Maybe, who needs Class II?!

[Lemon Lime]

Hi everyone!



Let me get to this straight and quickly, Class II is useless! I've been in a team who happens to be the so called "biggest FS Team in Egypt"! And we haven't spun a wheel on the track since 2010!



Four freakin' years, entering the competition every year, and no wheel spun! Not even touched the track! Not even proper questions on the forum! No basic knowledge, Just nearly the same design "on papers" every year with the same mistakes!



So, how many teams in Egypt?! A lot! Really ... Like 12 or something! All the same! Each team needs a budget of approx. 500,000 EGP which is about 70,000 USD to manufacture their FSAE racer car "which ends up in Class II". So, about 1,000,000 USD are being spent every year for some people who eventually take selfies at London Eye! And not a single benefit for the sake of our nation!



I don't get any new knowledge, and I'm not going to spend quite a lot of money for a plane ticket to attend a competition which I know and pretty much the whole team knows that we'll get the same last year's result or even less!



Simply, Class II does waste a lot of money for developed countries "tickets, transportation and stay"! And we can say that no benefits at all, we don't even manufacture cars in Egypt! No body benefits!



There should be more constrictions; no class II and please, an online interview for new teams "well, and some not too good teams" before getting in the competition for a pre-evaluation.



FS is about building a broad generation of engineers who would make a real difference in the whole automotive industry, right?!



And, the competition could be a lot better, efficient if 10 or 20 teams less attend it! It's simple, cancel Class II! Any team fails at Class I should be marked so that next time an online interview will be held to decide whether a team should attend or not!



More constrictions means less time wasted, less effort, less "stupid" questions, better community and better benefit for whom who deserve!



It's not about the resources, if we spend 1,000,000 USD on 12 teams, we can spend half of them on two teams who would make the change in the community! That's it! Less money less teams more benefit!



Discussions are welcomed! Seriously ... Like except for those who would say it's a bad idea! REALLY!



Design it, BUILD IT, RACE IT ... FOR GOD'S SAKE ... FOR GOD'S SAKE RACE IT! It's up there, it's the slogan guys! :D



Egyptians who would disagree can go for the Mini 4WD championship! It's freakn' awesome! Like real awesome! Just Google it! Mini 4WD Japan Cup ;)



All kinds,

Marwan Alabassiry.


Cairo, Egypt.

[Bemo]

Hello Marwan,

I agree with a lot of your observations. The idea behind class 2 was to make it easier to start new teams. But in reality most of the time it is as you describe it. Teams keep stuck in class 2 instead of proceeding to class 1. That's why at Formula Student Germany and Austria (and several others) class 2 doesn't exist.

There are exceptions like the Russian competition which took place for the first time this year. Several teams were started in Russia from scratch and people had never seen an FSAE competition at all. Having class 2 there helped to get the competition to a proper size in the first year.

What would maybe help is to prohibit to take part in class 2 multiple times. It might be helpful one time so the team can get an impression of the competition and some feedback from judges for what they did until then, but in the second year there must be a running car.

About the idea with the interviews with teams I'm not sure wether this is applicable. FSG has already tried to have a process similar. There you have to hand in a video of your driving car a couple of weeks before the competition. But this year this didn't prevent that there were still some very aweful cars which were very far from being in finished condition.

[Luniz]

Hi Marwan,

I really liked the phrase "...for taking selfies at the London Eye..." ;-)

But on a more serious note: Why don't you just jump forward yourself? Enter Class one and build the first real car from your Uni? The first one is probably the hardest, I agree, but someone has to start it, right?

Ditching Class II altogether would not be a good idea I think... Some of the bigger Unis in the UK have two year cycles in their team where they enter class II first and Class I the subsequent year, which kind of makes sense, if the students are willing to stick around the team for two years in a row.

Just my 2ct...

[Meer]

Ditching Class II altogether would not be a good idea I think... Some of the bigger Unis in the UK have two year cycles in their team where they enter class II first and Class I the subsequent year, which kind of makes sense, if the students are willing to stick around the team for two years in a row.



^This.

Also, you do not need 70,000 USD to manufacture an FSAE car.

[Bemo]

Ditching Class II altogether would not be a good idea I think... Some of the bigger Unis in the UK have two year cycles in their team where they enter class II first and Class I the subsequent year, which kind of makes sense, if the students are willing to stick around the team for two years in a row.

Good point. But you could still prohibit to take part in class 2 within two consecutive years to prevent teams to show up year after year and never finishing a car. It is a waste of time for everybody if there is no progress.

[Luniz]

I can't quite remember who it is exactly, but there are a few unis that actually run two teams on a two year cycle besides each other... Bath might be one of them I think.

[Dunk Mckay]

Brunel runs a class 2 team completely separately to it's class 1 team. It's made up of students on the MSc course, only there for one year, which has very different entry requirements than the main BEng/Meng course (I've heard rumours of people getting in on "technicians degrees" from dubious overseas "universities"). Anyhow, being able to give them that to do means the new team managers don't have an unsurmountable number of new inexperienced team members to have to manage. Although it does waste uni budget on crappy materials for crappy cars that never get made, but enough of that.

I agree that class 2 might not serve a huge purpose. But eliminating doesn't either. Having no class 2 won't free up more space for class 1 teams. It's a simple question of track space and time. Other than freeing up more judges and a few volunteers there's little benefit.
It would be good to have some sort of anti-stagnation rule though. For example, you could only enter a class 2 team IF:
-You haven't entered class 2 before.
-You've only entered class 2 once before
-You've entered class 2 more than once before, but not in the last 3 years.
-You've entered class 2 before, but had a class 1 team registered last year or have one registered for the coming year (this allows for teams with both types of two year cycles (whole team or upcoming members).

[Ahmad Rezq]

Welcome my country man,
Yes all the teams in Egypt do nothing rather than traveling to the competition with car pushed by the team members repeating the same process for many years.
new strategy should be developed in order to have teams from Egypt watching their car in the dynamics event.
For sure class 2 is not good for Egyptian teams, and you won't spend 500,000 LE to build a car if you do some engineering, it's really sad to see that Egyptian cars weights without driver are around 280 kg and they are very happy of what they reached. the situation is really sad here in Egypt with all the respect to all people who worked very hard but excuse me they don't do any type of engineering.
Regards

[mech5496]

It mights sound harsh but your inability to move on from class 2 is not a fault of the competition IMO. I know, because we were always a tiny team (8-10 people per year) with small budget, which made things hard as you can imagine. Being small, a 2-year cycle is the only possiblity. I find Class 2 a great way for new inexperienced team members to cut their teeth, gain some valuable experience and even more valuable feedback from the judges; thus when we enter Class 2, every single team member has eyes and ears wide open, trying to absorb as much knowledge and feedback as possible, and transfer it into a competitive car next year. So far, it works great for us!

[Luniz]

Marwan, Ahmad,

what you are doing here is finding false excuses for your lack of performance. Your car isn't good because you couldn't buy that Honda CBR in your country, or because the steel has the wrong spec, or because the competition has a class II or whatever... This is ridiculous! The performance of your cars and teams is at YOUR hands, and no one elses! As long as you fail to accept that, the performance will not increase! Errors are there to be made and to learn from them!

Regards, Luniz

[Ahmad Rezq]

Luniz,
Kindly re-read my comment as i didn't find any type of ((finding excuses)) in the comment I did write yesterday.
Quote me if you find something. Except if your are talking about different person.
Regards, Ahmad

[Ahmad Rezq]

mech5496,
yes you are right but you won't enter class 2 every time yes maybe for the first time or maybe twice per year but at the end you wanna see your car on the track, and i think this is what marwan was trying to say.
Regards

[Jay Lawrence]

Ahmad,

What I think Luniz is trying to say is that you have come on here and talked with disdain about 'they' and 'their' inabilities, without realising that 'they' is actually you!

[onemaniac]

Why the hell you need $70,000 to build a basic FSAE car anyway???
My team spent less than $20,000 for our first car FROM NOTHING (so it includes all the 'standard parts' engine, ecu, dampers, rims, tyres, steering wheel etc)
Our annual budget is just around $11,000 including comp registration.
Sure we get parts and material sponsors here and there but the monetary value does not exceed $6-$7k range.
Even if things cost more in Egypt, $70k sounds ridiculous to me.

[Z]

Onemaniac,

I think the $70k is to fly all Team members to the UK, so they can take "selfies at the London Eye".

In which case I agree with Marwan that the whole exercise is a complete waste of time and money. Unfortunately, I think similar applies to much of Class I!

Z

[Claude Rouelle]

I never have been a Class 2 fan.

Waste of time, waste of opportunity to learn by doing.

FSAE and FS are bout designing AND manufacturing AND testing AND developing AND race cars.

If you do not have enough time and/or money then make it a 2 year project but BUILD and RACE and PROVE something instead of making it A simplistic intellectual exercise

You need to learn how to to put a bit more pressure in your self: except a few rare exceptions, I always have found Class 2 students a bit too relax and not really driven.

[Ahmad Rezq]

Claude Rouelle,
(Y) That's it .

[Lemon Lime]

Luniz, And everyone else here!,

:D

What you're saying is quite similar of having a 12 years old kid, who constantly watches porn! It's not his fault that porn is free and everywhere on the internet! There is no excuse not to watch porn!

Class II is there, and no excuse not to enter Class II, right?!

Why we "Egyptians" go to class II?! That's the question!

We go to Class II for several reasons, well, none of them says "as an excuse for our rubbish performance"! Reason #1: Less number of teams means ability to rank high! "Lying to ourselves" + We don't rank high there too! :D

Reason#2: Procrastination ... ALL OF THE TIME! Well, mainly for bureaucratic reasons.

+ We have high customs fees in Egypt! A Honda CBR600 costs about 10,000$, Dampers cost about 8,000$! Flying tickets for 20 members costs about 10,000$! So that's about 30,000$ and no chassis, tires, rims, seat, body, manufacturing and rent for the workshop! Not to mention the software prices! "Pssst ... WE ONCE USED CRACKED S/W!" ILLEGAL S/W!

We manufacture nothing beneficial to FSAE in Egypt, well, except for the steel tubes and welding! Rest is exported! We're talking like, 70% at least are being exported! And because we order small amount of parts, we have to pay extra for shipping! "More parts means lesser shipping fee per part".

If a 12 years old teen have a great intention of giving up on watching porn, he will eventually! But as long as it's there and he has no great intention, he won't! Best solution as a parent to do is to install an anti-porn SW! Best solution to FSAE is cancelling Class II! Teams who enter Class II makes no progress! It doesn't make sense having a Class II in such "AN EASY" competition! FSAE Teams don't make time traveling machines! It's just a CAR!

And I have a message to all Egyptian teams here, It's not written in the bible that you have to finish the damn car within a year! Take two years to make it as best as possible, at least just when you visit London again you'll find yourself missing the London eye selfie! Please, FOR GOD SAKE!

Thanks for your attention all, Claude, Eric "Z" and Harry!

Best regards everyone,

M.Alabassiry

Cairo, Egypt.

[mech5496]

Marwan,

I know you are trying your best; I know you are sick of Egyptian teams spending a fortune and do nothing but failed Class 2 entries, but still it is not a Class 2 fault! My team is based in Greece; we do not make anything besides tomatoes and feta cheese here. Moreover, import taxes are around 35% of the item value. Still, cost is way lower....Try to find a salvaged bike locally for example, or go for cheaper dampers! You do NOT need fancy Ohlins dampers, you do NOT need an expensive CBR engine to be competitive! Most companies are willing to sponsor you software for free if you ask kindly! Oh, and going in a 2-year cycle splits the project cost in 2 years, making it easier for the Uni as well...

[,4lex S.]

+ We have high customs fees in Egypt! A Honda CBR600 costs about 10,000$, Dampers cost about 8,000$! Flying tickets for 20 members costs about 10,000$! So that's about 30,000$ and no chassis, tires, rims, seat, body, manufacturing and rent for the workshop! Not to mention the software prices! "Pssst ... WE ONCE USED CRACKED S/W!" ILLEGAL S/W!


2 quick points for your consideration:
1) I don't know much about the Egyptian economy, but somebody somewhere must make/recondition an FSAE legal small engine. When we have issues with our CBR, I frequently joke about just installing the Baja engine and running it (little does my team know I am serious...). I was also hunting around Egyptian classifieds and found WAY cheaper 250cc bikes available (full bike...). In terms of dampers, the F500 series runs a number of different polymer puck damper systems which aren't ideal, but they work and are super cheap. If you do some studies in lap time simulation, you should be able to figure out what kind of engine power gets you acceptable performance relative to a typical 4 cyl, but with the added drive time and reliability of a super simple car your drivers may well outclass many of the 4 cyls!

Basically what I am saying is, I feel like a lot of teams from outside of the established countries look to 'good' teams as a model to follow, which from a design point of view is a recipe for disaster. But, if you look at the rules, your local resources, and the performance you want to achieve, you can make a solid car pretty much anywhere (perhaps I will try to prove this someday when I am not doing my MASc).

2) Forgive me if you asked and they didn't help you out, but there is absolutely no excuse for using cracked software in FSAE! Every major company is happy to give out free licenses, or at a heavy discount. It is in their best interest to get us all hooked on their product before we head out into industry as engineers :)

There is so much potential out there. You just need to change your approach to the problem to fit your resources. For inspiration, look at UC Berkley, and Kettering. Teams that do darn well without spending all their money and time making CF monocoques and turbocharged four cylinder rocket ships. It is people who are upset about the status quo who can effect actual change so it is up to you, and not the folks at FSUK.

[Mbirt]

Thanks for the kind words, Alex! Speaking from experience, it's true: 1. Design a simple car. 2. Build the simple car early and build it well (as it is easier to focus on craftsmanship with the simple design). 3. Test the simple, reliable car BEFORE the competition in this convenient gap you've created between finishing the car and competing. 4. Surprise yourself at competition with your best finish in school history because you took the time to train your drivers and fine-tune the car.

[Ahmad Rezq]

What all teams in My lovely Egypt and also considering my team(Jay Lawrence i think you are happy now :D) need to do just one important thing (Engineering) . rather than blaming the fees .

[M. Nader]

I don't think it is right to ban a class based on the incompetence of the Egyptian teams (mine included).
Class 2 is an opportunity for teams with bigger and well thought of plans and if done in a correct way can bring a lot of benefits, It is also an opportunity for teams who have no idea what they are doing and want to know what to do.
Egyptian teams are not doing Class 2 incorrectly, we are doing FSAE incorrectly. and what if class 2 is canceled? i would think you would have more incomplete cars in class 1.

Also in my team (at least when i was in it), we didn't pay for the team members to travel, and what i have learnt in the 3 travelling weeks for the competition equated to more than what i learnt working on FSAE project for two years (and we had a 2 year plan), which in turn equated for much more that what i learnt during my 5 year University degree.

Teams should get to travel and compete. but now Egyptian teams have fell for the same problem that faced the Indian teams sometime ago (and to an extent still does), the teams are stuck and are not getting any better. would banning them from travelling make them better engineers?

and so there is no automotive industry in Egypt, but what does that have to do with giving Engineers a good education? also teams come from similar locations and perform much better.

It should also be mentioned that the Egyptian teams are having considerable success in other competitions such as Shell Eco marathon and the space rover competitions.


How i see it is that, to an extent, the Egyptian teams are somehow doing worse than before in FSAE. Starting up i remember the teams had potential (Alexandria, Helwan, Cairo and Ain shams) but over time that never turned to anything more productive and the quality has just kept getting lower and lower (and it was pretty low to start with)

[M. Nader]

What all teams in My lovely Egypt and also considering my team(Jay Lawrence i think you are happy now :D) need to do just one important thing (Engineering) . rather than blaming the fees .

While Engineering is part of the problem, my opinion is that it is only a very small part, the big problem i think the teams need to focus on is Management and there is plenty of help available but no success yet.


The teams are not having a complete not-so-good car. they don't have a functioning car on time, not even close.

[Ahmad Rezq]

M.Nader,
No wounder Management is important let me quote form Claude Rouelle "Not About Designing A Good Car It's About Designing Good Team" both Engineering and Project Management will lead you to success in FSAE.
Regards.