open engine development project

[killer_siller]

I've found myself hosting a forum discussing the development of an open-source engine. I'd invite anyone here to come join the discussion!
http://www.orionengineeredmotorwerks.com/phpBB3/

[killer_siller]

I've found myself hosting a forum discussing the development of an open-source engine. I'd invite anyone here to come join the discussion!
http://www.orionengineeredmotorwerks.com/phpBB3/

[MalcolmG]

interesting idea, but what's the point of it? It kinda seems like a reasonably aimless, "because we can" (or think we can) development, rather than something aimed toward achieving a specific goal.

Also, since it's not an FSAE-legal engine, this probably doesn't belong in FSAE Discussion...

[killer_siller]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MalcolmG:
It kinda seems like a reasonably aimless, "because we can" (or think we can) development
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there a greater reason to do anything in life?

My primary goal is to learn, and as such apply that knowledge to other things.

I apologize if I misposted this. I would not mind at all if it was moved.

[MalcolmG]

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that was a bad reason, but any project without clear goals/objectives/deliverables is much harder to complete because you spend so much time floundering, and typically have no overall guiding principles to help steer the project when you reach an impasse

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by killer_siller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MalcolmG:
It kinda seems like a reasonably aimless, "because we can" (or think we can) development
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there a greater reason to do anything in life?

My primary goal is to learn, and as such apply that knowledge to other things.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Respectfully, I don't see how your project helps learning much. Myabe I don't understand it. but, if you don't actually build anything or test anything, what will you learn? My advice would be to modify an engine that exists and do so scientifically, this would greatly increase your learning. It's affordable to most people, even if you have to start really small.

[killer_siller]

There will be building and testing.

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I'd like to start with a 1.6L L4. I'd like it to be with an 81mm bore and 77mm stroke. This is what I'D like. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why limit yourself like that before doing any analysis whatsoever?

Fun for you maybe, but not really an academic exercise if you're going to decide fundamentals like that before you even start.

What series is it for? Or is it a totally arbitrary exercise.

Ben

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by killer_siller:
There will be building and testing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok well, maybe you can write more than 2 sentences and explain what the whole deal is about. In your link, I don't see an obvious place to learn that info. I looked at some threads and just see chatter about various topics including reasons why more people are not interested. Why am I not interested? Because I have no clue what your goals are or what the project is trying to accomplish.

[Mikey Antonakakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Charlie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by killer_siller:
There will be building and testing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok well, maybe you can write more than 2 sentences and explain what the whole deal is about. In your link, I don't see an obvious place to learn that info. I looked at some threads and just see chatter about various topics including reasons why more people are not interested. Why am I not interested? Because I have no clue what your goals are or what the project is trying to accomplish. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually a very good point...

[Mazur]

I'm confused as well.

[VFR750R]

You will find it hard to accomplish anything without a well defined goal.

I know you don't want to limit things because you want some novel super-engine to emerge from everyones ideas but without a direction, it will never go any further then ideas.

The most open forum that is still goal oriented is land speed records. They have classes for everything from MG's to gas-turbine cars. Look at current records and do some research to find a class that you find weak, with a good chance to better the record on a budget. There's probably a 2L open class where the only rule is 2.0L engine. Then you can design yourself a 2.0L V10 based on R6 parts or something.

[killer_siller]

I apologize that I haven't kept up with this.

VFR750R has provided the first constructive criticism I've recieved from you guys. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate any criticism, but understand that we're developing from the floor; goals are part of that development process. Criticizing a project for, in the first year of its infancy, not having a goal is like criticizing a twelve year old for not knowing calculus. Things take time. Goals take discussion.

Which is why I appreciate VFR750R. He's provided criticism, and something none of you have yet: a solution.

Please, don't write this off just yet. I'm certain each and every one of you has something that would be contributory to the effort. Your contribution might just be the one that makes it work!

[Zac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Don't get me wrong, I appreciate any criticism, but understand that we're developing from the floor; goals are part of that development process. Criticizing a project for, in the first year of its infancy, not having a goal is like criticizing a twelve year old for not knowing calculus. Things take time. Goals take discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't have a clear and well defined goal you really don't have a project, you have a bunch of activity.

[Adambomb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Don't get me wrong, I appreciate any criticism, but understand that we're developing from the floor; goals are part of that development process. Criticizing a project for, in the first year of its infancy, not having a goal is like criticizing a twelve year old for not knowing calculus. Things take time. Goals take discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't have a clear and well defined goal you really don't have a project, you have a bunch of activity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

A project should be a solution to a problem if there are any advancements to be made. "Because we can" isn't a problem. Designing an engine from the ground up is incredibly demanding. Just building one for kicks would be an incredible waste of effort; in other words, if you are one of the very few people that can pull it off, why waste the energy on "random motion?"

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by killer_siller:
I apologize that I haven't kept up with this.

VFR750R has provided the first constructive criticism I've recieved from you guys. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate any criticism, but understand that we're developing from the floor; goals are part of that development process. Criticizing a project for, in the first year of its infancy, not having a goal is like criticizing a twelve year old for not knowing calculus. Things take time. Goals take discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A goal defines a project. If you don't have a goal, you don't have a project. Your analogy doesn't fit. If you have no goals, then there's just random discussion, which speaking of constructive, usually isn't.

If you were at a company do you think you could have a project for a year without goals? Not a chance. Not even for a week.

Hey, it might turn out to be something good, but I see only smoke at the moment. I was trying to be constructive; your post was meaningless and I was trying to help by identifying what might make it worth someone's time.

[killer_siller]

It's obvious I'm not in a place to lead this project right now, though I'd still like to see it succeed. Please, if anyone would be interested in managing such a project, email me:

jeff@orionengineeredmotorwerks.com

[Adambomb]

Not to be a downer again, but I don't think the open source principle would work well with an engine anyway. Yes, there is a lot that goes into the design, but even if there were a complete set of engine design tools available, very few people could successfully manufacture it, and the cost would be very high. For an example check out the custom Mahle engine Kettering used in 2007. It ran, but was really nowhere near practical, reliable, or competitive, and consumed all of the teams resources just to get the engine to that level, at the expense of the rest of the car (I think they said they put like the entire rest of the car together in like 10 days?!?).

Not only that, but for an open source project to work well, you need a community of contributors willing to more or less work for free for the benefit of a large number of people. And even then it usually takes a while to get things sorted out. When it comes to engine design, I just don't imagine there are enough people with the variety of expertise necessary willing to "work for free," and even then there's not a large enough number of people to serve as "guinnea pigs" to get development worked out.

I can see this being sort of a "next step" from the Megasquirt concept, but until you can start producing race-quality machined engine components (esp. things like the block and crank; I could imagine using pistons, rods, even heads from other applications) as cheaply as you can electronics, I personally don't see it coming anywhere close to working out.