What ECU's to use and why?

[damienkennedy]

Hi all,

Coming from Dublin Institute of Technology in Ireland. We entered in class 2 last year for the first time and done reasonably well. We stuck with the stock ecu (gsxr 600 k3) and had problems trying to tap into it, (Suzuki wouldnt release the key's).

This year we are aiming for Class 1 and are going to go with an aftermarket ecu.

What recommendations does anyone have?

So far I have come across Motec (m4 to m800), Autronic, Nira and Performance Electronics.

Has anyone recommendations on these - Good/bad points - Levels of adjustment - Extra features , etc.

Also are there any other manufacturers I am overlooking.

Any info is much appreciated and look forward to meeting/challenging some of you in July!!

Thanks
Damien

[EHog]

Pectel SQ6

[damienkennedy]

any particular reasons? good/bad points

Thanks

[Miley]

My team is also looking for an ECU right now. Last years team used Platinum Sport 1000 from Haltech. We are having issues with the engine right now and may stay away from it this year. Are you building an N/A or FI engine?

[Numchuks]

Check out DTAfast (www. dtafast. co. uk)

These forums already contain plenty of information on available ECU's. It's one thing to ask for input in regards to ECU selection, but its another to search for and discover the input already posted on the topic http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[damienkennedy]

At the minute we are running non-turbo but just because the alley hasn't been explored. It may be something to consider for us yet.

Just from looking on the forums Haltech seem to be troublesome so I was veering away from them. Motec m4 or m400 is looking like one of the high contendors at this stage

[RenM]

we are using the Motec M400 and M800 since years and are very pleased with it. It is very user friendly and it just works without errors. The only drawback is the high price.

[damienkennedy]

@Renm

Is there any advantage of the m800 over the m400 apart from running more cylinders and the higher data logging capacity?

I don't think you can run telemetry of the m400 as far as I can see.

Would you recommend going for the '100 series' as opose to the m4?

Cheers
Damien

[Mumpitz]

Motec M4 with no wideband or datalogging options is weak sauce. Staring at a little dos screen that wont go full screen in Win 7 is annoying as well.

[bob.paasch]

We run the Motec M400. As RenM says, only drawback is the price, it is an excellent unit that will do all that you need. We run telemetry with it.

[damienkennedy]

Just looking at the spec sheet it says Telemetry is non compatible with the m400. . . ?

Has anyone used Nira ? Company in sweeden. . . in particular the nira i3+

Thanks for comments guys

[bob.paasch]

Originally posted by damienkennedy:
Just looking at the spec sheet it says Telemetry is non compatible with the m400. . . ?


We run a standard wireless router with it.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Originally posted by Mumpitz:
Motec M4 with no wideband or datalogging options is weak sauce. Staring at a little dos screen that wont go full screen in Win 7 is annoying as well.

Go into the fuel or ignition map and type "g" (graph). I don't have Windows 7 (still using XP on my laptop), but that will make it go full screen for me.

I don't really understand the fascination with a fancy GUI for ECU software. As long as ecu software is intuitive to quickly move around in the software while tuning, then I don't particularly care what it looks like. The key with the Motec stuff is learning (and being comfortable with) the quick keys to jump from place to place. All of the shortcuts carried over into the MX00 software, so if you're good with the older stuff, it's no different working in either version.

-Kirk

[Mumpitz]

Yeah works in XP but not 7 I suppose I could switch to XP mode though...

[roepke44]

We run an M400 becasue of it's software, trigger wheel options, and the ability to send all the data over the CAN to the logger without many problems. One other system that i was looking at was the Racepak. they mainly do data acq stuff, but iread a few years ago, they worked with some FSAE team and had an ECU that communicated with the DAQ. Maybe they might be able to work with you.

[coastertrav]

I don't know what you read about the Haltech equipment, but we've used a Platinum Sport 1000 and will be using it again this year. I've worked directly with Megasquirt, Performance Electronics, Motec, and Haltech, and I must say that 99% of the problems you will ever read about are user related. That being said, Haltech has great customer support and has bent over backwards to help us, from getting us extra parts when we've screwed up our settings and fried some coil drivers, allowing us to purchase products that are not usually for sale (like just the relay/fuse portion of a harness), being able to call whenever and talk for hours about any issue we have, and even letting us stop in their shop on the way to Michigan to help with last minute diagnostics.

[wagemd]

We have run the M4 for years and it has served us very well. It has lots of options, but is becoming very out dated (logging space, interface, it has options, but is not very configurable if you follow that distinction).

We will be using either the M400 or the EngineLab ECU. M400 has the best features of the M4, but adds USB, integrated shift control, Windows GUI (which is supported by MoTec, they no longer update the M4 interface), and several teams, like GFR, have run telemetry off it.

@Kirk It has more to do with continued system support, Windows 7 for instance. "g" works in XP, the problem is different in 7. Its not MoTec's fault there, Windows 7 does not support full screen 16 bit dos. Its nice to have hotkeys, but its also annoying to ONLY have hotkeys for some functions.

[Crispy]

To get telemetry with the M400 we use the Motec ACL as well. It has an ethernet connection that goes to the WiFi. I don't think it can be done with the M400 alone. If you are serious about data-logging, the ACL (or ADL) and a VIM are nice additions. Again, the only drawback is the price...

[sbrenaman]

Originally posted by wagemd:
EngineLab ECU.

I'd be interested to know if there are any other teams out there other than Wayne State that had been running this ECU.

[wagemd]

Originally posted by sbrenaman:

I'd be interested to know if there are any other teams out there other than Wayne State that had been running this ECU.

No one else that I know of yet... I have one in our shop and I want to mess with it on our dyno soon. Ill post more once I had a chance to see what it can do. It certainly has lots of potential, but is not the best 1st ecu. Its essentially a black box, so control strategy has to be programed from scratch (though I think they have some starter templates)

[Macros]

We have been using a Autronic SM4 since 2005. Next year we are moving towards the Link G4 Storm. They're cheaper, are newer, and have slightly more features. Also tuning singles on an SM4 is difficult by the way it measures crank speed. They're fine for inline fours though.

[EHog]

Im standing by the Pectel SQ6, however I have no logical reasons to present.

Its amazing (In the sense that we have logged nearly 40 channels of data simultaneous to engine control in one standalone unit). Except that it costs 6K.

[Mikey Antonakakis]

Megasquirt is what we've used the last couple years. Cheap, lots of features, works well. But a lot more of a DIY system.

[TMichaels]

These forums already contain plenty of information on available ECU's. It's one thing to ask for input in regards to ECU selection, but its another to search for and discover the input already posted on the topic http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Precisely! Just make it a data driven decision and ask about things which are not covered by data sheets like user support etc. Some of the answers you got already contained this.

We used a Motec while I was an active team member. The support was always helpful, competent and answered fast. They also gave us information which was not contained in any manual, for example to trigger some specific functions by CAN. As said before, the price may be a drawback, but otherwise it is a fire and forget solution as the M400 and upwards is compatible with the stock crankshaft sensor setup of the GSX-R600 and you only have to move a small bolt at the camshaft by 90 degrees to also use the stock camshaft sensor.
Some (not all) of the other available ECUs require you to change your crankshaft sensor setup (usually its the trigger wheel) which is at least annoying, but may also lead to errors which are very hard to track. Furthermore the crankshaft sensor is the most critical part with respect to the reliability of your engine, despite oil pressure http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

BTW: In my opinion telemetry is overrated, especially when you are just starting. But however, every ECU which is able to send current data via CAN, Ethernet or other interfaces can be used as input for a telemetry link. So don't worry about possible telemetry functions.

Regards,

Tobias

[murpia]

Originally posted by EHog:
Im standing by the Pectel SQ6, however I have no logical reasons to present.

Its amazing (In the sense that we have logged nearly 40 channels of data simultaneous to engine control in one standalone unit). Except that it costs 6K.
I assume that's 6K in US dollars? Sounds a lot, what spec was your SQ6?

I have heard of prices down to £1800 for SQ6, was a year or two ago.

How does that compare to MoTeC prices?

Regards, Ian

[wweissin]

I wanted to stay out of this but I would like to clear up the information about the Pectel SQ6 and better describe how powerful an ECU it is.

The SQ6 retails for just under $4000. What sets it apart is the shear number of available I/Os. It can run 12 injectors. Has 8 ignition outputs with built in ignitors. 8 analog in, 10 digital in, 2 knock inputs, 2 thermocouple inputs, 6 dedicated PWM outputs and 3 H-bridges.

This may already sound like a lot of I/Os but bear in mind that all digital inputs can be configured to 10bit analog input and all unused ignition and injector outputs can be configured as 8bit analog inputs OR user selectable PWM outputs. Ethernet connectivity means quick downloads of the standard 1mb of logging.

And as far as customer support goes. We check this forum daily, we have a support forum for all of our customers and we are always available by phone.

[EHog]

Originally posted by wweissin:
I wanted to stay out of this but I would like to clear up the information about the Pectel SQ6 and better describe how powerful an ECU it is.

The SQ6 retails for just under $4000. What sets it apart is the shear number of available I/Os. It can run 12 injectors. Has 8 ignition outputs with built in ignitors. 8 analog in, 10 digital in, 2 knock inputs, 2 thermocouple inputs, 6 dedicated PWM outputs and 3 H-bridges.

This may already sound like a lot of I/Os but bear in mind that all digital inputs can be configured to 10bit analog input and all unused ignition and injector outputs can be configured as 8bit analog inputs OR user selectable PWM outputs. Ethernet connectivity means quick downloads of the standard 1mb of logging.

And as far as customer support goes. We check this forum daily, we have a support forum for all of our customers and we are always available by phone.

Indeed, we have had excellent customer support for our unit. We have even gotten a loaner unit on one occasoin. Also, its possible ours was closer to 5K after we got the memory upgrade. I believe I said 6K earlier.

Also, we take advantage of all the extra ingnition and injector outputs for data logging. Overall, a very flexible ECU/data logging unit. Well worth the cost.

[Macros]

Originally posted by wweissin:
The SQ6 retails for just under $4000. What sets it apart is the shear number of available I/Os. It can run 12 injectors. Has 8 ignition outputs with built in ignitors. 8 analog in, 10 digital in, 2 knock inputs, 2 thermocouple inputs, 6 dedicated PWM outputs and 3 H-bridges.


Sounds overkill for a single or even an inline four. Surely a cheaper less output rich ecu would be more suitable for an fsae application. Could you lose points in Design for that?

[Ockham]

The EngineLab's worth exploring, but it's not really in a marketable state yet. The developer, Jim Vito, is still picking and choosing which teams get the hardware until it's ready for sale. So far, it's us, and Washington State working with them.

The EngineLab's biggest upside is nigh-infinite flexibility. The software is a completely blank slate when it arrives, so if you want something as basic as a rev limiter, you have to code it yourself. Very, very useful, though definitely a double-edged sword. Once the system is working, it's robust, but as the first team to use the computer, we had some serious teething problems. Suffice it to say that there are bugs left lurking.

The GUI is also a blank slate. It's up to you to add tables, readouts, gauges, sliders, indicators, and anything else you want. All Windows 7-compatible and very sharp. Behavior models can also be tested on the bench, since the Host Console includes a logical version of the engine computer. That lets you stress-test your code before loading it into the computer.

DAQ is complete, integrated, and a one-click operation. You can select which channels to log, and they're all recorded to a USB key plugged into the computer. The Host Console can review the outputs later. Not sure about wireless capability, but with the USB ports and a CAN bus, I imagine it's possible.

The bottom line is, if I were spending my own money, I wouldn't buy EngineLab yet. Once the stability's a little better, I wouldn't settle for anything less. No word on public availability yet, but I'm sure Jim will be on these forums as soon as that day arrives.

Make sure you check out MicroSquirt if you don't need extensive DAQ. It's probably the simplest, lightest option out there. Not exactly high-tech, but no slouch either.

[Mbirt]

Who's excited for Megasquirt 3? I am. One team even told me they're "upgrading" from the M4 to it. We'll be upgrading from MS2, which is currently 'squirting our crf450x.

Built-in launch control, datalogging to SD card, integrated usb connection, lots more I/O and less than $300 to upgrade an old MS1/2 setup to these capabilities. The provisions for a cam position sensor should make starting our single a much less painful experience also.

Also, the latest tuning software, TunerStudio MS, is java-based and runs on pc, mac, linux, etc.

[wagemd]

Originally posted by Ockham:
The EngineLab's worth exploring, but it's not really in a marketable state yet. The developer, Jim Vito, is still picking and choosing which teams get the hardware until it's ready for sale. So far, it's us, and Washington State working with them.


Washington State? University of Washington that is... Very different... Unless they actually are too, then there's 3.

[murpia]

I'm still interested in a cost comparison between MoTeC and Pectel...

The SQ6 that I have used (not FSAE) had all the gearshift & traction control in it as well as the engine control. The gearshift control worked very well, the traction control I was not so happy with. Plus, there were enough auxiliary outputs to configure an active diff, should you want to.

Regards, Ian

[Ockham]

Washington State? University of Washington that is... Very different... Unless they actually are too, then there's 3.
My bad. University of Washington is correct.

How are you guys getting on with the computer?

[Jan_Dressler]

Originally posted by damienkennedy:
Also are there any other manufacturers I am overlooking.

OBR (Ole Buhl Racing (UK) Ltd) sells the EFI Technology Euro 4 ECU.
Can do almost everything, costs way less than a MoTec or Bosch. Quite good customer support, too.

[Hub]

We are using skynam ECU because we have a good support and it's easy to find in France.
We don't have a lot of functions, but it's enough for us. The ecu is cheap and come with a lot of extra parts.
h t t p : //www.skynam.com/EN/voir_produit.php?id=28&remiseprix=849&remiseprixc=0&prixpub=849&prixpubc=0&prixdcat=1

[wagemd]

Originally posted by Ockham:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Washington State? University of Washington that is... Very different... Unless they actually are too, then there's 3.
My bad. University of Washington is correct.

How are you guys getting on with the computer? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haven't had as much time to work with it as I would like. My duties on our team changed a bit over the summer http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I did mess with the software fairly extensively and it seems pretty well done. If it does (and reliably) everything its supposed to, it will work out very well for us.

[Fulcrum]

We ran our engine on the M400 . Its pretty easy to setup . Our engine started in the first go ... They have a very good support network ,with webinars etc .We decided which ECU to use on the basis of the inputs / outputs a ECU has , price , support , ease of use , future upgrades etc .

[Marshall.Hagen]

I selected the DTA S80 Pro for the three years I was at WWU.

Sequential injection, built in crank/cam sensor selection for Honda CBR, on board datalogging, CAN (worked well with our AIM EVO3), traction control (up to 4 wheel speed sensor), launch control, full target lambda map, weather proof, shock resistant, fairly good documentation, and best of all with FSAE discount it was less than $1500 including all the plugs/cables.

Software was stable, GUI was intuitive, hardware was bulletproof.

Only downside was the proprietary cable connector and the inability to add more RPM resolution (fixed number of RPM columns).

[damienkennedy]

thanks for all the replies people. . . we went fot the Motec M400 in the end and the analysis pro package. Should be arriving next week so we can pplay with it!

[TPlet]

We use the OBR Euro 4 ECU since the 2010 season.
It works really well for us and it has a reasonable price (approx. 1500€)
the draw back is the not so user friendly software and the sketchy documentation.

[RANeff]

Has DTAFast improved the use-ability of their software since the P8 pro? I never tuned with it, but I messed around with the software last year and it was not very user-friendly. DTAFast's are powerful, but I wouldnt go with it if they havent enhanced its interface.

Id love to run a Motec too, alas Ill stick with our little MS2 unit that I modded for sequential ignition/injection. Honestly, its only downfall is the lack of datalogging and CAN connectivity, especially for the price