Having trouble getting f4i started with PE-ECU...

[blur95]

I've been working with this for a while, and haven't really been getting anywhere. After spending quite a while (days/weeks) cranking, and just barely getting it running once, I'm running out of ideas.

It ran last year in the old chassis, but it died on a testing day, and hasn't been running since.

We have:
2001 F4i engine, history barely known, but it did run in the 2008 competition.
PE-ECU that was used in same competition
140cc/min Bosch Injectors

The crank trigger reads correctly, and is oriented correctly.
We are getting about 45psi fuel pressure.
Coils/injectors fire correctly through the diagnostics page.

I'm sure I'm leaving some details out, it's late, and I am tired.

I've tried many different maps, different fuel/spark timing, and no matter what I do, unless it is really extreme, it doesn't seem to affect how it runs. It only seems to fire one, maybe two cylinders in a row. It does this until I go too far with the fuel and it floods.

If I at least got some firing, I could diagnose further, but at this point, I'm starting to run out of skills/knowledge.

at this point, I've got two main leads I'm thinking about pursuing, but I really don't want either to be the case.

First, maybe there is an internal engine problem, requiring a teardown/replacement. I haven't yet been able to get ahold of a compression tester, which would tell me a lot about that.

Second, I have got a couple error codes from the ecu. At first I just dismissed them as a communications problem, but now I am thinking that it may be a problem with the ECU which would require replacement.

So, any ideas where I should look next? Maybe something I have overlooked? Competition is getting too close for me to have a project this important come to a screeching halt.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions you might be able to give me, and please ask if there is anything missing, or great resources I might have missed.

Ian

[blur95]

I've been working with this for a while, and haven't really been getting anywhere. After spending quite a while (days/weeks) cranking, and just barely getting it running once, I'm running out of ideas.

It ran last year in the old chassis, but it died on a testing day, and hasn't been running since.

We have:
2001 F4i engine, history barely known, but it did run in the 2008 competition.
PE-ECU that was used in same competition
140cc/min Bosch Injectors

The crank trigger reads correctly, and is oriented correctly.
We are getting about 45psi fuel pressure.
Coils/injectors fire correctly through the diagnostics page.

I'm sure I'm leaving some details out, it's late, and I am tired.

I've tried many different maps, different fuel/spark timing, and no matter what I do, unless it is really extreme, it doesn't seem to affect how it runs. It only seems to fire one, maybe two cylinders in a row. It does this until I go too far with the fuel and it floods.

If I at least got some firing, I could diagnose further, but at this point, I'm starting to run out of skills/knowledge.

at this point, I've got two main leads I'm thinking about pursuing, but I really don't want either to be the case.

First, maybe there is an internal engine problem, requiring a teardown/replacement. I haven't yet been able to get ahold of a compression tester, which would tell me a lot about that.

Second, I have got a couple error codes from the ecu. At first I just dismissed them as a communications problem, but now I am thinking that it may be a problem with the ECU which would require replacement.

So, any ideas where I should look next? Maybe something I have overlooked? Competition is getting too close for me to have a project this important come to a screeching halt.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions you might be able to give me, and please ask if there is anything missing, or great resources I might have missed.

Ian

[Gaanja]

what errors are you getting on the ECU?

[BuckeyeEngines]

I am hoping you have a spare ecu to try. If not talk to brian at performance electronics about your error codes. I would also be ruling out internal engine problems. A compression test would be a good start. I all of my experiences with having issues getting an F4i with a PE to run it has been an electrical issue, either wiring or ecu settings. I am in the midst of getting our race engine running on the dyno which is scary since it has over 12 k dollars in parts in it. If you want to email your pe map I can take a look at it. It would be my guess that the wiring fairys have messed something up.

[Ockham]

When you tested the injectors, were you able to see the fuel plume? It's possible that they're actuating, but are blocked thanks to some bad or poorly-filtered fuel. There might be gunk plugging the outlet holes.

What exactly happened on that test day when the engine died?

You may be up against the PE's only Achilles heel; they're designed for absolute simplicity, not mil-spec durability, and generally only keep working for a year or so after purchase/refurbishing. I don't think there's a single team using them that hasn't sent one back to Brian at some point. Like Buckeye said, if it's the ECU, Brian should be able to tell you where to turn.

[coastertrav]

I whacked our PE with a hammer earlier this year so no future teams would find it and try to use it. Had nothing but issues with it over the past two years. This year I upgraded us to a Haltech Platinum Sport 1000, and the experience has been nothing short of delightful.

[Adambomb]

Hmm...our PE has been solid. As in the last one we used (in our '07 car) hasn't had any problems, despite the fact that it has been drug around the track and across our bumpy parking lot several times (one of the mounting tabs is even ground off). It has about 70 hours on it now. We've blown up a couple before, but that is all due to people doing things like directly connecting low impedance coils, etc. Really the only reason we switched to a Motec was we needed more flexibility to get our single going.

In my experience these problems are seldom related to any part that costs more than $10. The immediate amateur reaction is to blame the most expensive part (ECU, internals of engine), but that is very rarely the root cause. Especially if it didn't blow up the last time it was driven.

First thing I would suspect is a vacuum leak. FSAE engines generally produce barely enough vacuum to run in the first place, so if they have a vacuum leak they may be very difficult/impossible to start normally. Try spraying a bunch of starting fluid in the intake while cranking. If it takes off, there's probably a vacuum leak. To find it, spray starting fluid around all the connections while cranking (or better running, if you can keep it going after starting it with starting fluid), and if it picks up, you've found your leak.

If it sat for a couple years, I'd be suspicious of injectors. They can tend to gum up if they sit a long time, as the fuel turns to varnish. I'd pull the injectors and spray them into a bucket or something to see what the spray pattern looks like. If they're not totally plugged, you should be able to flush them, I remember they sell some 3M stuff you hook directly to your fuel rail that blasts them clean. The shop I used to work at pitched that as something needed for "routine maintenance," although gas has enough detergent in it that as long as your car doesn't sit forever (especially without a fuel stabilizer like Sta-Bil) it's unnecessary.

If you can't get your hands on a compression tester, a "redneck compression test" should suffice to tell you whether or not the engine has a major problem. It's very simple: just listen closely to the engine as it cranks over. Disconnect the fuel and ignition to eliminate effects of possible bad timing, etc. Naturally, if all cylinders have decent and similar compression, cranking should go "zha-zha-zha-zha" with a very regular pattern. If it goes "zha-zha-JIGGA-zha-zha-JIGGA" you've got dead cylinders. Basically the dead cylinder(s) will crank faster than the others. One thing this won't address is improper cam timing (if, say, the chain jumped a tooth or something). Also bear in mind that it is common for FSAE motors to get bent starter shafts if you spin the car without getting on the clutch fast enough (or at all). This will cause the starter to "hang" at one point in its rotation. And finally, make sure you've got it hooked up to a solid full-size battery to eliminate voltage drop effects, and that all connections are solid (connection can be bad even if it "looks" good).

Beyond that, quadruple check every wiring connection at the ECU, make sure there aren't coil/injector wires hooked to the wrong cylinder (has happened to us in the past). Just remember your IC engine fundamentals: Air, fuel, spark, compression, and you should be good to go.

[sbrenaman]

Injectors are brand new from about a month ago. I doubt they're bad. I believe they were even flow tested before we picked them up.

[blur95]

Gaanja - I didn't write down the error codes I got on the ECU, which I wish I had done now. I will next time they pop up, and post here as well as contacting PE about it.

Buckeye - We don't have a spare ECU to try, not sure what to do there. I'm trying to get a properly sized compression tester, but under cranking without fuel and spark, it sounds very uniform. I have checked the wiring several times, and all appears good. All sensors read properly, and coils and injectors fire where they should under the diagnostics section. I don't really have a map that does anything better than the default that the program generated.

Ockham - The injectors are brand new, all tested by a local fuel injector guy. all four were very close for fuel delivery, around 35cc as indicated on his rig, which equates to 140cc/min at 45 PSI. I'm not sure what happened on the testing day, I wasn't there, but from what I've been told, the engine was fine at a test day, then when it was next tried, it just wouldn't run.

Adam - I'll check more closely for a vacuum leak, and get a bigger battery behind it. Also, I will go over the wiring once more, paying particular attention to where each coil goes.

Thanks all,

Ian

[Wesley]

First things first. Got spark? Got gas?

Directly check both. Don't rely on hearing it.

Sounds like you have your coil banks switched.

[coastertrav]

Also, quadruple check your firing order. The f4i is different than most automotive I4s.

[blur95]

Pulled plugs, fired coils, got spark.

Have about 45psi fuel pressure, injectors are firing, haven't yet checked the spray pattern in the manifold yet, but they were checked a couple weeks ago when they came out of the package brand new.

Coil banks switched, maybe, I'll check again, but I'm 99% sure they are right.

Since we are running wasted spark, would it matter if the firing order was different? IIRC, the f4i has 1243 firing order, which still requires the inner and outer plugs to be on different circuits.

Ian

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Are the plugs wet after you try to start?

Other things we have seen over the years...

-Plugged exhaust (as in almost completely restricted) in an attempt to pass sound levels
-Bad gas
-Fuel system with good pressure, but not actually flowing anything (check return line and are the plugs wet?)
-Large vacuum leaks
-Fouled plugs - if the engine does not start and run, pull the plugs and torch to clean. Heat is the best way to clean plugs fouled by raw gasoline.
-TPS not calibrated and actually engaged in "Flood Clear" situation.
-Deccel compensation improperly tuned and turning off the fuel.

If all else fails give me a call this weekend. My cell phone is 513-300-6768.

Good Luck.

[poe21]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B Lewis @ PE Engine Management:
Are the plugs wet after you try to start?
-Fuel system with good pressure, but not actually flowing anything (check return line and are the plugs wet?)
-Large vacuum leaks
-Fouled plugs - if the engine does not start and run, pull the plugs and torch to clean. Heat is the best way to clean plugs fouled by raw gasoline.
-TPS not calibrated and actually engaged in "Flood Clear" situation.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have experienced all these things with the PE, start here, and don't assume that just because you have fuel pressure that you are spraying at your injectors. Just recently dealt with the "flood clear" mode. Just got a new tps and it didn't read 100% all the time. Cranked right over. The ECU is 3 years old with no problems.

[Mikey Antonakakis]

Fouled plugs will wreak havoc on first starts. Clean or replace them, check them regularly to see if they're still giving you a strong spark.

[blur95]

I got it running a little bit tonight. Cleaned the plugs really well, and it ran for a while. I think I got a little over excited, though, and went too rich, and fouled the plugs again. I really wish our chassis designer had thought about changing the plugs when designing the car.

Now the real tuning can begin.

Thanks all for your help,

Ian

[Mikey Antonakakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blur95: I think I got a little over excited, though, and went too rich, and fouled the plugs again. I really wish our chassis designer had thought about changing the plugs when designing the car.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Haha lesson learned. We made a little access window in our firewall last year because of it, but I'd triple check the rules before doing something like that.

Harbor Freight sells a spark plug cleaning tool for about $10. It's basically a mini sand blaster, works really well and is a lot easier than hand cleaning. Just make sure there isn't any sand in the plug...

[poe21]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mikey Antonakakis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blur95: I think I got a little over excited, though, and went too rich, and fouled the plugs again. I really wish our chassis designer had thought about changing the plugs when designing the car.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Haha lesson learned. We made a little access window in our firewall last year because of it, but I'd triple check the rules before doing something like that.

Harbor Freight sells a spark plug cleaning tool for about $10. It's basically a mini sand blaster, works really well and is a lot easier than hand cleaning. Just make sure there isn't any sand in the plug... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be careful if you are running the iridium spark plugs, since those cleaners tend to brake the tips off. We generally just burn ours off with a torch and maybe hit them a little with a wire brush.

We were in the same boat in 2008, as the seat back bar was about 3 inches above the spark plug holes. We had to bend the boots to get them in and out of the holes (which I'm sure is really good for them), and I have never seen a car foul so many plugs in my life. It also took a crazy configuration of u-joints and extensions to remove the plug itself. Haven't made that mistake again.

[Adambomb]

+1, we did that in '04...never again!

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Ian - Glad to hear you got it running. What ended up being the problem, just the fouled plugs?

[blur95]

I seems like maybe just the fouled plugs, but I do have an issue with the ECU plug. I'll call you sometime this week about that.

[BuckeyeEngines]

Everyone should do their self a favor and take a look at this http://www.globaldenso.com/en/...ge/select/index.html (http://www.globaldenso.com/en/products/aftermarket/plug/basic_knowledge/select/index.html) ..

basically for Denso spark plugs which we have found to be the best, not that I am bias or anything being that I work for Denso, but The lower number plugs will burn hotter and assist in not fouling, this is especially helpful for running your engine before it is fully tuned in. I like to use IU01-27 for roughing in the fuel and then I go to IU01-31 once fuel tuning is pretty close. The reason we are using 31 is 14.5:1 compression. So if you are running stock compression you would probably start out with IU01-24 and move to 27 when you are better tuned. These are iridium racing plug part numbers and are about 30 bucks a peice but due to piston clearance we used them with our custom pistons. The IUH series in the same heat is half the price and will work just as well.

I also though that everyone replaces their plugs and tears apart the engine and cleans/ inspects everything before running it. I bought an engine from a reputable salvage place and the crank was bent, so it happens. It is even easier to take apart than a 350 chevy so their isnt alot of reason not to.

Like someone else said hitting them with a torch and then putting them back in the head can work, it works great on getting two strokes to start as well.

[blur95]

Ok, so now it is just getting weird. It seems to only be running on two cylinders. I checked the wiring, reversing the injector plugs, and it runs the same. I switched the injectors, and it runs the same. All four coils have been tested, and seem to spark fine.

Cylinders 1 and 2 are firing, 3 and 4 are not. could this be because of the intake? The intake comes in from the right side, near #4, is it an air flow problem? it seems wierd, but at this point, I am just grasping at straws.

The coils are wired as shown in the PE manual, 1-4 and 2-3 on banks 1 and two, in series. The injectors are wired into two banks, left(1-2) and right(3-4). I tested continuity from the ecu connector to the coil and injector plugs, and everything tested as it should. The engine runs the same regardless of what injectors are in what positions, or what injector plugs are connected to which injectors. I haven't tried every possible connection yet, but enough to be confident that it isn't a wiring or an injector issue.

When it is running, it makes no difference in the idle quality whether injectors 3 and 4 are connected. Really, I'm impressed that it runs this well on only two cylinders.

I really hope I have missed something easy, because I really don't want to have to dive into the internals of an engine.

Thanks again for all your help,

Ian
Portland State University

P.S. Brian, expect a call sometime Sunday.

[Adambomb]

If you have two adjacent dead cylinders, and everything else is good, my first guess would be a blown head gasket. A fine-tuned ear can pick that out with a "redneck compression test" (described in my first post in this thread), otherwise a "real" compression tester is needed.

[sbrenaman]

Just tested compression, 145/150/150/150. Damn. Any other ideas? Gonna have Ian call Brian tomorrow.

[Gaanja]

@ scott

When you switched the spark plugs from 1&2 to 3&4, did you notice any difference in the tip colors? The variation in the colors can tell you whether the intake is distributing the flow evenly.

I have not worked on a PE. But if you have the option of trimming the fuel on individual cylinders, try leaning out the cylinders that don't fire.

If you cannot have individual trims, try and put on an intake from previous years when the engine was running fine and see if you have the same problem. If it runs fine with the old one you have a problem with the original manifold you were running on.

[Wesley]

So you've verified that the suspect cylinders are getting spark during cranking as well as during the diagnostics check?

Swapped coils around to see if that moves the problem? Swapped fuel injectors around for the same?

[blur95]

I have not verified that there is spark during cranking. The coils are wired in wasted spark, though, so if 1 and 2 are getting spark, how could 3 and 4 not? I will check it at next opportunity.

Coils and injectors have been swapped, problem does not follow either.

Ian

[Lutter]

Are you sure the injector banks are supposed to be wired 1 and 2 , then 2 and 3 on the same bank? We are running a yamaha r6, our spark is set up the same. I think it is supposed to be 1 and 4, then 2 and 3. Not sure on the firing order, but that could be a portion of your problem

[Wesley]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blur95:
The coils are wired in wasted spark, though, so if 1 and 2 are getting spark, how could 3 and 4 not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember your coil banks should be cylinder 1 and 4 on one bank, and cylinders 2 and 3 on the other. When 1 is sparking for power stroke, 4 is up for exhaust stroke, 2 is down on bottom of intake and 3 is down at bottom of power.

So you spark bank one at TDC on power stroke 0º (1 and 4 360 out of phase) and spark bank 2 at 180 when cyl 2 is up for power stroke and 3 is up finishing exhaust.

So just make sure you have bank one as the outer two cylinders, bank two as the inner two.

[Lutter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wesley:
Remember your coil banks should be cylinder 1 and 4 on one bank, and cylinders 2 and 3 on the other. When 1 is sparking for power stroke, 4 is up for exhaust stroke, 2 is down on bottom of intake and 3 is down at bottom of power.

So you spark bank one at TDC on power stroke 0º (1 and 4 360 out of phase) and spark bank 2 at 180 when cyl 2 is up for power stroke and 3 is up finishing exhaust.

So just make sure you have bank one as the outer two cylinders, bank two as the inner two. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He did say that was how the coils were wired, but aren't the injectors supposed to be wired the same? Just in parallel and not in series, 1 and 4 open, then 2 and 3 open?

[Mikey Antonakakis]

yeah, 1-4, 2-3. Injectors and coil should be wired that way. Check your plugs again if everything is wired correctly.

[sbrenaman]

Why would it matter how the injectors are wired?

[Lutter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sbrenaman:
Why would it matter how the injectors are wired? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your injectors need to open at the correct time. If you have them dumping gas in on the exhaust stroke, it will all get pumped out your header. My bet is that you have some wires switched around on the injectors. Its possible that it is still firing but with the wasted spark setup, it is still firing, just at the wrong time.

Ours is wired on the coil pack side as (Bank 1) - Coil 1 Control (#10) goes to cyl #4, the other wire goes to cyl #1, then a +12V Power wire goes to the second cyl #1 wire. Bank 2 is the same way but Coil 2 Control (#9). Series....

The injectors all have a +12V wire running to them, with ECU #18 (inj bank 1 control) wired to cyl 1 and 4. And ECU #19 (inj bank 2 control) wired to cyl 2 and 3. Parallel....


http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv206/lutter94/EngineWiring.jpg

[Wesley]

What do you mean why? So you don't spray fuel at a valve that's not going to open for a revolution and a half.

[sbrenaman]

Conceptually I understand what you're saying, but I think you need to go into more detail regarding actual open times and what not.

So ours are wired such that 1/2 and 3/4 are together, but the engine still runs on cylinders 1 and 2. It seems like if we were wired incorrectly, we'd be firing on 1/4 or 2/3.

[Ockham]

Out of curiosity, what tells you the engine's only running on two cylinders? Two cold headers while running? From what I've seen, RR engines will catch, but not run, on two cylinders, and I'd assume that F4is are similar. Of course, there's always something funky in our setups, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's possible to get only two cylinders running.

At what RPM did you try the compression test? I'm guessing cranking RPM, from what I've heard about your setup, but compression tests at over 1000RPM can give anomalous readings.

[sbrenaman]

2 Cold headers, and it sounds like a v-twin :P

The compression test was done at cranking RPM.

[Wesley]

Oh yes. The F4i will easily run on 2 cylinders. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
It just feels down on power and you have to hang the butterfly way open to idle.

[blur95]

I will try wiring the injectors up in banks of 1-4 and 2-3, and hopefully that helps. I am not optimistic about this for a few reasons.

1. Injector timing should not keep the engine from running. The valves are open about 25% of the time, how many people have their injectors open only 25% of the time?

2. Even if the injectors needed to be timed to port openings, wouldn't you want 1-2 and 3-4? The engine fires 1-2-4-3, so that would keep injector openings closer to valve openings if the ecu could read cam timing.

3. The ecu can't read cam timing, so it doesn't know when the ports open anyway. That brings up the question of whether the ecu cycles the coils once per revolution, or every other revolution. I would guess every other revolution, to minimize opening time effects,but that is just a guess. if 1-4 are wired together, and the ecu fires the injectors every other revolution, then one cylinder would always have the fuel injected one rotation before the valve opened.

4. Many cars have run on batch fire ignition. I don't think injector timing was an issue here. For an example, my car(1984 BMW) runs batch fire injection, with 1-2-3 and 4-5-6 as the banks. The firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4. It definitely has fuel sitting in the manifold for at least a revolution, and it runs just fine.

At this point, I hope I have missed something, and switching the wires will fix it, because I need to get it running really quick, competition is way too close.

On another note, I noticed something strange last night. We have an exhaust vent hooked up to the exhaust of the car, which provides suction. When the plugs are out of the car and the crank is in the right position, the plug holes will whistle. This only happens in cylinders one and two. I can't make it happen in cylinders 3 and 4, no matter how much I jog the starter. I'm not certain what means, but it warrants an inspection of the exhaust system. for some reason, the suction on the exhaust doesn't seem to be making it to cylinders 3 and 4.

I appreciate your help and ideas, thanks to all,

Ian

[sbrenaman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blur95:
On another note, I noticed something strange last night. We have an exhaust vent hooked up to the exhaust of the car, which provides suction. When the plugs are out of the car and the crank is in the right position, the plug holes will whistle. This only happens in cylinders one and two. I can't make it happen in cylinders 3 and 4, no matter how much I jog the starter. I'm not certain what means, but it warrants an inspection of the exhaust system. for some reason, the suction on the exhaust doesn't seem to be making it to cylinders 3 and 4. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo, Bango, Bongo.

I yanked the exhaust just a bit ago and sure enough, the 2 non-running cylinders were not flowing exhaust. Exhaust guy forgot to use the holesaw on the merge between the 2 dead cylinders and the other 2. Fun.

I can sleep now. The exhaust should be functional tomorrow evening, and I hope I can respond tomorrow evening with a "everything works great" post. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for the input everyone, this has been a great thread!

[poe21]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lutter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sbrenaman:
Why would it matter how the injectors are wired? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your injectors need to open at the correct time. If you have them dumping gas in on the exhaust stroke, it will all get pumped out your header. My bet is that you have some wires switched around on the injectors. Its possible that it is still firing but with the wasted spark setup, it is still firing, just at the wrong time.

Ours is wired on the coil pack side as (Bank 1) - Coil 1 Control (#10) goes to cyl #4, the other wire goes to cyl #1, then a +12V Power wire goes to the second cyl #1 wire. Bank 2 is the same way but Coil 2 Control (#9). Series....

The injectors all have a +12V wire running to them, with ECU #18 (inj bank 1 control) wired to cyl 1 and 4. And ECU #19 (inj bank 2 control) wired to cyl 2 and 3. Parallel....


http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv206/lutter94/EngineWiring.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still would be a good idea to wire up the injectors correctly per the PE instructions. We have had problems consistently with this from year to year. Can't seem to keep electrical and powertrain on the same page.

[Brian Barnhill]

The injectors STILL need to be wires 1/4 on on bank and 2/3 on the other. Will it still get fuel the other way? Yes... Will it run? Maybe... Will it run as optimized as possible? Not at all...

The PE-ECU uses semi-sequential injection (firing a pair of injectors every other revolution) Wiring 1/4 and 2/3 together minimizes the amount of puddling of fuel on the valves. With 1/2 wired together you will have 540 degees between fuel even and the intake event. With 1/4 wired together you have 360 degrees between the events. Yes, cars will work batch fire, but the ecu is setup to use this method, and the PE-ECU does not use it. Batch fire uses a different injector open angle than semi-sequential to account for the differences.

Hope that makes sense. Of course the exhaust needs to be fixed before anything! I would suggest re-wiring the injectors as well. Hopefully you come back with good news later. Good luck.

EDIT - something more - are you running a 4-2-1 exhaust, or a 4-1? If you are running a 4-2-1 exhust which cylinders have their primaries together in a merge collector? This should be 1/4 and 2/3 as well.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sbrenaman:
I yanked the exhaust just a bit ago and sure enough, the 2 non-running cylinders were not flowing exhaust. Exhaust guy forgot to use the holesaw on the merge between the 2 dead cylinders and the other 2. Fun.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad you found the problem.

That reminds me of a team that we spent all nignt helping at competition a couple of years ago. The problem turned out to be the exhaust guy stuffed the mufflers full of packing material to quiet the motor down. Problem is he packed it so tight that no air could flow either. We pulled the muffler off and literally dumped several ounces of fuel out of the clogged muffler.

Why is it always the last thing that you check? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Tom W]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B Lewis @ PE Engine Management:
Why is it always the last thing that you check? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because you stop looking after you have found the problem! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif