Land and Sea 9" water brake Dyno

[Spearchucker]

We are currently in the process of preparing for a purchase of Land and Sea Dynomite Dyno (snowmobile model) to use as an engine dyno for our CBR600RR motor. Is anyone using this setup? We are having difficulties figuring out the interface between the motor and dyno rotor. If anyone can help with some information on what sort of shaft they used or some pictures of the dyno setup we would be very grateful.

[Spearchucker]

We are currently in the process of preparing for a purchase of Land and Sea Dynomite Dyno (snowmobile model) to use as an engine dyno for our CBR600RR motor. Is anyone using this setup? We are having difficulties figuring out the interface between the motor and dyno rotor. If anyone can help with some information on what sort of shaft they used or some pictures of the dyno setup we would be very grateful.

[Mikey Antonakakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spearchucker:
We are currently in the process of preparing for a purchase of Land and Sea Dynomite Dyno (snowmobile model) to use as an engine dyno for our CBR600RR motor. Is anyone using this setup? We are having difficulties figuring out the interface between the motor and dyno rotor. If anyone can help with some information on what sort of shaft they used or some pictures of the dyno setup we would be very grateful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't have pictures yet, but it's probably easiest to go with a chain drive.

[Seeger]

we welded a shaft onto a sprocket, then keyed a love-joy onto the shaft, then attached the other half of the love-joy to the dyno input shaft

[Whis]

Yep.

Thats what ours is. Big ol hunk of 1.5 inch steel, chuck it in a lathe, machine the taper into it keyway it. Bore a hold, thread it, bolt it onto your dyno. Then we attached a sprocket to it. We actually used 2 12.9 grade hex head bolts to make it removable. The whole thing rides on pillow blocks. They aren't really rated for what we are making them do, but they are 1.5 inch ID and seem to be overbuilt. Least, they worked so far. We're actually in the process of rebuilding it. I'll post pictures when I get them.

Whis

[t21jj]

This was the dyno setup back in 2007 when we still ran the 4 cylinder. I don't have a photo of the shaft.
http://www.sae.stuorg.iastate.edu/zenphoto/zp-core/i.php?a=formula%2F2006-2007-formula&i=IMG_1273.jpg&s=595

[Beaudry]

I have to say the land and sea water brake is an piece of garbage. They work great for the first 2-3 years, but our team has since gone through 2 of them. The seals are continually getting blown and we can't get enough load even with our engine in 6th gear. The 7" Land and Sea waterbrake we own is just as much of a piece of junk. We are switching to an eddy current dyno this year.

As for our setup, its the same as what Whis described.

[VFR750R]

Cornell has had a land and sea since 2003. I highly recommend NOT using a chain. They are hard to keep lubed and cool, they wear out much faster then a u-jointed shaft, they spray chain lube all over, we had one break and do some serious damage, and it caused repeatability issues.

I recommend instead to use a short driveshaft, which you can have made or perhaps steal from a 4 wheel drive vehicle out of a junkyard. If you find something with the yokes you want you can have a driveshaft shop shorten it if that would be helpful for your packaging. A simple way to couple the driveshaft to the output shaft is to weld an old sprocket to the yoke. If you can mount your engine very rigidly and precisely you can use a shaft with no 'joints', but has low bending stiffness so as to allow for some mild misalignment but stiff enough to not get into a whipping condition at high speed(this is expert level mounting). You could also make up your own shaft using flex plate drives, or BMW rubber flexible joints. Just about every professional sold dyno (and every nascar dyno) has a plain looking driveshaft with u-joints. Million dollar AVL dynos use small diameter shafts with no u-joints.

U-joint driveshafts are used for everything under the sun, so there should be a size to match your requirements. Full size car u-joints are overkill, and will only make finding yokes to fit harder, and harder to package. DO use a driveshaft shield, out of steel, with at least .095 wall (preferably more). I've had a driveshaft break at work and we luckily had a good shield and no damage was done.

A quality CV joint could also be used, if it can handle the torque and RPM you will subject it too. A honda CRV rear half shaft comes to mind as a candidate, I'm sure there are a thousand front wheel drive half shafts you could also use.

For either, make sure you build in some misalignment on purpose to keep the needles rotating in the u-joints and balls moving in the tripod. If not, you'll hammer on the same ones, and push all the lube away from those and have premature failure. On our cup dynos we use 1" offset on a 28" long shaft (we keep the engine and dyno centerlines parallel though) and have never failed a u-joint.

The reason for the internal taper is to fit snowmobile crankshafts directly. We did as advised above and made a shaft to match the brakes dimensions.

[Mikey Antonakakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">R </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
VFR,
Where are you sourcing these u-joints? We had trouble finding anything that can handle the speed and torque we'd be seeing.

[VFR750R]

I'm not sure what your RPM requirements will be, but torque should never be a problem.
Our dyno shafts can handle 5-8 times the torque you're likely to generate and still turn 10,000rpm. I'm sure you can run smaller then that. I'm not sure what the number is for our joints, but dynotech will know. It's pretty standard for all the cars.

Also, to be clear, I'd only recommend running 6th gear for a land and sea brake. The lower gears are a combination of too low RPM and too high torque. The brake won't be able to physically hold the engine back, and it will run hot. NA you might be able to run in 4th or 5th. Turbo engines unfortunately are 6th only.


http://www.dynotechengineering.com/

They supply driveshafts to several nascar (if not all nascar) teams for the cars, and we also use them for our dynos.

Not cheap, but reasonable, and maybe they'd work with you. And certainly you could talk to them and get an idea of what size u-joints are necessary and what kinds of connections are available in that size (slip yokes, 4 bolt etc.)

[Spearchucker]

Thanks for all the help so far guys. In regards to the input shaft, from what the Land and Sea representative told me, they do not condone using any sort of chain drive system. They also said that the would sell us a shaft already machined to the taper fit in the rotor for around $1000.00. It would then be up to us to machine the other end to fit to the motor. If anyone has pictures of a solid shaft setup (no chain drive) that would be very helpful. Another issue we are having is finding a pump for the water supply. Land and Sea said it needs 10 gallons per minute at 30-60psi (based on an estimated 120 max hp from the motor). What kind of pumps are you guys using? We have found it difficult to find a pump with these specs that doesn't require some sort of pressure regulator in-line. Thanks again for all the help so far.

[consig]

We use a shaft from MSI from their ISOtec driveshaft line. It has a rubber damping element and Spicer driveshaft ends. We have an adapter for our engine from Hawk Machine Products used for sprint cars that adapts to the Spicer ends.

http://www.machineservice.com/...tec-drive-shafts.htm (http://www.machineservice.com/iso-tec-drive-shafts.htm)

http://peterdmotorsports.com/p...h=28&products_id=170 (http://peterdmotorsports.com/parts-db/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=170)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/bigbrotherjohn/DSCF0978.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/bigbrotherjohn/CIMG2320.jpg

[VFR750R]

We've been able to successfully use city water to supply the dyno. If that is not an option, I'd check centrifugal pumps in mcmaster or grainger that meet your requirements.

It's never good to stall a water pump, but a bypass line that bleeds some water off when the brake isn't using any could work. You'll have to play with the bypass line size (which wont' have to be very large), and you should start with a pump slightly larger then required because you'll always be bypassing. Obviously a pressure relief valve is optimal.

Once you've done that, you can look at water tanks and coolers to circulate your water through. A 55 gallon drum and a welder could make you a nice tank. I'd run a separate pump through a radiator with a fan on it to cool the tank water. You could also use that tank and your primary pump to run water through a heat exchanger.

I'm assuming you've already read all the other 'dyno' threads on FSAE. If not, I suggest you search through them, there is a lot written on dyno systems.

[VFR750R]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spearchucker:
They also said that the would sell us a shaft already machined to the taper fit in the rotor for around $1000.00. It would then be up to us to machine the other end to fit to the motor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get some 4340 and machine it. Start with large enough stock to leave a flange to bolt to with whatever driveshaft etc. you decide on.
PS. Most drive flanges like that use a step to keep the mating parts concentric, don't rely on bolt holes.

[jpusb]

hey T21JJ and VFR750R I have a couple questions for you.

How do you guys control engine speed and how stable is it? Cause I see in the picture T21JJ posted, they use some kind of manual valve, doesn't it get really really messy to control engine speed manually?

VFR750R I will have to look up those dyno posts since I haven't really got time to do so, thanks for the advice.

[Guillaume Villeneuve]

Here at Université du Québec à Chicoutimi, we're using a 80FI Yamaha Phazer motor. The water brake just fits bolt on with the taper lock of the motor, so no adapter needed.

About the speed, we've got the automatic valve from Land & Sea with their pro software. You can then set a fixed RPM and it's stable, even if the PID loop is quite slow. An effy current dyno would be a lot faster to respond, but would be a lot more expensive.

Guillaume Villeneuve
Président Formule SAE UQAC

[t21jj]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jpusb:
hey T21JJ and VFR750R I have a couple questions for you.

How do you guys control engine speed and how stable is it? Cause I see in the picture T21JJ posted, they use some kind of manual valve, doesn't it get really really messy to control engine speed manually?

VFR750R I will have to look up those dyno posts since I haven't really got time to do so, thanks for the advice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes we use a manual load control valve and it is slow and tedious but gets the job done.

I've attached a photo of the valve and computer station, yes it is a bit of a mess but it's the only photo I have of it.
http://www.sae.stuorg.iastate.edu/zenphoto/zp-core/i.php?a=formula%2Fchassis%2Faround-the-shop&i=IMG_1599.JPG&s=595

[VFR750R]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jpusb:
hey T21JJ and VFR750R I have a couple questions for you.

How do you guys control engine speed and how stable is it? Cause I see in the picture T21JJ posted, they use some kind of manual valve, doesn't it get really really messy to control engine speed manually?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd get the automatic valve. It works pretty nice, even on a turbo engine. We got both, but only ever used the auto version. It will allow you to program sweep tests and stuff as well. We had an older water brake before the land and sea and it only had manual control, and it was very difficult to control and get repeatible results. I also recommend doing both step tests and sweep tests, and you'll need to do both to calibrate your fuel curves.

The valve you see in T21JJ's picture is an outlet valve. Different kinds of engines want different amounts of backpressure in the brake to get good resolution out of the inlet valve. You can't see which inlet valve he has in that picture.

[Spearchucker]

Thanks again for all the help guys. I think we are going to try the driveshaft adapter that CONSIG posted a link for. Im curious though as to how this adapter is held on the shaft. Does it just rely on a good fit between the driveshaft length and the dyno? Im assuming it slids onto the splined shaft relatively easily. Thanks for all the pictures as well they are very helpful.

[consig]

The driveshaft adapter from hawk racing fits over the splines on the output shaft, it is available for many different popular 4cyl sport bike engines. The nut that is normally used to retain the sprocket can be used to hold the adapter on but it might have to be put on the lathe first to make it low profile. Or you could probably just order low profile locking nuts from McMaster or wherever, but definitely don't run the driveshaft adapter without bolting it on.

You might want to check out peterdmotorsports.com for the adapter, and maybe other useful stuff.

http://peterdmotorsports.com/p...h=28&products_id=170 (http://peterdmotorsports.com/parts-db/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=170)