Design Judging

[theTTshark]

Who do I need to contact to see if design judges are still needed for Michigan?

Experience: 4 years with a Championship winning NASCAR team.

[sidkash14]

Steve Fox is the man. PM'd you the contact.

[Charles Kaneb]

If you serve at Michigan, now that Z has judged at Australasia, are there any regular posters left who aren't DJs?

[Owen Thomas]

I pop in every once in a while, just a lowly tech inspector.

[theTTshark]

Charles, I don't really think so, which is super unfortunate. Seems like the area that every US team (Canada too probably?) outside of Oregon State and ETS is struggling with is knowledge transfer and "knowledge building". The Germans, Austrians, etc seem to continuously build their knowledge base and abilities, but American teams tend now to go on 3 to 5 year runs, then experience sharp declines. I always felt like when I started out that this forum was a great resource outside of alumni and experienced memebers to actually learn things you needed to as well as have students and judges open up the possibilities of what you can do. Seems like the Facebook and Reddit FSAE groups now are more interested in seeing what everyone else is doing or complaining. You don't really see the super helpful vehicle dynamics or team building posts that members would put here. But maybe after 4 years away from the competition I'm becoming an old man and I just don't see those conversations happening (doesn't mean they aren't somewhere)..."GET OFF MY LAWN!"

[Claude Rouelle]

Charles, I don't really think so, which is super unfortunate. Seems like the area that every US team (Canada too probably?) outside of Oregon State and ETS is struggling with is knowledge transfer and "knowledge building". The Germans, Austrians, etc seem to continuously build their knowledge base and abilities, but American teams tend now to go on 3 to 5 year runs, then experience sharp declines. I always felt like when I started out that this forum was a great resource outside of alumni and experienced memebers to actually learn things you needed to as well as have students and judges open up the possibilities of what you can do. Seems like the Facebook and Reddit FSAE groups now are more interested in seeing what everyone else is doing or complaining. You don't really see the super helpful vehicle dynamics or team building posts that members would put here. But maybe after 4 years away from the competition I'm becoming an old man and I just don't see those conversations happening (doesn't mean they aren't somewhere)..."GET OFF MY LAWN!"

Yes European have a more professional organization (as it is in their racing habits). But look at India and Brazil: they are coming. And coming quick. They are coming from nearly nowhere but they ask the right questions, they are learning how to simulate and how to test quickly. Thar are hungry, more hungry than US and OZ students, no offense it is a reality that I see several times a year after year, that I see it every year. I would not be surprised to have an Indian team in the top 10 of FSG within 3 or 4 years

As far as the FSAE forum (Vs Facebook discussion groups) slower and slower pace and usefulness, who is it to blame? Facebook efficiency or FSAE lack of marketing and international communication? This forum is mainly a US thing. You see many German, Japanese, Indian,... people here?

Aging? Aging quickly? Well, aren't you in Nascar?....

[coleasterling]

If you ask the Reddit or Facebook groups, it is because this place is toxic with posters being called out and shamed by people like Claude and Z too regularly. I mostly see people migrating towards platforms they are more comfortable with. Traditional forums in general are dying, sadly. I personally despise trying to find information on a topic through Facebook.

It does seem like there isn't as much technical discussion on FB or Reddit. I can't think of the last time I saved a discussion from either of those. That said, they both have groups of people who genuinely enjoy helping, just like here. Just not my preferred place.

On the topic of knowledge transfer, it seems like US teams on average aren't as serious about FSAE as overseas. There's also the minority of school-run/senior design teams that intentionally limit knowledge transfer to maintain ambiguity going into capstone courses. They care far more about making sure students adhere to their version of learning the Design Process than they do about FSAE progress or results. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it is a contributing factor to lack of progression.

[DougMilliken]

If you ask the Reddit or Facebook groups,...
I've heard the "shaming" explanation too, and certainly agree that an unexpected dressing-down can be a shock. On the other hand, the usual suspects have been posting here in the same way, for many years (at least that's my impression). So, why the drop off at this time? I have a hunch that there are some other explanations.

Anyone? Why did you stop posting on FSAE.com? Anything to do with access to these pages over a phone (instead of larger screen)?

Personally, I hate trying to follow anything on Reddit, and have no use at all for Facebook. I'm sticking here for now.

[DougMilliken]

other options are viable now
I suppose this is possible, but the first two moderators on Reddit seem to have been there for ~7 years now. Perhaps it took 5 or 6 years to get to some critical size? Tried to search for early posts, but the search function doesn't seem to have the ability to sort by "oldest first" (??), or to look for posts from specific previous years. Or maybe searching on Reddit gets better if logged in (I wasn't).

[js10coastr]

I've stopped/slowed down as work has taken up more and more of my time. Also, I feel that I can contribute less to some of the discussions... that and there have been less that have piqued my interest.

I'd say a lot of the more recent threads are further into the theoretical/mathematical than I'm comfortable and/or experienced with.


On the global-internet side, I feel that there is a general move away from forums. It's hard to read a ~100 page long post to get to the current state of discussion, and yes facebook is easy and addicting to get updates on.

I would say that I'm now using the forums more as a reference book or "encyclopedia" if you will, and facebook for updates, short discussions and photos from teams.

[Z]

...because this place is toxic with posters being called out and shamed by people like Claude and Z too regularly.

Ahh, the "Snowflake Generation"! The precious little darlings have been brought up to think that regardless of how stupid or wrong they are, their mistakes must NEVER be mentioned, and they are always entitled to a Gold Star every day.

Teacher - "So you're not even going to try the "...dog ate my homework..." excuse?
You're just telling me straight-up that you couldn't be bothered doing it?
Well, ... nevermind, here's your Gold Star.
And today we're also handing out these magical rainbows and unicorns to everyone!"

Fact is, here in Oz at least, the FSAE-A "reward system" is 100% in the above direction. It does not matter, in any way, how utterly incompetent a Team's effort is, they will still receive some sort of trophy or award.

The clear message being given by the SAE-A is:

1. No need to work hard.

2. No need to learn anything.

3. No need to do any sort of "homework", such as reading stuff on Forums, let alone contributing to the discussions.

Instead of the above, oh-so old-fashioned approach, the Teams are encouraged to:

1. Make whatever "choices" they wish, with these choices requiring no supporting "Reasoning" whatsoever, because they can NEVER BE DESCRIBED AS WRONG.

2. Spend the whole year doing cool stuff, like playing with expensive toys and burning through as much tax-payers' money as is humanly possible.

3. And if any student ever feels the least bit "anxious", perhaps because they did something really stupid and this was subsequently pointed out to them, then they should blame the old people who did the pointing out. And perhaps start a global movement to have ALL the older generations hung, drawn, and quartered. (Yey! A bigger slice of cake for the Snowflakes.)
~o0o~

Of course, the above sorry state of affairs is only possible because of, and is thus the end result of, the many small successes of previous generations, going back many hundreds of years.

That is, the successes of people who were living in very hard times, and would feel extreme pain whenever they got anything the least bit wrong. How they must have loved having only a few harsh words thrown in their direction when they got things wrong, rather than the prospects of starvation or death.

Anyway, cycles being cycles, the current generation of Snowflakes will do their bit in returning society to that earlier state. It will take another few hundred years (~300 years +/-200, by my reckoning), but is as inevitable as night following day.

Meanwhile, enjoy your rainbows and unicorns! :)

Z

[Claude Rouelle]

I never have liked Z style.

Somebody told me one day that things in other people attitude that irritate me the most do show me the things I need to work on the most on myself if I want to "improve". That is maybe why I dislike Z style... Things I still need to work on. I guess it will be a never ending work...

But that being said, I have to mostly agree with him.

I could not help to put in parallel Z comments with this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEsUudZvntE

Food for thoughts

Claude

[tim_pattinson]

Why would anyone bother to use the forums when a good proportion of threads degenerate into bashing of Indian, Australian, American (non-FSG/Austria) teams?
The above discussion is a perfect example of why people consider the forums toxic. Constructive criticism is almost always welcomed. What *isn't* welcomed is ad-hominem and off-topic ranting.

[Z]

Tim,


Why would anyone bother to use the forums...
Constructive criticism is almost always welcomed...

You have given two excellent examples that support my case.

1. WHY BOTHER? - It used to be that students who either wanted to do well in these competitions, or else just wanted to learn "racecar-tech", would come to this Forum and spend ages reading through every single thread that covered their subject of interest. Then they would start asking questions, and work through that long to-and-fro process of engaging in a DIALOGUE, which is a necessary part of learning.

But Snowflakes don't have to "bother" with that, do they? Nope, plenty of trophies and awards on offer, no matter how incompetent or uneducated they are.

2. CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM - This is a Snowflake euphemism for:
"I couldn't be bothered trying to solve this problem myself. Too much thinking, and work, and effort involved.
So JUST GIVE ME THE ANSWER!!!
Yeah, and I want it served up on a silver plate. With lots of nice words about how clever I am. And maybe another Gold Star or award of some sort...
Yep, that's my ENTITLEMENT!"
~o0o~


What *isn't* welcomed is ad-hominem and off-topic ranting.

For the record, in Rhetoric ad-hominem is used as a means of avoiding the core argument, by instead attacking the person delivering the argument (ie. literally "to the man").

This thread is, in general, about "Design Judging", and since this DJ-ing necessarily involves the character of the students being judged, then discussions about the students' Snowflake-ishness are quite central to the topic.

Z

[js10coastr]

Perhaps there are less discussions going on because current students have scoured the forums and found the answer they were looking for and didn't need to bring up the topic again.

[Owen Thomas]

This doesn't really add anything of value so I hesitate to post, but let me paint you a picture regarding declining forum participation:

You are new in your chosen field and find yourself at a trade show or conference, undoubtedly so that you can walk away having learned something useful. You decide to approach a person and ask a question. Maybe it's technical and related to their booth, maybe you just want to know where the bathroom is - doesn't matter, but we'll go with the latter for the sake of this analogy. This person first asks what your name is and what company you work for, then immediately proceeds to stand on a pedestal and announce to everyone within earshot (which includes your peers and several well respected industry professionals) "*your name* IS AN IDIOT!". They step off the pedestal and smile at you, with one of two further outcomes:

1) They tell you to find it yourself, and exclaim to others nearby that *name & company* can't do anything and must not have been brought up right.
2) They grab your arm and forcibly drag you to the nearest toilet making sure to point out that the path they're taking is the best and most correct way from point A to B. Oh, and mention that you must not have been brought up right.

From any sane persons perspective, neither of these outcomes is desirable. None of us are obligated to post on these forums and we do so pro-bono, but regardless we are providing a service. If there was an extremely qualified mechanic in your neighborhood that worked on your vehicles for free but mercilessly berated you in front of the community while doing it, would you take your car down there often? More than once? Not likely - and you'll tell your friends about how it's not worth it too. Personally I'd watch some youtube videos and learn to do it myself instead, much less risk involved. Many of the posts on this forum either immediately turn to one of the two above situations or eventually turn to an incredibly in depth discussion where the OP has no hope whatsoever of understanding or contributing to (this part's not all bad though).

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes people just want to be pointed in the right direction, and that's all. Simple questions should beget simple answers, and that's where the other platforms shine.


Perhaps there are less discussions going on because current students have scoured the forums and found the answer they were looking for and didn't need to bring up the topic again.
One can only hope the archives survive. I for one very much appreciate this forum as a knowledge bank, but am finding that searches for old threads sometimes turn up empty.

[Z]

Owen,

The Snowflakishness is strong in you.

You have difficulty finding the toilets at a trade show? Seriously? And would you expect help with the clean-up afterwards, too?

As for the grumpy mechanic, if "extremely qualified" = "he knows his stuff, and is good at it", then I would be visiting him as much as possible. Even just to help him fix other peoples' cars. And I would bring coffee and chocolates, or, if he was a Citroen-guru, perhaps some good, cheap, red-wine and cheese, and those French bread-sticks. And when he "mercilessly berated" me I would smile, and nod my head, and smile again.

I would do all those things because I know that good knowledge is a very valuable thing, and IT DOES NOT COME FOR FREE.

You are seriously deluded if you believe you can learn anything of value without putting in at least some effort.

Z

[DougMilliken]

As for the grumpy mechanic, ...
Z -- thanks for bringing back some wonderful memories, from 40 years ago.

I was very fortunate to meet a grumpy craftsman as an undergrad. He had a terribly frightening personality, yelled frequently when he saw incompetence, thick gruff accent (Basque)--and most of my classmates did their best to avoid him. Later I learned that many of his relatives back in Bilbao, Basque (Spain) were ETA (look it up). But, as scary as this guy was, I could see that he was a real master craftsman, in many different materials -- tool maker, model maker, even made specialized machine tools when none was available. Once he decided to make something that hadn't been done before, he hung on like a bull dog and didn't let go until he had mastered all the problems. The amazing thing was, after taking his wrath for some time, I didn't notice it any more. Meanwhile I was learning at a rapid rate in his classes and machine/wood shop.

[turtle]

Anyone? Why did you stop posting on FSAE.com? Anything to do with access to these pages over a phone (instead of larger screen)?


The demographic of users here is not representative of the Formula SAE community. Combine that with changing attitudes and technology, you have users flocking to other platforms with discussion more relevant to their concerns. Perhaps it is signalling of a disconnect between student and 'teacher'.

Snowflake or not, we aren't going to change the culture of an entire generation. @theTTshark, I applaud you for recognising the culture shift and contributing to the FSAE community as a design judge.

[Owen Thomas]

Z,

You are cherry-picking what you want out of my post and taking it out of context. This is, sadly, expected and your attack adds weight to my statements.

My point certainly wasn't that it is difficult to find a washroom at a trade show, or that people aren't willing to put up with assholes at all for some valuable experience or information - this is very much a reality in every engineering workplace. It is that compared to these forums, there are *better options* for people to seek help or information and that your preferred method of teaching is ineffective.

The entire analogy was to highlight that in order for people to be successful, they just need to be pointed in the right direction. MOST young engineers that I know want to put in the work and figure things out themselves, but everyone has to start somewhere and stupid questions happen. Calling names and going on a tirade about today's youth is unnecessary and does nothing but feed your ego - something that has no place in a professional environment. There are lots of people in the world, and indeed even on these forums, that can be educational and respectful. If you truly cared about teaching future generations you would adapt your strategy to be more effective. Read a (modern) book on the topic, there has been significant research and some drastic changes in methodology in the last 20-30 years.

[Z]

Owen,


...cherry-picking...

As Socrates and his pupil Plato spelled out so clearly two and a half thousand years ago, the surest way to the "truth" is to engage in a DIALOGUE. Or as Plato called it, DIALECTIC.

Here, each small part of each person's argument is examined in detail, and is thus shown to either have merit, or be worthless. (Incidentally, this process also works when you are by yourself, whereby you can have an "inner dialogue" to decide between competing ideas in you head. For example, "...four-cylinders, twin, or single, what are the pros and cons?".)

Also clearly spelled out back then was that MOST OFTEN such examinations end in "aporia", namely "dead-end". That is, the examined detail of a specific argument is, indeed, shown to be worthless, having no supporting evidence, or being logically invalid, or so on. That part of the argument then needs to be "struck from the record" and the person proposing it must start again. (Again incidentally, it is for this reason that there is so little of such "well-reasoned argumentation" today, because it takes a long time, so is oh-so hard work!)

My "cherry-picked" point in previous post was that just because you can ask the simple question "Where is the bathroom/toilet/washroom?", that does not mean you should always expect to get back a simple, HELPFUL, answer. For example, if the reply comes back as "No idea, you'll have to find it yourself.", then do you take this unhelpful response as some sort of attack, or abuse?

Many Snowflakes do, and your earlier posts suggest that you would too. In which case you have a totally unrealistic view of the way the real world works. So your earlier argument that "Simple questions should beget simple [helpful] answers..." is plain wrong, and should be struck from the record.

Spelling this out more bluntly, you have NO RIGHTS, or "entitlements" as they are called nowadays, to any sort of "helpful answers" AT ALL! You either have to hope that people are generous with their knowledge, or else you have to work hard to find the right answers yourself.
~o0o~


...in order for people to be successful, they just need to be pointed in the right direction.

Utter NONSENSE!

Hang a carrot in front of a donkey with a full stomach, and the donkey turns AWAY from the carrot.

Likewise, the modern generation of students all have full stomachs, and "pointing them in the right direction" does nothing more than to add yet another "choice" to the multitude of choices that they already have, and that they believe they are free to choose from. Claude's earlier YouTube link mentioned just how ridiculous is this belief that "...you can have anything you want in life..." (~1:30+).

In other words, point them in the right direction, and very soon afterwards they are wandering in the opposite direction. "Oh, look..., a butterfly...".
~o0o~


...your preferred method of teaching is ineffective.

So why do some of the top teams in the world keep a file of my posts?

My guess is they do this so they can at least CONSIDER the ideas presented there. And sometimes they actually ADOPT the ideas that I suggest, often quite successfully, but invariably against the thinking of the rest of the flock. Of course, this consideration and adoption requires a lot of close examination of all the little details of the arguments. So it involves a lot of very long-winded "dialogues" within the team, as explained at top of this post. So it only really works for the teams that are prepered to put in that effort.

As for the teams at the bottom of the ladder, well, they immediately dismiss my arguments as the rantings of a crazy old-man. So, yes, for them my methods are quite ineffective.
~o0o~


Read a (modern) book on the topic [of teaching strategy], there has been significant research and some drastic changes in methodology in the last 20-30 years.

With a mountain of hard evidence to show what a complete and utter FAILURE it is! The modern education system is in freefall. It is a farce.

In fact, it is nigh-on impossible these days to find a single engineering student, under- or post-graduate, who can solve a simple FBD. Is there anyone out there who can post a sketch here, showing how to solve the "man on a ladder" FBD, by drawing two straight lines?

Owen, your current very comfortable standard-of-living has nothing to do with YOUR work or efforts. Or with any educators' efforts from "the last 20-30 years". It is the result of the accumulated efforts of generations from many centuries, and even millenia, ago. But your current standard-of-living can be lost, though as I noted earlier, that will take some time. It seems that you are doing your best to move in that direction.

Z

[Rex]

This. This right here is why people quit the forums. Specifically, because Claude is an ass, and a persistent one. Z is too sometimes, although he at least has moments of reasonableness scattered in there over the years. Several other folks fall in the same category but are not worth listing. Their attacks on simple questions have killed these forums. The personal attack on Owen above is wildly out of line. This sort of stuff now represents the normal course operation of this forum. I’m closing my account after this post because there is nothing left here for me but disappointment.

I’m in a position to be a customer of Claude’s in real life, and I will NEVER give him an ounce of business, simply because he’s an ass on these forums. They say “you can’t win the internet,” and that’s true. I’m sure Claude or any other inflammatory personality on these forums will have the last word here. Feel free. Tell everyone how great things are going for you, and how you always prove yourself right. But treasure that smugness while it lasts; I don’t need a crystal ball to predict how people’s actions on this forum will have lasting effects on their real-life businesses as a generation of young upcoming FSAE students transition into decision making roles in the racing and automotive world.

[tim_pattinson]

Claude, Z:
Why did people stop using the forums?

Other people:
This is why.

Claude,Z:
You're wrong, and also an idiot.

[DougMilliken]

As Socrates and his pupil Plato spelled out so clearly two and a half thousand years ago,
My guess is that, over time, Z will be shown to be correct. Socrates is also credited with this quote (which may have lost a bit in translation over the years?):
“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

Chatter certainly reminds me of my limited forays into Reddiit. Not a FB user, so won't comment on that company.

[Forbes]

Yes, Z can be strident and abrasive; he is also manifestly brilliant and exceedingly well informed. And, yes, Claude can be petulant and self-promotional; he also has extensive experience in various forms of motorsport. Moreover, the endless pissing contest between the two is tiresome. But I don’t think either of them are the reason why fewer people now seem involved in this forum. Like Doug Milliken, I once had a very grumpy old boss, from whom I learned much: How to feel the slight harshness that is borderline detonation; how to distinguish by ear between ‘too-rich’ and ‘insufficient spark advance’. (A quick way to learn to NOT leave the chuck-key in the drill press is to have it thrown at your head!)
No, I believe the problem here is, at root, an inability to postpone reward. This incapacity may be taken as a refusal – whereupon Z’s blood pressure rises dangerously . The truth is, there is nothing in most U. students’ prior experience to suggest, let alone persuade them, that the route to real fulfillment in life is to do well something worthwhile but difficult
Owen Thomas’ school must be very different from the one I worked at for several years. For about a decade after retirement, I was an unofficial tech advisor to the U Toronto FSAE team. During that time, I met many bright, engaged young people, several of whom have since become good friends. Along the way, I learned much, partly from the young’uns, but to a greater extent from this forum, and especially from Z.
My relationship with the team ended 3 or 4 years ago, after I blew up (Z-like!) at one of our weekly beer-and-BS sessions. The people around me were not conspicuously stupid, but they were abstracted; they just didn’t seem to have any curiosity. It was as if they didn’t give a damn, as if FSAE was a box they needed to tick (go through the motions, learn the buzzwords, get the T-shirt, add an item to your CV).
I provided them with a reading list, plus links to some useful and reliable websites. No one even read the list, let alone any of the works on it! All knowledge came from the little metal friend they all carry. Reading more than one screen’s worth at a time was too boring, perhaps too taxing. Indeed, I think they are quite imply incapable of sustained concentration. (“First we shape our tools; then they shape us.” – Marshall McLuhan.)
No, I’m with the old guys.
P.S. Z: check your personal email. I sent you a message on 19 Feb.

[Owen Thomas]

I'd just like to set straight that I never called into question anyone's value in terms of technical knowledge. I too have several of your posts saved Z, my commentary on ineffectiveness was the *style* in which you dole out information. Your ideas on working things out from first principles are valid and well supported, they just usually come with an (unnecessary) peppering of insults on a very public stage.

Again, the problem is not the statement "find out for yourself". If I were to ask someone a question and they can't or won't give me an answer that is totally OK, but there's no reason to be rude about it - it's not an entitlement issue it's just that *given the option* I'd rather not deal with assholes. Regardless of opinions about the "snowflake generation" this is why people use the other platforms more. They do not know who populates each site, just that there are people who know better than them willing to help. If all options appear equal at first glance what incentive is there to choose an option that has a reputation for 'toxicity'?
It's worth mentioning that when I started mentoring new students (during my time on the team and after graduation) I struggled because of exactly these issues. People were hesitant to speak with me about problems or to seek information because I could be difficult - often my suggestions were ignored and when something failed all I had to say was "I told you so". After much discussion with other educators and a change in approach, I've noticed a DRAMATIC upswing in not only the frequency with which students reach out, but how often my ideas are implemented. Did my value as a source of information change? Maybe, but I know what definitely did change: my attitude and (over time) reputation.

Certainly the Reddit and Facebook groups are unfocused, I think that's a byproduct of the platforms themselves. Perhaps of the entire generation, as suggested by Forbes - but I choose to believe that it's just a very visible minority of young impatient people. My school is definitely similar to the situation described at U of T but there are still good, ambitious students in the pool.

This site serves as a fantastic source of information for people who are willing to look and I continue to suggest it to current competitors, but in many cases there's no awareness that it even exists until it pops up on a google search. Word of mouth is powerful, and purposefully alienating newcomers does not help grow a community.

[noah]

Perhaps there are less discussions going on because current students have scoured the forums and found the answer they were looking for and didn't need to bring up the topic again.

Agreed. I also think unless students want to ask a question about something they have very little knowledge on, they are reluctant to reveal too much of their own knowledge on any technical discussions regarding specific components for fear of revealing their teams "secrets". I wonder if that is actually the case or not.

A lot of it also does comedown to traditional forums being less popular with college students of today.

[coleasterling]

...they are reluctant to reveal too much of their own knowledge on any technical discussions regarding specific components for fear of revealing their teams "secrets"...

I've seen this since I started working with FSAE teams in 2009, although it does seem to have gotten more prevalent. I can understand that. I was personally reluctant to post details about our electric drive system in 2011. At that time, I thought it was something special enough that we could lose an advantage in a competitive environment. Now I see it as a missed learning opportunity and have advocated for transparency across programs in Texas as a way to better all of the teams.

[Will M]

Every few months I stop by here for FSAE news.
But I stopped posting because this forum was no longer enjoyable or productive.

Survey about why you stopped posting:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSekPV8EQf2kp7TTUJ0KqsK6Upo2MaKDU2SibjjhIDE7 FBodKQ/viewform?usp=sf_link

But my guesses based on feedback from my old team
1) The reputation of this forum is: "toxic with posters being called out and shamed by people like Claude and Z too regularly"
The first few pages confirm this for any new visitor

2) Most topics that are well understood by the top posters here have been beaten to death.
I bet most team just save a link to the most relevant threads and share those.
All the info without posting.

3) Most students have different goals for FSAE than the main posters here
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdaiImCFRFWQQc9UitSu3X_pTS0i6zMY1gvTgNNHnID AZz18Q/viewform?usp=sf_link

Survey summery; edited for conciseness

Students top 2 goals
58% Build a cool car and have fun
56% Improve your engineering skill set
27% Win the competition
26% Get a job in motorsports

Things people like most about FSAE
(Friends)
• Learning new skills in mostly friendly environment
• Friendship!
• Team culture and "doing cool shit". Do more cool shit.
• Team spirit, working after midnight, heated debates in a specific topic, see the Car running for the first time.
• Friendship
• The relationships created will last a lifetime. I got to spend a great amount of my time in college working with like-minded individuals with the same goal and mindset.
• The relationships built with good friends on the team, and the late night experiences with them.
• The teamwork, friends, building car with someone else's money
• Teamwork. I have not seen such good teamwork in industry again.
• The teamwork that goes into making the car. And also assembling the car for the first time.
• Getting friends for life and getting my current PhD position on what I saw working in FSAE
• Friends, skills, and a place for everyone and all still levels and all amounts of time to dedicate.
• The camaraderie between most of the teams. Most teams understand that we are all competing, learning, and suffering together.
• Teamwork and Camaraderie
• Friends, competition, having something to show and say "I designed, tested, and made this"
• Team camaraderie, made friends on 2 continents, got a good job
• Hanging around with people all around the world, exchanging engineering opinions with other teams, have a small feeling of what top-level motorsport is like
• Developing friendships with other like-minded young professionals.
• Team bonding in difficult times.
• Team work
• Meeting enthusiastic students.
• I value greatly the friendships and the professional network of alumni those friendships have created.
• The team atmosphere and friends I made. We try to keep in touch with other alumni and current students, & organize alumni meetup events
• The team work and personal growth.
• Intra and inter team spirit of camaraderie. Hungriness to learn. Dedication.

(Design)
• Design. Have a manufac team so I could focus more on design
• Knowledge gain.
• Designing and manufacturing the vehicle, implementing cutting edge technology, optimizing the final vehicle to find the best performance, the ability to have freedom over a design.
• What I enjoyed the most was the ability to take an component or system through the process of idea creation, to CAD, analysis, iterations, machining, assembly, testing, and repeat.
• A chance to prove I can build one of the best cars out there and push myself to learn more than I had before.
• The ability to see such a large project from start to finish. It's always exciting to see the model become a reality.
• Being able to design, build, and race a complete car from scratch
• I got to build a few cars from the ground up and race them
• Discussions in Engineering Design Event
• Learning about how engineering met practical application. Learning the ins and outs of dyno, combustion engine, fabrication, and assembly.
• I think the biggest thing was learning practical applications for the engineering curriculum and near real-world design/build/test experience.
• The hands-on experience I got, learning how to make stuff happen even when the path was unclear. Working long hard hours with folks who became close friends.
• Dynamic events. More testing
• The massive design freedom. Allow wooden skirts for the tunnels
• "Attending competition and meeting a heap of people with similar interests.
• Exploring new methods and technologies and seeing their results."
• Working with other engineers on projects - need more people so there's more than 1 person per subsystem!
• designing the car itself.
• finding Solutions in a competitive surrounding
• The sense of accomplishment when seeing a car you spent 8 months building hit the race track.
• Learning how to apply engineering fundamentals.
• Putting education to practice. Learn more and apply more.
• I enjoyed the competitiveness and the math/conceptual understanding. To continue reading literature on the subject.
• Winning. Win more.
• The ability to see my ideas play out from start to finish. Concept to Endurance.
• The challenge of getting a large group of people to a single uniting goal of winning.
• The intense requirement from project management, it forces even the most open of engineers to think about an entirely different aspect of engineering.
• Building something unique and awesome. Add more boost with a better tune.



Things people like least about FSAE
(The Organization)
• No soul in the whole meeting. no ability to create emotion, memories, nostalgia.
• Some of the politics involved in the organization. Perhaps try to get involved in the program when I am older and have graduated.
• Sexism, both on the team and in the competition in general
• Over-complicated rule book and often (in Aus) poor design judges.
• Rigid organisation structure of SAE with lack of transparency. Poorly implemented rule cycles and event organisation. Increase transparency of the organisation and student input into the event and rules development.
•

(Static events)
• Discussions with scruitineers
• Static events. Work harder to find someone else to do it.
• The current way the competition is giving the points. They are promoting more and more the complex side of producing a car. And focusing less on the engineering side.
• Doing, aka cheating the cost report. Everybody knows its full of sh*t
• Cost report

(University)
• Constantly having to convince everyone that we were not just welding together a race car out of scrap metal and burning university money, but actually learning a lot regarding project management and engineering.
• Dealing with university politics. Also Steve Daum at the US events.
• Fundraising and justifying the existence of the club to the college. I think it would go a very long way if the college properly funded the program and integrated it more.
• Hard to be more deeply involved in the design/build without previous car/engineering knowledge. Meaning skills needed (FEA, CAD, design) aren't always taught in engineering school and maybe not until last year.
• Lack of university support (facilities/money/administration/direction). Increased support would bring legitimacy to the program and to the university.
• Not having adequate University support, and a lack of consequences for missed deadlines is horrible to deal with. A lot of time is wasted on non-engineering tasks.
• Politics. Nothing one can do
• The pressure doing something very time intensive beneath learning for university.\
• University politics. Advise others to go to another university.
• Was not worth any credit at my University, which can discourage those who really care about their grades from putting serious time into it.

(Team dynamics)
• Dealing with shitheads who contribute sweet fuck all but act like they own the place. Have a management team with a backbone
• Dealing with students not as motivated as myself.
• few team members doing much less work than others
• "Managing team members, understanding that other section leads had a different level of commitment to the project.
• Create a method to have section leads understand their commitment and how it effects the final product. As well, a method for selecting section leads that are truly interested in the project, and not only the prestige. "
• Our team's faculty advisor. Overly controlling and unreasonable.
• People who don't care about deadlines. Doesn't even work for Germans obviously..
• Politics within the club
• Some team members were selfish and didn't get the big picture of the competition
• Team mates backing out of the team after their final exams for the semester, or after delivering their thesis.
• Team members not pulling their weight
• team politics
• Very unequal distribution of work for relatively similar recognition
• I wouldn't enjoy members who were involved purely to hang out, and not apply engineering fundamentals.

[Charles Kaneb]

I set off some controversy with the remark about the regulars here being design judges.

There were two ways this could've gone:

1) The way it did, which was to assume that the chicken came first and that we have scared off everyone else. This was followed by some remarks on the poor flying abilities of chickens and of their cowardice.

2) The other way, where FSAE graduates have gone off into industry, kept involved in the competition by posting on FSAE.com threads and talking to their successors at school, and finding themselves with the ability to take the time away to judge or scrutineer. I know that fsae.com helped convince me that I had something useful to teach as a design judge. I suspect sidkash and thettshark think the same way. SAE is often looking for judges, so if you're qualified and want to, look up the CDJ for the event. Do you know anyone who'd make a good design judge?

I did not mean to slight Owen, so let me apologize and point out that a design judge can ASK students if they want to improve something on their car next year, while a scrutineer can TELL students to fix something on their car as fast as they possibly can so that they can compete.

Oviparous animals were around for millions of years before birds, let alone chickens!

[Will M]

So I shared my survey here on FSAE.com, on the FSAE Facebook group, and on the FSAE Sub Reddit.
No doubt I missed some platforms but I got 245 responses.
There are thousands of FSAE'ers but this is at least a snapshot of the community.
Respondents could choose multiple answers and submit comments as well.
Over the past few days I notice several recurring comments so I added them to the answer list.
In the results below I converted those comments into standard answers and scaled them up based on when I added them to the list.

For me the most disappointing response was "Not aware of it".
I remember being introduced to this forum and delving into its 8000+ threads and then later excitedly showing new students as they joined.
It is truly saddening to see how the new generation of students have been turned away.

% of respondents that selected this answer
59% "because this place is toxic with posters being called out and shamed by people like Claude and Z too regularly"
36% There are better platform options
25% The info I want from here has already been discussed. Just read old threads and no need to post
13% Low activity level so I don't post (catch 22)
8% Excess of "Give me the answer plz thx" posts
4% I graduated
3% I post regularly at www.fsae.com/forums/
2% Not aware of it

245 Total Responses

-William

[Z]

William,

Well done. You have a bright future in marketing, politics, or any sort of "post truth" career. You have just given an excellent example of how a "market survey" can deliver ANY result you want, provided that you prepare it correctly.

By giving the explicit option of "Because this place is toxic with posters being called out and shamed by people like Claude and Z too regularly" near the top of your list, you have given it the benefit of the "donkey vote". This is where the respondents who move their lips as they read, and so have trouble with such long lists, just go with something near the top.

How do you think the survey would have gone if, instead of the above option, you put in something like "I couldn't be bothered, because I know I will get good "FSAE credit" even with minimal knowledge/understanding of how these cars work."? Or would that be expecting too much honesty?

Anyway, the argument that "Claude and Z [scared us away]" is clearly nonsense, given that both Claude and I have been here for well over a decade, and some of the Forum's highest-traffic moments have been while we were both doing what we do, as we have always done.

The real reason for the slow-down in posts is that the current generation of students are spineless Snowflakes, who are totally lacking in the strength of character needed to engage in honest, truthful, dialogue.

As they have made abundantly clear (read this thread), they:
1. Have no need for any genuine learning (because they will always get their Gold Stars).
2. Are too lazy/frightened to engage in the rational dialogue that is necessary to find "the truth".
3. So, they instead go to the so-called "better platforms" where, for example, they are handed on a silver plate, with a generous dose of sugar, the idea that a Damping Ratio of 4:1 is one of the "multiple right solutions". (<- :D Good luck with that!)

Ahh, yes, the descent into decrepitude accelerates!

Z

[Will M]

Example of a crappy platform. I had a response complete but got logged out and lost it so you get a rough version.
***

I created the survey seeking truthful and accurate data.
Claiming that I manipulated it is untrue and uncalled for.

Counter points

1)
46% of respondents selected multiple answers or left a comment.
If I remove everyone that only selected "because this place is toxic..." then the response rate for that answer drops to 39%.

If I only consider single selection responses the rate goes down to 47% (they spent less effort on the survey)
If I only consider multiple selection responses the rate goes up to 80% (they spent more effort on the survey)

So the more effort a person spent on the survey the more likely they are to cite the negative environment as the reason they stopped posting.

2)
Rank - 3 Rate - 59% "because this place is toxic…
Rank - 4 Rate - 36% There are better platform options
Rank - 5 Rate - 25% The info I want from here has already been discussed….
Rank - 6 Rate - 13% Low activity level so I don't post (catch 22)
Rank - 2 Rate - 8% Excess of "Give me the answer plz thx" posts
Rank - 7 Rate - 4% I graduated
Rank - 1 Rate - 3% I post regularly at www.fsae.com/forums/
Rank - 8 Rate - 2% Not aware of it

The top 4 responses are the middle 4 on the list.
The second answer is ranked 7th.
This does not indicate a strong order bias.
But I turned on the shuffle feature for future respondents.

3)
In the comments from the survey people often cited the negativity.
Some named names.
One said you were normally correct but were too abrasive.
On the other platforms where I shared a link many people also cited the negativity.

4)
I don't have access to forum statistics but I have also been here for 10 years.
I would prefer data over rhetoric but would wager that the activity peak because in part of your involvement.
For years and years I have seen for you beat down rather than lift up many new comers to the forum.
One by one they were driven off.

Summery)
Nothing I have seen indicates that the survey data is grossly incorrect.
The negativity is the top cause for people not using the forum.

Those students still need experience people's guidance.
But if the cost is being berated they will get it elsewhere.
Other platforms or your own old posts.

I recommend you consider writing a book.
You have written much here to give you starting material.
That way you have share a guide without having to fight college students.

It is late. Night :)

-William

[js10coastr]

William,

Thank you for creating the survey. It is an example of someone who has gone out and done some research and presented the data. As Claude would say "Is it perfect? No, is it useful?..."

Let's imagine a moment where for example we have two competing engine manufacturers... For arguments sake lets call one "Rhonda" and the other one "Sherry", and they compete in a completely fictional racing series called "Mindy-car". Both manufacturers have had success in the past and offer similar products and levels of performance.

Err, scratch that... that's a little too close to home.

Let's say that there are two competing hockey stick manufacturers, one named "Weston" and one named "MMC". Both are used by professionals and amateurs alike. However both companies started to receive emails and calls from the amateur market that their latest carbon composite sticks were breaking.
Both companies studied the problem and discovered that the way the amateur market was transporting the sticks to and from the games reduced their structural integrity. MMC designed a new stick with slightly different materials to make a more robust stick, while Weston blamed the customers for mis-handling the product.

Which company went on to become more successful?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing that current students expect a gold star or don't want to put in the work, but what I'm saying is that if you're offering a product and the feedback is not positive, either you have to change your product or someone else will capitalize on the opportunity and customers will go elsewhere.

[Z]

I created the survey seeking truthful and accurate data.
Claiming that I manipulated it is untrue and uncalled for...

William,

You miss the point.

Your original survey was biased because it gave the respondents a very easy option to support the "...let's blame Claude and Z for all our problems" side of the argument, but no similarly easy option to support the other side of the argument, such as "...couldn't be bothered, because not necessary for good marks...". It is too late to change this bias now, because too many students have already "piled on" to the "...blame Caude and Z" riot , and the echo-chamber will keep ringing for quite a while yet.

It doesn't matter whether your bias was deliberate, or sub-conscious, the fact is the survey was biased. And that, of course, is most common in the real world. Any survey that offers pre-written responses is biased. Even the way the questions are asked can introduce bias. And any survey that gives updates of its results as it runs will eventually become biased, because of "mob-mentality".

Imagine if you put as an option "I was too spineless/lazy/stupid to cope with Claude's requests for social politeness, or Z' s demands for intellectual rigour, so I ran away." This is quite likely the reason for a significant percentage of students leaving the Forum. But would any respondents tick that box? Of course not! Because it reflects badly on them. So they tick the other boxes, and the survey ends up biased.
~~~~~o0o~~~~~

Anyway, I am without doubt the most attacked and abused person here. But did I run away? No, because, firstly, I have a backbone, and secondly, as I have stated several times in the past, I am here conducting a social experiment. Namely, is it possible to slow a small part of society's slide into Idiocracy?

Well, with this experiment now running for well over a decade, the results are quite clear. This "Descent into Decripitude" (<- trademark applied for :)) is unstoppable.

And in case some of you are wondering why I didn't try harder, perhaps by using more "niceness" in my posts, well, that would be like trying to cure a diabetic by feeding them pure sugar! The root problem, you fools, is too much sugar, and not enough fibre, or "roughage", in your intellectual diet!!!

Experiment over. Hypothesis confirmed.

Enjoy you fairy-floss futures! :)

Z

[maxay1]

Z,

I hope this doesn't mean that we'll no longer benefit from your contributions here; that would be a shame. I'd like to thank you for the effort that you put into your posts (the explanation of yaw radius of gyration is without a doubt, the greatest post ever. Period).
I continue to refer to your information, and I'm grateful for your efforts here.
I know for a fact that there are people that have posted here in the past, that no longer do so, because of the lack of rigor present on the forum. They work in the highest level of motorsport, and this is no coincidence.

[Will M]

@js10coastr
Thank you for the support :)
I am not a survey making expert but I would always rather have data than rhetoric.

@Z
"Any survey that offers pre-written responses is biased. Even the way the questions are asked can introduce bias."
Naturally every survey has some bias.
I would bet the when and where I shared the link had a large effect.
Also I only got a few hundred responses out of 10,000+ FSAEers.
But the real question to ask: is the data useful?
That is a resounding yes.
This forum has a huge problem with a reputation for negtivity and frankly bullying.

The challenge with freeform surveys is a lower response rate and that they rarely produce useful data without significant analysis.
And that analysis introduces its own bias.
This is not a deeply scientific survey but demanding totally unbiased data is like saying "it is useless to measure electrons because you cannot know the exact momentum and speed".
Measurement always introduces bias, but it is possible to get useful data from it.
Which is what I have done.

""I was too spineless ... so I ran away." This is quite likely the reason for a significant percentage of students leaving the Forum"
This is the other side of the same coin.
Those students came for guidance and got yelled at.
They did not want to pick a fight on the internet so they left.

The point is that you cannot change their behavior.
But you can change yours.

-William

[dsr629]

Z,

I tried to learn, but all my teachers were from your generation. They convinced me that I'm only supposed to work until I get a gold star.

[Dylan Edmiston]

The real reason for the slow-down in posts is that the current generation of students are spineless Snowflakes, who are totally lacking in the strength of character needed to engage in honest, truthful, dialogue.

Z

See attachment.

[BillCobb]

Papa, why do you play
All the same old songs
Why do you sing
With the melody

Cause down on the street
Somethings goin' on
There's a new beat
And a brand new song

He said
In my life, there was so much anger
Still I have no regrets
Just like you, I was such a rebel
So dance your own dance, and never forget

N'oubliez jamais
I heard my father say
Every generation has it's way
A need to disobey

N'oubliez jamais
It's in your destiny
A need to disagree
When rules get in the way
N'oubliez jamais

[Will M]

Hi Bill,

I don't want to misunderstand you by guessing what the lyrics mean to you.
Could you say what you meant plainly?

I recently saw a funny TV show where people had wildly different interpretations of the song "Cat's In The Cradle".
(not letting time slip away / revenge on a crappy father / revenge on a crappy son)

Many Thanks,
William

[BillCobb]

To me, the song hits a feeling that I'm reminded of all the time. The growth of human evolution seeds the future with new priorities, new problems and new solutions to old and new problems and wishes. Think music, mathematics, astronomy, Hollywood, social networking, recreation, and 'involvment'.

In the case of this Forum, the 'pressure' has been to 'perform' at almost unimaginable precision to accomplish WHAT ? ' Racing' isn't in vogue now. It is environmentally unfavorable, it has a reputation for being dangerous, its BORING, its dominated by spendthrifts and egocentric personalities.
Competition here sets performance goals that are unreachable and un-managable in the time-frame of our parents. Online intellect smears the accomplishments of 'average' individuality. What has kept it going is/was a 'promise' of great riches and salutations by peers. (Peers are people who live near you, not people who think like you). So, Globalism has opened the blinds to those in the dark, and yet WE are seeing the 'Exclusive club' trying to drive them down the same path as we took. As in Jurassic Park: Nature finds a way. Tomorrow's engineers, scientists, artists, astronomers etc. will use newer tools, A.I. neural nets, 3D printing, nanobots and Dark Matter to entertain their minds, and lift their spririts.

Hey, take a look at the Facebook MarketPlace in your area: They take a handmade piece of furniture, crafted from solid wood, one of a kind artisan ordained and what happens ? 'They' (those folks usually with hyphenated names) buy it from an estate sale, paint it with chalk paint in phlegm green mixed with flour, spank it with chains and gravel, then advertize it on Facebook with words like "gorgeous", "amazing", "spectacular", "beautiful", etc. To us it may be butt-phuk ugly. To the next generation its "incredible", "awesome", and "glamerous". I'm horrified, but accept the inevitable. Next take music, or games, or movies, or food, sports, etc. Things are different, every few years there too.

Look, when I was a student, I learned to program an IBM 1620 in machine language. I punched a card deck 1" thick to solve for the roots to a quadratic equation. I worked on a analog computer to design a stick balancer using amplifiers, potentiometers, resistors, and wires. The outgrowth of that was a digital simulation running in real time to control a column of flimsy fuel tanks with 3 men on top of the stack (called Saturn-5). When I hired into GM, guys would run a TTY to get an estimate of steering gain, understeer and response time, taking about a half day to prepare and run the sim. I can currently run thousands of these per second using a tire database, and K&C database and and inertia estimator. The results are so accurate, we don't even have to run road tests anymore.

So, the ways of elders are provocative, sometimes enlightening, and usually uninteresting to the next crowd. As life/survival becomes easier, the challenges people face also become easier because better ways of doing things get developed. OR, you don't need to bale hay anymore because we don't ride our horses to work. Now about that Frank Sinatra album I found in the garbage... Remember the 'good old Days ?' Well they weren't really so good. OK that was a Red Bull moment !

[Will M]

Well said.

I am confident that FSAE* has a role to play in developing young engineers.
And that its experienced members have wisdom to share.
But I have found** that relatively few FSAE students*** are deeply interested the 'traditional FSAE' engineering problems.

Consider how many teams have two or three students that do all of the suspension, chassis, and powertrain work?
How many teams show up that have developed their of software?
Or some other 'side' project that is only tangentially related to building a FSAE car?

I submit that these students are not stupid but rather solving problems that the FSAE competition does not reward.
The effort required to do better at the competition is far greater than the reward.
So they rationally pursue projects that 1) interest them 2) advance their career prospects

Additionally traditional FSAE engineering problems have been beat to death.
For many students there are solutions to these problems that are good enough.
If suspension, chassis, and powertrain are not interesting to a student then they can just copy an existing functional design.
This lets them tackle the problems that they find actually interesting and challenging.

To wrap up I hope that FSAE can adapt to the changes and continue to grow.
And that its experience members (here and elsewhere) will support the students in whatever challenge they choose to tackle.

- William

*and the Collegiate Design Series overall
** my first survey
** let alone engineering students in general