Formula SAE Holy Grails

[Pennyman]

After being a part of this amazing project for 2 years, I've come to realize that there are certain goals that teams can achieve that are very difficult to accomplish. These go beyond winning overall or having the fastest car, but are underlying achievements that I think are incredible.

-Lightest car ever (Penn/delft)

-Winning every dynamic event (Stuttgart)

-Winning design AND cost (RIT)

-Most horsepower

-First drivable car (most testing time, Cornell?)

-4cyl car with 13in rims less than 400lbs, my personal favorite (TUG)

-Most consistent year to year (UTA?)

-Biggest comeback after failure (OSU)

-getting a perfect 150 in design (ETS in '96)

-Most Lady Gaga played

I know there's some others, but can't think of them at the moment. The ones posted above are only based on my experience, but I may be wrong on a few of them too. Feel free to chime in!

[Dsenechal]

Originally posted by Pennyman:

-Most Lady Gaga played



Looking at some of the people on our team... makes me kinda wonder if they single handily give UE this category... seriously tho

[Adam Vaughan]

+1 4cyl car with 13in rims less than 400lbs, my personal favorite (TUG)

[tgman2]

Having a car that survives testing and comp with no problems

[Simon Dingle]

-Most horsepower
Not quite sure how anyone could really know this...


-A 4cyl car winning fuel economy (has anyone managed this?)

-Self developed engine (Western Washington's V8)

-The perfect 1000pts

[Tobias Hoernig]

Originally posted by Simon Dingle:
-A 4cyl car winning fuel economy (has anyone managed this?)


FSAE-Italy in 2009 the Top3 cars in fuel were 4cyl engines (Uni Siegen, TU Graz, Uni Stuttgart)

also in 2008 a 4cyl car won fuel economy there (TU Graz)

[Jimmy_seven]

Simon,

We should go to Italy! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[JamesWolak]

-Most horsepower (Helsinki*)

The graph is defiantly controversial and has some knows holes in the story (the relation of torque and HP is not correct) but its the highest graph I have seen or heard of.

http://www.vhtracing.com/HPF00...nd_Torque_Curves.jpg (http://www.vhtracing.com/HPF005_Power_and_Torque_Curves.jpg)

[Simon Dingle]

FSAE-Italy in 2009 the Top3 cars in fuel were 4cyl engines Maybe not quite as impressive as I first thought it was...


James, registration is 3rd of Feb. I'll let Yan know that we need to raise another £7000 :S

[Hector]

Originally posted by Simon Dingle:
-The perfect 1000pts
This is by far the hardest (duh) because some team will always bring a car with a Briggs motor and wheel from a VW Beetle and set the curve on the cost report.

I talked to a team in Michigan in 2007 that claimed that their budget was so small, their goal every year was to win cost report. Interesting goal...

[TorqueWrench]

Originally posted by Hector:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Simon Dingle:
-The perfect 1000pts
This is by far the hardest (duh) because some team will always bring a car with a Briggs motor and wheel from a VW Beetle and set the curve on the cost report.

I talked to a team in Michigan in 2007 that claimed that their budget was so small, their goal every year was to win cost report. Interesting goal... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I resemble that remark. Don't worry, it will be coming back again to terrify the cost reports and fuel economy results for one last year.

EDIT: Don't think the steering wheel was us, but the engine fits and that statement/budget seems familiar.

[TacoPete]

Winning cost isn't a bad goal. In the overall scheme it's worth more than skid pad and accel. I know it has helped our baja team do well over the past year.

[VFR750R]

I'm too lazy to do the research but who's gotten the highest points total in a competition (cause obviously no one has gotten 1000 before).

And the highest hp one is hard to nail down without a dyno at competition anymore, and even when it was there, not every top team got on it.

As far as 'perfect' 150 in design, I think several dozen teams have done it. Not getting a full 150 is a recent development.

I'm not sure of OSU's story, but Cornell destroying the car in 2003 against a granite curb 10 days before competition, followed by a 9th place finish should be in the running.

[The AFX Master]

I remember you guys (cornell) destroying an engine on enduro, to rebuild it in hours and then win Road And Track @ Ford Grounds 2007...

[Simon Dingle]

I'm too lazy to do the research but who's gotten the highest points total in a competition
I'm pretty sure it's Stuttgart with 961.3 at Australia in 2008.

[RenM]

what about most finished endurances in a row?

[Scrappy]

I think running under 4 seconds in accel at comp is a pretty cool thing to do. When we won it at 07 FSAE West, we ran 3.894 with no launch control and manual shifting. The track was super hot and the tires were super sticky by the 4th run. To say that I was pumped would be an understatement. I checked SAE's results on the website, and the farthest back I saw where accel times were recorded in the files was 2002. So since that point, its been the fastest time recorded at all comps in North America, aside from that short accel run at VIR the one year. Not sure about the fastest times recorded in Europe or Australia, I know there have been other teams that have won with under 4 second runs.

I thought I read that someone ran faster at East earlier than 2002. If there is any documentation to prove it or if anybody knows, by all means speak up!

[Jimmy_seven]

TU Graz managed a 3.737 this year at Italy which is believed to be the European record, there were some other pretty quick times at that event too.

[Bemo]

Stralsund had a spaceframe car with alu-rims and a 4-cyl which weighed only 185kg last year.

Most finished Endurances in a row should be TUG, as far as I know their DNF at UK 08 was the first one in their team history.
We had eight finished Endurances in a row but I think TUG has more.

At the moment we have five overall wins in a row. That should definitely be a record ;-)

And the 961 points in Aussie 08 are correct. We did that, and we couldn't find any better result.

[JamesWolak]

I agree. Fastest acceleration and skid pad times should be noted.

FStotal has a lot of this info.

http://fstotal.com/statistics

[Thomas MuWe]

@bemo:

TUG finished 12 in a row. The first endu in team history was a DNF.
Your hand full of overall wins in a row is just awesome! :-)
Before Stuttgart, it was RMIT with 959, right?

Skid Pad times:
I think a good bet is Amberg-Weider Italy 2008 with 4.88s or maybe TU Munich 2005 FS UK with something around 4.9s.

Acc: Not downhill it is TUG with 3.73 this year in Italy. Before it was in the same city but the other one had the record with 3.78s @UK 07.
Nothing more to add. :-)

What about lowest fuel ever?????

[Luniz]

We had a 3.740 in Silverstone 2009 but I have to admit that it was 75 YARDS only, which equals something around 68 METRES. In Hockenheim '09 a 4.14 has been enough for the win for us.
I am quite surprised by the magnificent Accel times from Varano/Italy 2009, quite a lot of teams under 4sec, what was going on there? Sticky asphalt, high temperatures or heavy tailwind?
It's a shame we couldn't afford to register for this competition by the time the registration was happening. I think, our little dragster would have performed quite well there ;-)

[Bemo]

TuFast claims the record in Skid Pad back from 05 at FS UK, but I don't know the time. Couldn't find it on their website.

At Italy this year it was really hot at accel day and the asphalt was extremely sticky, but I think it also was slightly downhill. And the launch control of the TUG car was just awesome!

Lowest fuel ever could be in Silverstone this year by Aberdeen, I think they used 1.88 liters or something like that. Great effort for a rooky team.

[Luniz]

Well, the "manual launch control" (just none...) of our car seemed to be superior to the electronic system of the TUG car in the UK, in Hockenheim and in Austria ;-) Just as I said, it is a shame we couldnt compete in Italy 2009

[Simon Dingle]

What about lowest fsufuel ever????? Almost certainly aberdeen at FSUK 09, they only used 1.692L!

I think everyone's fuel consumption was lower at FSUK due to the rain, we (Brunel) used 50% less fuel at FSUK compared to FSG the same year.

I seem to remember that Aberdeen were using a 300cc engine too, there's no doubt that that helps!

[terra_dactile]

In Uk 2005 TUFast had a skid pad time under 5 seconds, I remember speaking with them and the had practised it all summer and had found some pretty good tricks to lower their times.

I remember during the endurance race their hole upright,wheel assemby including a-arms ripped off the car under hard braking due to some sort of glued composite assembly, It was a beautiful car. That year the Lulea car also had a very professional setup and it was TU Graz first Carbon Tub which was really nice but had a steering system, that was really hard to steer (karting style). In all that was a stepping year that seperated the level of performance from previous years, with lots of team having good use of electronics to get really fast acceleration times. During endurance we have photos of Helsinki going on to 2 wheels while going through the slaloms, as always they had really fast an agressive drivers.

I dont remember the exact time but im really certain Tu Fast was under 5 seconds in skid pad event!

Jude Berthault
ETS FSAE 2003-2009

[Scrappy]

Originally posted by Luniz:
We had a 3.740 in Silverstone 2009 but I have to admit that it was 75 YARDS only, which equals something around 68 METRES.

Hahaha, that same thing happened at the Goodyear Shootout in 2007. Either someone admitted to it only being 75 yards, or somebody figured it out after several teams ran blistering times. U of M had their turbo car running the whole thing in 1 gear, and they ran 3.635. It would have been cool to see what their time would have been if it had been 75 meters.

[Zac]

For what it's worth, Nick set FTD in the 99 Akron Car with a high 3.5 something. We were using the house car to test the timing systems. Nick also won Skidpad and came in third in Autocross.

but I'm pretty sure the accel event was just paced off instead of actually measured. Someone from MSU was very upset about that.

[flavorPacket]

unofficially, the 07 Michigan car ran consistent 3.8s for 75m courses, all in 4th gear. I guess that's what making 105 PS and 86 Nm does. Too bad it was completely undriveable and we ended up converting it to NA.

[ed_pratt]

FSTotal records have the "running snail" team down as skidpad record holder with a 4.88 pulling 1.44g

pretty impressive!

ed

[Fred G]

Restricted or unrestricted???

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fred


Originally posted by Zac:
For what it's worth, Nick set FTD in the 99 Akron Car with a high 3.5 something. We were using the house car to test the timing systems. Nick also won Skidpad and came in third in Autocross.

but I'm pretty sure the accel event was just paced off instead of actually measured. Someone from MSU was very upset about that.

[Yellow Ranger]

Definitely remember that car, very fast. Also, very non-restricted at the Goodyear shootout. Man, I can still see the roster tails coming off that car on that super dusty track!

That event was a blast! Even though our car probably took the 'ugly as f@ck' award.

[Zac]

Oh, it's unrestricted. I believe the motor is a stock F2.

[Stocky Fast 1]

Even unrestricted the thing weighs a ton, but a few extra ponies helps i'm sure. I wouldn't call it an ugly car either, very nice body work, heavy but nice.

[Lorenzo Pessa]

Originally posted by Bemo:
At Italy this year it was really hot at accel day and the asphalt was extremely sticky, but I think it also was slightly downhill.

You are right: there was an altidude difference of about .4 m in the acceleration in Varano.

Lorenzo

[RacingManiac]

Originally posted by RenM:
what about most finished endurances in a row?

Toronto had a good run for that by our standard I think...from 2005 UK to 2008 Germany, with 2 events per season.

[Superfast Matt McCoy]

I thought the FSAE Holy Grail was a sweet job after graduation.

[Thrainer]

Originally posted by Lorenzo Pessa:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bemo:
At Italy this year it was really hot at accel day and the asphalt was extremely sticky, but I think it also was slightly downhill.

You are right: there was an altidude difference of about .4 m in the acceleration in Varano.

Lorenzo </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure it was the right length? We had a pretty fast time of 3.79 s, but if I remember correctly, the final velocity was much smaller than normally. Further, I thought there was too much wheel spin for "extremely sticky", but maybe that feeling is from not having the rear wheel speed sensors connected and thus no TC.

Thomas

[Felippe Vieira - Fórmula FEI]

the FORMULA FEI team from brasil won every dynamic event at the brazilian competition on 2008!! same as sttutgart

[kapps]

Originally posted by Superfast Matt McCoy:
I thought the FSAE Holy Grail was a sweet job after graduation.

I'll second that... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Mike Cook]

I have yet to find anything I really enjoy as much as FSAE....

[Adam Vaughan]

+1 I have yet to find anything I really enjoy as much as FSAE....

[J. Vinella]

Originally posted by Superfast Matt McCoy:
I thought the FSAE Holy Grail was a sweet job after graduation.

Absolutely!

I would not trade a great job for any/all of the above accomplishments.

FSAE puts you in the position to learn basic engineering truths in college without a companies well being at stake. For the lucky few this gained knowledge often lends itself in an interview then translating into that great job.

[AwesomeAlvin]

Every member of the team with a girlfriend????

[coastertrav]

Originally posted by AwesomeAlvin:
Every member of the team with a girlfriend????

Not happening.

[kapps]

Originally posted by Mike Cook:
I have yet to find anything I really enjoy as much as FSAE....

Getting off work after putting in a 10.5 hour day today, I had to stop and think how similar it was to SAE. Crazy, hectic, things needing to be done yesterday with no budget to do them...just like SAE. Just with a bit more company bs to go through (oh, thats similar too except it used to come from the school). Although pays a LOT better http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[xxsportscar]

As far as I know, Oakland University Holds the bigest 1 year position jump, 123rd in 2002 to 13th in 2003, 110 position jump. Can anyone top that?

[Ben Bode]

Simon Dingle,

You asked about a 4cyl team getting first in fuel economy... we took first in fuel econ in Virginia last spring (09) running a F4i. Lets just say that there were a few last minute tuning issues that resulted in us running a little on the lean side. If I remember right we only used .75 gal. I think we still took 3rd in endurance though.

[bob.paasch]

Originally posted by Ben Bode:
You asked about a 4cyl team getting first in fuel economy... we took first in fuel econ in Virginia last spring (09) running a F4i. Lets just say that there were a few last minute tuning issues that resulted in us running a little on the lean side. If I remember right we only used .75 gal. I think we still took 3rd in endurance though.

Did any single cylinder teams finish endurance at VIR09? Looks like the finishers were all fours and Oklahoma's ape...

[D Collins Jr]

Bob,

UM Dearborn finished at VIR. I don't remember if they were a single or not, but I thought they were shooting to do very well at Fuel. Regardless of that, .75 gallons is a very impressive number. I know we were pretty shocked to get beat by it.

[Simon Dingle]

@Ben Bode

Sounds like a you follow our powertrain team's moto too - "If in doubt, lean it out" :P


@ xxsportscar

Don't know if it's the largest, but post-FSG '08 to post-FSG '09 we jumped 145 places (183rd to 38th). But then we compete in two competitions a year.

[JamesWolak]

Originally posted by D Collins Jr:
Bob,

UM Dearborn finished at VIR. I don't remember if they were a single or not, but I thought they were shooting to do very well at Fuel. Regardless of that, .75 gallons is a very impressive number. I know we were pretty shocked to get beat by it.

Dearborn's motor was a twin.

[jsmooz]

VIR09 - Yes Michigan - Dearborn was a twin and finished endurance.

back to p1......"talked to a team in Michigan in 2007 that claimed that their budget was so small, their goal every year was to win cost report. Interesting goal..." that was us (Michigan - Dearborn), and yes that was one of our goals. We think a lot about manufacturability during our design process, which helps the cost score. Proving that is the fact that we won cost @ VIR09 with a car that was the cheapest @ MIS09 and placed as high as 9th overall (MIS09). If we ever figured out how to communicate our design effectively we would be a force to recon with.

[2BWise]

Originally posted by Ben Bode:
Simon Dingle,

You asked about a 4cyl team getting first in fuel economy... we took first in fuel econ in Virginia last spring (09) running a F4i. Lets just say that there were a few last minute tuning issues that resulted in us running a little on the lean side. If I remember right we only used .75 gal. I think we still took 3rd in endurance though.

Two years in a row then for 4 cyl at VIR. Cincy won fuel economy in '08. It was a bit of a fluke though. The 12V supply wire to the shifter wore through leaving us in 1st. Apparently at partial throttle our map was pretty lean.

[RenM]

Originally posted by 2BWise:
The 12V supply wire to the shifter wore through leaving us in 1st. Apparently at partial throttle our map was pretty lean.
I guess its rather because you were not able to accelerate to as high speeds as you could have if your gear shift had worked. So you needed less energy and thus less fuel.

[John_Burford]

The true holy grail of Formula SAE is to win three years in a row. In nearly three decades UTA and Cornell have come close but no one has succeeded yet.

As for notable achievements, I would also suggest largest margin of victory. Can anyone bet 100 points?

[Bemo]

We had a margin of more than 100 points at FSUK '08, FSAE Italy '08, FSAE-A '08, FSG '09.

Not sure about Italy '08 but the rest definitely. I think the highest margin was in Australia 155 points or something like that.

[BryanH]

For me the holy grail would be if Cornell designed an RMIT clone...but wait what's that you say?...a photo?

[Bemo]

Bringing this old threat up.

I got an unconventional one. What was the lowest score a team won an event with.
We won FS UK with only 791.5 points. Did a team ever manage to get less points and still be overall winner?

[Luniz]

Well, is there any one who came 12th with as little as 524? That would be us then ;-)

[AxelRipper]

Also curious how little fuel has been used in endurance. IIRC, MIS 2010 we placed 3rd in fuel economy with .66 gallons, through a carbed single with an inline fuel injector.

[Simon Dingle]

Can beat that in a 250kg 4 cylinder! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

2.14L, 0.565 US Gal.

That was FSUK 2009, and we came second before adjusting for E85 and 3rd after adjusting.

FS Total .com is good some of these stats.

[Simon Dingle]

Originally posted by Simon Dingle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> What about lowest fsufuel ever????? Almost certainly aberdeen at FSUK 09, they only used 1.692L!

I think everyone's fuel consumption was lower at FSUK due to the rain, we (Brunel) used 50% less fuel at FSUK compared to FSG the same year.

I seem to remember that Aberdeen were using a 300cc engine too, there's no doubt that that helps! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

haha, thought this conversation seemed familiar :P

[AxelRipper]

Originally posted by Simon Dingle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Simon Dingle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> What about lowest fsufuel ever????? Almost certainly aberdeen at FSUK 09, they only used 1.692L!

I think everyone's fuel consumption was lower at FSUK due to the rain, we (Brunel) used 50% less fuel at FSUK compared to FSG the same year.

I seem to remember that Aberdeen were using a 300cc engine too, there's no doubt that that helps! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

haha, thought this conversation seemed familiar :P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops. My bad... that equates to ~29 mpg US. Most fuel efficient pure combustion racecar ever? (not counting hyper mileage competition... thats not a race)

[Chris B]

hey guys,

i think another holy grail of FSAE is being paid to do it.

red

[Jon Oneill]

Originally posted by Simon Dingle:

@ xxsportscar

Don't know if it's the largest, but post-FSG '08 to post-FSG '09 we jumped 145 places (183rd to 38th). But then we compete in two competitions a year.

I think we currently hold the record for the biggest change to world ranking after the Australian event in 2010.

After AUS 2009 - 393 rd
After AUS 2010 - 191 st

A jump of 223 places. We'll be trying to make about the same improvement this year, so we should end up at -32 after the event.

[Chapo]

Originally posted by Chris B:
hey guys,

i think another holy grail of FSAE is being paid to do it.


Define being paid to do it....

[Chris B]

well some people get scholarships/cadetships etc where they secure a graduate position while still at uni and some of these positions even pay you to finish your degree. so if you've also managed to make FSAE part of your formal studies and not just extra curricular i.e thesis etc then you've managed to get yourself into a position where in a round about way you're getting paid for your efforts. hopefully that made sense.

chris

[Simon Dingle]

University of Surrey had one of their team members doing their 'Industrial Placement' year with the FSAE team a couple of years ago. But I don't know if they were paid to do this or not.

[MalcolmG]

Originally posted by JonJon:
I think we currently hold the record for the biggest change to world ranking after the Australian event in 2010.

After AUS 2009 - 393 rd
After AUS 2010 - 191 st

A jump of 223 places.
Just as well "basic arithmetic" isn't one of the judging criteria in FSAE http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Jon Oneill]

Originally posted by MalcolmG:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JonJon:
I think we currently hold the record for the biggest change to world ranking after the Australian event in 2010.

After AUS 2009 - 393 rd
After AUS 2010 - 191 st

A jump of 223 places.

Just as well "basic arithmetic" isn't one of the judging criteria in FSAE http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Turns out I'm an Engineer, not Claude....
I'll try to get it right when it counts.

[Chapo]

Originally posted by Chris B:
well some people get scholarships/cadetships etc where they secure a graduate position while still at uni and some of these positions even pay you to finish your degree. so if you've also managed to make FSAE part of your formal studies and not just extra curricular i.e thesis etc then you've managed to get yourself into a position where in a round about way you're getting paid for your efforts. hopefully that made sense.

chris

Well in that case I think the UNSW@ADFA team take the cake. All members of the team are paid to be at the university as all are defence members.

So anyone who does their thesis on the car (or a high acheivers project) is getting paid. Additionally if anyone is lucky enough to be the supervising officer at the competition they get payed extra for working away from their home town for the time.

[Chris B]

true. then there's also anyone who is in the undergrad program around the country as well. maybe its not as hard as i initially thought to get paid for FSAE, just that nobody at UQ really manages it lol.