on....they were such a big help, and we were deeply moved by the whole team's generosity.

The FSAE event was special for us seeing everyone help eachother out, and I am greatly looking forward to attending next year with a working car.

Thanks again to everyone, and thanks for taking us in to the FSAE community.

Aaron Park
Team Captain
KAIST

If you any of you guys ever visit Korea for any reason, please give us a holler.

[JakeOz]

This year's SAE WEST was an awesome event. There was a lot of great competition going on throughout the dynamic events. Congratulations to all the teams that made it out to California to compete.

Below is a link to some photos that I took, mainly during the autocross and endurance events. The camera was not that great but some of the pictures turned out alright. E-mail me if you want a higher resolution copy of a particular shot. I also hope to have some video posted online in the next couple of days.

http://picasaweb.google.com/josman620

- Jake

[HA11S]

Does someone know anything about Kookmin Univ?

[Mike Cook]

I had Tim as a suspension design judge and while he may or may not had much experience judging before (I don't know...), he did a great job. The feed back he gave was amazingly simple and I think gave a lot of insight to what the judges look for from the top teams. A lot of feedback I have recieved through the years focused more on the details, but Tims advice focused more on the big picture stuff, like the actual design process.

Also, after being to a bunch of these competitions, I have very rarely seen a car make it to semi's that didn't deserve to be there. However thats a hard thing to see and admit when you're newer to fsae.

[Adambomb]

Yeah, after more thought on the whole design judging process, one other painful truth, that I know has been mentioned before, has made itself clear again: every design judge has their own specific tastes. Each one is generally at the top of their field, but has had different experiences getting there, so even two very experienced design judges will have very different opinions.

For example, from '05-'07 we used square tubing for the bars with our lower suspension nodes. The trick was to cut a window in them for the nodes, allowing us to tuck them in about an inch tighter for better kinematics at the expense of about 2 pounds of extra weight to get the square tubing to pass structural equivalency. In '08 Steve Fox critiqued our '07 car, and really didn't like that a main suspension node had a huge window cut into it. I knew why it was there, but didn't have any real convincing argument to really back it up. Later I stumbled upon a sheet of design judging notes from something like '03, which is where it was recommended to us to window the nodes. And who recommended this? THE great Carroll Smith.

So again, design judging is and always will be an incredibly subjective process. All the design judges are fully aware of this. I'm also fairly certain that even if they don't like something at a first glance, but you can properly justify it, you will still come out ahead. Pretty much every aspect of design has benefits and drawbacks, the key is to quantify your decision.

[Sisyphus]

Regarding OSU in Design, they actually passed a test for extra credit--they broke the car and had to, in very short order, develop and implement a fix that allowed them to finish the event and place well.

They must know what they are doing design-wise....

[flavorPacket]

Adambomb that is a very astute observation. I have seen many times in the design event where a judge goes outside their realm of expertise and makes critiques like that. The only way to combat this is to have copious amounts of correlated data to justify yourself. There is something screwy with most design judges where they turn off their opinions and beliefs if you throw enough data in their faces.

[Pennyman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gerry LaRue:
Regarding OSU in Design, they actually passed a test for extra credit--they broke the car and had to, in very short order, develop and implement a fix that allowed them to finish the event and place well.

They must know what they are doing design-wise.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to mention they're taking their car to Germany. I'm not sure if their fix will be re-done between now and then, but I'm seriously impressed that they made such a repair that they could potentially use through 2 events.

BTW A couple of my SJSU peeps and I will be attending FSG to root for our AMERICAN brethren. WOO!

[Hagmuller]

What kind of horsepower are teams getting out of the Aprillia SXV's?
Are people using stock Aprillia fuel injectors?
I haven't seen any figures on fuel consumption... for the teams that used the Ape, how much fuel did you use during endurance?

On a side note, I personally love the Aprillia for all that it is... but... I think much like a lot of Italian wizardry it will make you fall in love with it and break your heart in the same drive. Then again, I know of a Kawasaki engine that does the same thing so maybe that's bad analogy..

Also, I have heard rumors that Aprillia might be pulling the bike from it's lineup making it hard to find parts in the future for remaining Aprillia's... anyone else hear anything like this?


Alex Hagmuller
OSU FSAE
2009 Engine Team Consultant

[RacingManiac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Adambomb:


For example, from '05-'07 we used square tubing for the bars with our lower suspension nodes. The trick was to cut a window in them for the nodes, allowing us to tuck them in about an inch tighter for better kinematics at the expense of about 2 pounds of extra weight to get the square tubing to pass structural equivalency. In '08 Steve Fox critiqued our '07 car, and really didn't like that a main suspension node had a huge window cut into it. I knew why it was there, but didn't have any real convincing argument to really back it up. Later I stumbled upon a sheet of design judging notes from something like '03, which is where it was recommended to us to window the nodes. And who recommended this? THE great Carroll Smith.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have the same type of suspension pickup on our car, never really got picked on for it. But I would not be surprised it came from Carroll Smith, our Alumni's 2002 car was probably the genesis of the type of design that followed it to 2007, and much of the design on that car was based on Carroll's critique of the 2001 car.

[Thrainer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zac:
results are posted

http://www.sae.org/students/fsaew2009results.pdf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's up with half of the teams not attending and more than ten teams not passing the template? In FSG, new cars that don't pass the template are not allowed to run; different rules in the US?

[Wesley]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hagmuller:
What kind of horsepower are teams getting out of the Aprillia SXV's?
Are people using stock Aprillia fuel injectors?
I haven't seen any figures on fuel consumption... for the teams that used the Ape, how much fuel did you use during endurance?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're running an RXV (which isn't that much different) with the stock fuel injectors. In VIR we burned .812, and in West we burned .872 gal (good for 5th, behind Kansas' E85 Aprilia SXV at .829 adj and three singles.

We're making ~55hp, which is on the low side, but it's our first year running it. Reliability also hasn't been a big issue. You just have to know that you'll replace starters (easy) and maybe a sprag clutch or two (not as easy)

[Hagmuller]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wesley:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hagmuller:
What kind of horsepower are teams getting out of the Aprillia SXV's?
Are people using stock Aprillia fuel injectors?
I haven't seen any figures on fuel consumption... for the teams that used the Ape, how much fuel did you use during endurance?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're running an RXV (which isn't that much different) with the stock fuel injectors. In VIR we burned .812, and in West we burned .872 gal (good for 5th, behind Kansas' E85 Aprilia SXV at .829 adj and three singles.

We're making ~55hp, which is on the low side, but it's our first year running it. Reliability also hasn't been a big issue. You just have to know that you'll replace starters (easy) and maybe a sprag clutch or two (not as easy) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds more like a tuning issue with the starter and clutch.

[Dino]

Anyone know if we can get a hold of the raw endurance lap times?

[Yellow Ranger]

if you do the research on the aprilia's you'll know that there are a lot of issues with the starting system. We did ours before making the call to go to the ape. In order for the italians to meet their weight goal for the motor, they used a starter off a 50cc scooter. Because that starter lack huevous, they out fitted the engine with a decompressor system that opens the exhaust valve slightly to bleed off some of the compression built up by the cylinder. Aprilia has made a lot of revisions to the starter gearing and the ecu, even putting a 6 second limit on cranking to keep the motor from burning up. The sprags are pretty beefy but get damaged when the engine backfires, which happens with a poor tune or shitty starter.

Anyone whose tried to tune a motor knows it takes time, and with this italian hooker it takes even more. The 77 degree twin is a lot more difficult than the 4 cylinders we've messed with, but if your patient and work with it, they're a lot of fun!

If your thinking about switching to the APE, do your homework. Your going to go through starters and your going to go through sprags. There is a guy in New Hampshire that can rebuild the starters, but your still going to fry those, just not as often.

[Dino]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yellow Ranger:
if you do the research on the aprilia's you'll know that there are a lot of issues with the starting system. We did ours before making the call to go to the ape. In order for the italians to meet their weight goal for the motor, they used a starter off a 50cc scooter. Because that starter lack huevous, they out fitted the engine with a decompressor system that opens the exhaust valve slightly to bleed off some of the compression built up by the cylinder. Aprilia has made a lot of revisions to the starter gearing and the ecu, even putting a 6 second limit on cranking to keep the motor from burning up. The sprags are pretty beefy but get damaged when the engine backfires, which happens with a poor tune or shitty starter.

Anyone whose tried to tune a motor knows it takes time, and with this italian hooker it takes even more. The 77 degree twin is a lot more difficult than the 4 cylinders we've messed with, but if your patient and work with it, they're a lot of fun!

If your thinking about switching to the APE, do your homework. Your going to go through starters and your going to go through sprags. There is a guy in New Hampshire that can rebuild the starters, but your still going to fry those, just not as often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe. If you like the challenge you should give a single a try.

[Hagmuller]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dino:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yellow Ranger:
if you do the research on the aprilia's you'll know that there are a lot of issues with the starting system. We did ours before making the call to go to the ape. In order for the italians to meet their weight goal for the motor, they used a starter off a 50cc scooter. Because that starter lack huevous, they out fitted the engine with a decompressor system that opens the exhaust valve slightly to bleed off some of the compression built up by the cylinder. Aprilia has made a lot of revisions to the starter gearing and the ecu, even putting a 6 second limit on cranking to keep the motor from burning up. The sprags are pretty beefy but get damaged when the engine backfires, which happens with a poor tune or shitty starter.

Anyone whose tried to tune a motor knows it takes time, and with this italian hooker it takes even more. The 77 degree twin is a lot more difficult than the 4 cylinders we've messed with, but if your patient and work with it, they're a lot of fun!

If your thinking about switching to the APE, do your homework. Your going to go through starters and your going to go through sprags. There is a guy in New Hampshire that can rebuild the starters, but your still going to fry those, just not as often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe. If you like the challenge you should give a single a try. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. Tuning the CRF450x for OSU took some time, but we did put lots of research into the intial starting of the engine. After some preliminary goes at it we did get it started pretty easy within a few hours and then fine tuned from there. The biggest reccomendation i could make on that is to not assume that the people before you were doing it right.
Things like broken starter clutches and starter motors and boxes of fouled spark plugs are generally a good indication of this.

[BradyJ]

Okay, so I finally got some video of the first 30 mins of the endurance race up on youtube. Please excuse the momentary camera shake, as I was in an uncomfortable (and slightly precarious) position.

Endurance 1 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fNo8zlmFNs)

Endurance 2 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caaTtiUm9sA)

Endurance 3 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWWyz_F4OEs)

Here are some pics that Zach Alliman, a guy on our team took:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_266yRC3Of1w/SkYubjniOhI/AAAAAAAAApE/z442kWhF_qU/s1600-h/P1030940.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_266yRC3Of1w/SkYub334aDI/AAAAAAAAApM/h6uf-Ij2I-M/s1600-h/P1030941.JPG

I have to say that the camaraderie at this last competition was top notch, and the endurance race was the most exciting I've seen!

Here's to a repeat performance of RIT and Oregon State in Germany!

-Jonathan
OSU Engine Team

[Hagmuller]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BradyJ:
Okay, so I finally got some video of the first 30 mins of the endurance race up on youtube. Please excuse the momentary camera shake, as I was in an uncomfortable (and slightly precarious) position.

Endurance 1 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fNo8zlmFNs)

Endurance 2 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caaTtiUm9sA)

Endurance 3 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWWyz_F4OEs)

Here are some pics that Zach Alliman, a guy on our team took:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_266yRC3Of1w/SkYubjniOhI/AAAAAAAAApE/z442kWhF_qU/s1600-h/P1030940.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_266yRC3Of1w/SkYub334aDI/AAAAAAAAApM/h6uf-Ij2I-M/s1600-h/P1030941.JPG

I have to say that the camaraderie at this last competition was top notch, and the endurance race was the most exciting I've seen!

Here's to a repeat performance of RIT and Oregon State in Germany!

-Jonathan
OSU Engine Team </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great video Brady! That's pretty exciting stuff!
Nice work Team!

[BradyJ]

In case the pictures never get approved in the previous message, you can right click and hit "view image"

-Jonathan

[CatSplat]

Here's my photos from FSAE West, the rule that only allowed photographers on track at the same time as their cars made it so I could only get pics of the cars that happened to be around when the Calgary car was out, unfortunately.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/c...s/72157620520827313/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/catsplat/sets/72157620520827313/)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3597/3666687947_8e0073ba4f_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3389/3667493348_1127853c81_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3570/3667495562_5bd1252c1a_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2607/3666691735_32730470b3_o.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/3667495660_f0f3fe566e_o.jpg

[Zac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dino:
Anyone know if we can get a hold of the raw endurance lap times? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might be able to get your times if you contact one of the SAE organizers or the official score keeper but you probably won't be able to get all of the lap times.

[James Waltman]

My Endurance pictures are up.
The gallery:
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman...t/Endurance_Gallery/ (http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Endurance_Gallery/)
The zip file with everything from the gallery is here:
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman...CE_JAMES_WALTMAN.zip (http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/2009_FSAE_WEST_ENDURANCE_JAMES_WALTMAN.zip)

I’m happy to share with anyone – email me if you’d like to use them for anything other than personal use (like for a team website). I may have some of your school even if it’s not in the gallery – just ask.

Here’s a few:

Missouri S&T
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/Endurance/IMG_8993_resized1000_%232_psweb.jpg
Washington
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/Endurance/IMG_9110_resized1000_%2367_psweb.jpg
Oregon State
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/Endurance/IMG_9169_resized1000_%2314_psweb.jpg
UTA
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/Endurance/IMG_9224_resized1000_%2313_psweb.jpg
Cal
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/Endurance/IMG_9667_resized1000_%2347_psweb.jpg
Illinois
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/Endurance/IMG_9735_resized1000_%2315_psweb.jpg
UCR
http://www.wwufsae.com/Waltman/Pictures/Hosted/Competition/2009_FSAE_West/Web_Linked/Endurance/IMG_9760_resized1000_%2336_psweb.jpg

[CatSplat]

What the heck, I posted some pics and it says I posted phrases that needed mod approval. Bizarre.

Well, here's the Flickr link anyway.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/c...s/72157620520827313/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/catsplat/sets/72157620520827313/)

[Wesley]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hagmuller:
Things like broken starter clutches and starter motors and boxes of fouled spark plugs are generally a good indication of this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The starter problem with the Aprilias is a known factory issue - they've tried to address it several times. Many of the bikes themselves go through 3 or 4 starters in their lifetimes, and the fact that there's a guy rewinding them specifically speaks to the market there are for these things. Any team running an Ape will have a couple of replacement starters on hand at any time.

Anyone who thinks the starter related problems are a result simply of "poor tuning" is ignorant.

And if there were people before us doing it, then at least we'd know if the thing ran! We were pioneering for our team, we've never run anything but 4-cyls.

[Hagmuller]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wesley:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hagmuller:
Things like broken starter clutches and starter motors and boxes of fouled spark plugs are generally a good indication of this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The starter problem with the Aprilias is a known factory issue - they've tried to address it several times. Many of the bikes themselves go through 3 or 4 starters in their lifetimes, and the fact that there's a guy rewinding them specifically speaks to the market there are for these things. Any team running an Ape will have a couple of replacement starters on hand at any time.

Anyone who thinks the starter related problems are a result simply of "poor tuning" is ignorant.

And if there were people before us doing it, then at least we'd know if the thing ran! We were pioneering for our team, we've never run anything but 4-cyls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well excuse my Ignorance. I only know enough to be dangerous.

Alex Hagmuller
OSU FSAE Engine Team

[BeaverGuy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wesley:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hagmuller:
Things like broken starter clutches and starter motors and boxes of fouled spark plugs are generally a good indication of this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The starter problem with the Aprilias is a known factory issue - they've tried to address it several times. Many of the bikes themselves go through 3 or 4 starters in their lifetimes, and the fact that there's a guy rewinding them specifically speaks to the market there are for these things. Any team running an Ape will have a couple of replacement starters on hand at any time.

Anyone who thinks the starter related problems are a result simply of "poor tuning" is ignorant.

And if there were people before us doing it, then at least we'd know if the thing ran! We were pioneering for our team, we've never run anything but 4-cyls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alex was probably talking about mine and my predecessors' great problems with getting our ZX6R engine to reliably start. Previous teams had taken to making replacement parts for the starter clutch pins because they broke them so often. In my senior year we never actually blew up a starter clutch but still had plenty of problems with fouled plugs and and not getting the engine to start.

[Wesley]

My post was not meant to be offensive, and I apologize if it came off as such.

The tune will kill the starter, you are absolutely correct. That's definitely what killed our first one or two. The system is just marginal to begin with.

[Hagmuller]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wesley:
My post was not meant to be offensive, and I apologize if it came off as such.

The tune will kill the starter, you are absolutely correct. That's definitely what killed our first one or two. The system is just marginal to begin with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, None taken. I am very interested in the Aprillia for what it is, but there are few reasons why we didn't go for it. If I were to buy a motorcycle it probably would be the 550 SXV.

[Raechel]

We ran a CRF450X for the second year this year... Lots of issues with that but the root cause was probably the fact that we were way behind schedule. Starting issues can be dealt with given enough time and effort. It's kind of funny that people are talking about running singles because we're actually switching back to a 4-cylinder for next year. At this point in time it's a better choice for us, but we'll have to keep in mind those 100 points for economy for the future...

We almost had a tub failure like OSU, but luckily we found cracking before anything too catastrophic happened. Funnily enough it was a design judge checking the front suspension for compliance that led us to find the problem. I guess that's part of their job, huh?

Still, the tub repair took long enough that we didn't go to sound/brake until Thursday, and we missed accel & skidpad because we didn't pass until right before lunch.

We have lots of improvements in mind for the 2010 car. One of the big things is reorganizing and restructuring the team, since we had some severe issues regarding communication and leadership (or rather, lack thereof).

(Sorry to the Auburn guys that I didn't stop by to say hello... Things got kind of crazy and I ran out of time. Impressive engine fix though!)

Also can I just say that I'm proud that we started a Twitter trend. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Great job to everyone who came to Fontana! Everyone really stepped up a level this year and it was cool to see. We'll be back next year to kick some ass. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Go bears!

Raechel
UC Berkeley

[Wesley]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hagmuller:
I am very interested in the Aprillia for what it is, but there are few reasons why we didn't go for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very understandable, I think if we didn't have ties with a local engine rebuilder and other schools running the Aprilia, we definitely wouldn't have run it ourselves.

They're just so cute and tiny for 550cc's!

[Thrainer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jersey Tom:
Autocross results...?

#1 - Goodyear
#2 - Goodyear
#3 - Goodyear </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are these of the new Goodyear compound which is heating up quicker than the older one?


Kansas University "Jayhawk", I love the look of your new car. I was looking at your website, but can't find any information about your new car, pictures etc.

When looking at the pictures on page 8, I see several cars (Missouri S&T, UTA) that don't seem to have a legal sight tube. Was that a problen in Scruteneering?

[michaelwaltrip]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thrainer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jersey Tom:
Autocross results...?

#1 - Goodyear
#2 - Goodyear
#3 - Goodyear </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are these of the new Goodyear compound which is heating up quicker than the older one?


Kansas University "Jayhawk", I love the look of your new car. I was looking at your website, but can't find any information about your new car, pictures etc.

When looking at the pictures on page 8, I see several cars (Missouri S&T, UTA) that don't seem to have a legal sight tube. Was that a problen in Scruteneering? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, all of the top three were on 2696's i believe.

and i see perfectly legal sight tubes on both of those cars. it only has to be 3 inches (75mm) long.

[Erich Ohlde]

Thrainer. thanks for the interest in the car. Our website is one of the things that was on the back burner this year. we hope to have it updated soon and provide proper updates through out the coming year

[moose]

The sight tube is probably fine.. but hidden/short sight tubes make it really tough for the guys working Fuel on Enduro day. Those are by far the hardest to fill up exactly to the line since its so hard to actually see the fuel sneaking up.

[Yellow Ranger]

So I'm curious, has anyone did back to back testing with the new Hoosier 25Bs and the Goodyear 2696s? We spent some time comparing the two and really liked the Hoosiers... I know that the 2692s were more preferred over the 25As (our team included) but I know of a few teams that only ran the Goodyears due to time constraints on tire testing...

Anyone? Anyone?

[Neil S]

I questioned that rule in Michigan last year while we went through post endurance tech. Madison's setup was hidden and they had to remove a panel to see it, but was told it was fine as long as the sight tube could be accessed in a timely manner.

[DiscoRover]

This post is an attempt to explain and clarify the events surrounding the Oregon State chassis failure
from an internal perspective. We know our team made mistakes that lead to this failure, but we have
learned from this incident and are happy to pass what we have learned onto the FSAE community.

Before we begin, we would also like to thank everyone who supported us with encouragement,
suggestions and supplies. We had very few of the materials for the repairs on hand and are extremely
grateful to the teams that helped us out with the materials we needed.

As a team we always try very hard to get through the technical inspection process as early as
possible so we can deal with any unforeseen problems. We were happy to be among the first through
scrutineering, first through fuel and tilt, and the second team to complete the noise test and attempt
the brake test. This was all done by about 11 am on Thursday. It was being this far ahead that gave
us the opportunity to recover from the failure that followed.

Let us begin the explanation of our failure by saying that, although we had not specifically attempted
the brake test in competition form before this competition, we had demonstrated the ability to lock up
all our tires during testing. The reason we had not specifically practiced this test was we did not want
to flat spot any of our good tires before competition. This was the only part of the scrutineering
process that we had not specifically practiced.

From previous years experience, we bumped up the normal operating pressure of our tires to ~30 psi
to make it easier to lock all tires simultaneously. This was done not out of concern for passing the
test, but to lock the tires for an extended period so it would be clear to the officials. However, when
the driver hit the brakes at the end of the run the car hopped up and down and came sliding to stop.
Although it was not apparent at the time of the break, we later found, when re-attempting the brake
test after our repair, that the higher tire pressures were causing the front suspension of our car to hop
on the front tires. When we made our third attempt of the brake test, after we had identified the
hopping, we ran normal tire pressures and immediately passed.

When the car broke, it took everyone on our team by surprise, and there were several minutes of
disbelief and shock as we analyzed the failure and considered that our car--which we had spent so
many long nights on--may be finished before ever competing. The team’s collective heart sank as we
witnessed the failure of our first monocoque chassis, which represented so many hours of work. The
thing we are most proud of out of the whole competition was the team coming together in those few
moments, rejecting the notion that our car was finished and rising with the a great desire to compete.

The failure point was the front-lower-rear A-arm mount interface to the monocoque. This is a point of
high compression loads under braking, as our lower A-arm angle is fairly shallow to allow for steering
clearances. On the left side, the G10 fiberglass hard point within the monocoque was ripped out
through the bottom of the monocoque with the suspension point still attached to the G10 block. On
the right side, one of the M5 bolts attaching the suspension clevis to the monocoque sheared, and the
clevis rotated, kinking the A-arm. As a result of the lack of support from both lower rear A-arm points,
the entire front A-arm assembly was yielded and rotated around the wheel center about 45 degrees.
Fortunately, both pullrods and steering links were intact except for a few failed rod ends. The
outboard suspension was also undamaged.


http://picasaweb.google.com/The.Delany/OsuBeavs#5354167897722178402

http://picasaweb.google.com/The.Delany/OsuBeavs#5354167894808302866

Our A-arms were not what caused the failure, and we are quite confident in the original design being both analyzed and designed correctly. We plan to remake these parts identical to the originals. Several revisions of the front geometry took place during the design phase, and the final suspension loads were not well analyzed. This being our first monocoque car our analysis was centered more around completing the SEF and manufacturing the monocoque than extensive analysis of load states.

The A-arms were twisted back to near straight and caped top and bottom with sheet steel to fully support the tubes against buckling and provide anti-intrusion protection. We did not have our A-arm jig with us, so we welded the upper A-arms in place on the good suspension points. We looked up the point-to-point relations of the lower A-arm points and welded them based on this geometry. The damaged section of the monocoque was cleanly cut back so that only the undamaged fibers and core remained. Two 6.4 mm (0.25 inch) plates of G10 were stacked to completely fill the void of the damaged area.

http://picasaweb.google.com/The.Delany/OsuBeavs#5354167890812357138

In order to be completely sure that our repair would be adequate without the time to do extensive calculations, we added aluminum plates to both the top and bottom sides of the monocoque floor to fully bridge all structural loads between the left and right sides of the car. Since limited materials were available, 1.5 mm (0.060”) plate was used. We were well aware that this would change many aspects of our suspension geometry by some amount that we were not able to quantify at that time, but the changes made were small and we estimated that the overall effects would be minimal. Updated kinematic analysis will be completed shortly.

The aluminum plates were clamped in place and drilled using the monocoque as a drill guide. The inner plies of the damaged section remained, and the holes from the bolt heads provided excellent reference for the torn out suspension mount. Both inner and outer surfaces of the monocoque as well as the aluminum plates were sanded to a rough surface, and the entire assembly was bonded together with Hysol 9360. In addition, rivets were added to help clamp the assembly together and prevent peel ply propagation around the outside edge. To prevent bolt shear failure, the cross sectional area of the bolts that interface the monocoque to the lower A-arm mounts were increased by about 30%--from 5 mm to 6.4 mm (0.25 inch).

Once we had the car completely re-assembled, we quickly discovered that the failure had also caused some core damage to the monocoque near the upper A-arm mounts. Knowing we were trading time on the course for time to fix the car, we quickly added some 3 mm (1/80.125 inch) aluminum plates under each of the four upper suspension mounts to spread the large compressive point load of the upper A-arms. The change in camber was adjusted for by removing outboard camber shims. We were aware this would change our kingpin inclination but were primarily concerned with further failure prevention and getting points for skidpad and acceleration. After our team and the scrutineers were convinced that the repairs were ok and the vehicle was safe, we attempted and passed the brake test, then took the car to the practice area to test the handling out. We then went on to compete in the morning dynamic events. We were happy to have had no problems or indication of any problems from the repaired area from that point on. We believe this repair will be adequate for the remaining life of the car.

http://picasaweb.google.com/The.Delany/OsuBeavs#5354167891996811410

http://picasaweb.google.com/The.Delany/OsuBeavs#5354167891605416290

Our first acceleration run from our first driver was the fastest of the day at that point at 4.07 sec. However, in our haste, we had neglected to make the suspension changes that our acceleration drivers are were accustomed to, and when our driver hit the brakes he was unprepared for the unstable response and headed off into the grass in a wide sliding spin. This was not related to our earlier failure other than it had put us under a time crunch. We made the suspension adjustments and re-ran our drivers with no problems (but slightly slower). We changed to our suspension setup for skidpad and got in our runs just as the events closed. Our drivers were disappointed with the skidpad performance of our car, which was slower then what we had previously tested.

A closer look at our upper A-arm repair attempt revealed significant deformation of the aluminum plates and core damage in that area and subsequent loss of camber stiffness. During the lunch break
and driver's walk of the autocross course, we filled the weakened core area with 5 min epoxy and replace the four original aluminum squares plates with two large aluminum plates that bridged both across the front and rear upper A-arm mounts (seen in the A-arm image above). The effect was dramatic and the deflection was reduced to better then it ever had been. This was final step in the repairs to our monocoque, and we saw no further deformation of the aluminum plates on our upper A-arms. We changed to our autocross setup and went to the practice area.

We had known that our front outboard suspension geometry was definitely not as designed (not even exactly the same side for side) as a result of the twisted A-arms. Specifically, the caster had been reduced, causing our mechanical trail to be near zero on one side. Our autocross drivers immediately commented on the "odd feeling" in the steering and the tendency of the feedback in the steering wheel to reverse near the traction limit. We believe the pneumatic trail was very small or reversing near the traction limit; with little or no mechanical trail, this would cause the restoring moment at the steering wheel to reverse. Given the limited time and resources available, we adjusted tire pressures in accordance with driver feedback in the practice area and found a setting that the drivers felt comfortable on. These settings were used for autocross and endurance. We are very proud of the fact that we were the fastest non-aero car in autocross and endurance.

We hope that this narrative has provided useful information to the group.

Jeff Delany
Team Captain

Bill Murray
Technical Lead

Chris Patton
Suspension Design

[Mike Cook]

I do not think the R25b's are much different than the r25a's for what it is worth.

I have never tested on the new Goodyears.

[Zac]

I know Duke did some back to back testing before Detroit. You might want to try to get in touch with those guys to get their take on it.

From everything I've been told, compared to either R25A or R25B, the D2692 was easier to drive consistently but more sensitive to car setup. Since the D2696 is only a tread compound change it shouldn't behave that differently (it's just faster).

[duckei]

First off I'd like to say congrats to all the teams! Especially RIT (New York RePreSENT!) Also I was really impressed with the A-Game San Jose State brought. Great job and great finish.

Now that most of the important talk is done, I feel like talking. So I will.

Being my sixth and final competition, I can say that this was the most memorable (Dave and Buster's anyone?.) Awesome cars. Awesome teams. The worst comp I've been in was probably Michigan this year. We had a lot of engine and tuning problems to complement the rain.

This was also my fourth endurance race (RPI's second driver) by myself. I swear, every time I go out on track cars disappear and its all eyes on me haha. Unfortunately when I got the pointed black I knew people were REALLY watching. California this year the throttle was making the car buck like a freakin bronco - couple that with catastrophic oversteer and you have yourself a good show. I'm typically a smooth driver (California last year was nice) and I was doing all I could this year to keep that car on track. Aside from that, the course was awesome as per usual, big props to west coast SCCA.

These competitions have been a great test of my driving ability, this one especially. I'm sure everyone has had late nights with Gran Turismo (well back in the day, not while you're trying to finish a race car), spent weekends at parking lots, abandoned airfields, and played F1 challenge excessively. I wish I could have karted when I was younger, but a single parent family in Vermont who has a money gobbling hobby farm doesn't really allow for that...

On a side note, driving 6500 miles total in one week is a fantastic way to get out of working.

I'm out. Have fun everyone.

-Ian

[Trevor]

As a side note, the pictures in DiscoRover's post (showing the monocoque failure and subsequent repair) can be viewed by right clicking on the image icon and selecting "view image"

[Thrainer]

Oregon State, how did you bond in the hard points? I'd say they shouldn't rip out without BOTH face sheets coming off. If you use a decent epoxy, you can get about of 40 MPa of shear adhesion.

These aluminium plates must now be... roughly 10% of your chassis weight? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thanks for the explanation and congratulations on the podium finish. Looking forward to competing with you in a week.

Thomas

[97'scort]

Hey! I'm looking for any pictures of the UVic team, whether with our car, helping other teams out or just hanging around. You can send them to kgilmar@uvic.ca or point me towards a link http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thanks!

[RANeff]

Hey Everyone,

Im looking to get in contact with the Yamaha Rep that was at the California Competition. I talked to him there, but do not have his contact info, anyone think they might have it?

Thanks
Ryan