2014 FSAE Michigan

[mech5496]

As the competition is about to begin, would be nice to have a place to post links/updates/photos/stories. Will there be any live streaming available? Any lists to follow? Keep it coming guys!

[Mbirt]

Thanks for kicking the thread off, Harry.

Is there a 2014 Program Event Guide to be found anywhere? The 2013 guide is still linked here: http://students.sae.org/cds/formulaseries/fsae/

Twitter, https://twitter.com/search?q=%23FSAEmichigan&src=hash, hasn't been all that exciting today. The only substantial news I've seen is that McGill has cancelled their trip. Let's keep the news flowing!

[mdavis]

Cincinnati posted this on their facebook page yesterday:

"We here at BCMS regret to inform everyone that the team will not be competing in this years Michigan Formula SAE competition. Due to last minute complications with the car we determined that we cannot bring a competitive vehicle to the contest are thus officially withdrawing and focusing on getting next years team a jump start.

We would like to thank everyone that has supported us thus far and all of our sponsors that help make this great organization run.

We look forward to next year!"

-Matt

[Dash]

Hey guys, Mississippi State University is here! Unfortunately I forgot our driver suits at home! I am having them overnighted to our hotel, but I would like to ask if anyone would let us borrow one for the take a number tech tomorrow?

If you can, please call / text Dash Robinson (team captain) at 601-497-5583 in the morning.

Thanks for any help you can give!

[Mumpitz]

As a first year FSAE alum after 5 cars I find myself twitching into comp mode at my desk. My chair is never going to make it through tilt table and I can't see the fasteners on my desk to verify two threads or safety wire. Oh man Claude is going to drag me over the coals for not having a lap time simulation on for my shoe choice... I may have to zip tie up all the cables at my desk just for old times sake.
Best of luck to everybody out there!

[Mbirt]

I'm with you John! This is the first Thursday morning in 5 years that I haven't had to carry that 8 mm wrench in my pocket to remove the throttle for a restrictor check. This cubicle is missing the sound of Mitsuba starters having the epoxy burned from their armatures as teams mercilessly crank their engines on a cold, wet morning.

[GianVioli]

For the past couple of years (ever since I stop attending the Michigan Competition) I've develop a Twitter list with most of the teams official twitters account and some other important personalities in the F-SAE/FS enviroment (such as Tobias Michaels).

You can find said list here:

https://twitter.com/gfvioli/lists/f-sae

[Alumni]

Has it stopped raining yet?

[Michael Jones]

Been dormant for a bit - was doing research on FSAE a while back, got derailed for a host of reasons, some of my own creation, many because you should never, ever do doctoral research in a toxic environment. Cornell Racing is an exemplary organization - my home department at that institution, not so much. There are some seriously nasty people there.

So, returned home, got a real job, and hit the grand reset button to try the whole PhD again with a far better support structure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vimZj8HW0Kg&feature=kp

As LL puts it, don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years. Within a couple of weeks of FSAE.com starting up, if I remember ancient history right.

Looking forward to hanging out again, learning about how the series has changed, and talking to people about information and knowledge management challenges in the peculiar space that is FSAE.


Will be posting some questions here on this forum when the new ethics forms get approved, but you're free to read the study rationale and sign up for updates at http://www.yafle.ca/fsae. Will be equally interested in talking to alumni, faculty advisors and competition judges/officials as well as current team members/leaders.

Will be handing out networking cards to anyone who's willing to talk tomorrow and Saturday, as well as dropping by Lincoln in June. Happy to chat via email, Skype, smoke signals or passenger pigeon as well.

[Sormaz]

anyone know if there is live audio of autocross?

[GianVioli]

I've been looking for it too.. best thing I've been able to find is this:

http://sololive.scca.com/FSAE/autox/FSAE.html

I'm not sure it's working though

[SomeOldGuy]

The Autocross results are displaying on the Acceleration section.

http://sololive.scca.com/FSAE/accel/FSAE.html

Well now they"fixed" it so now no autocross updates.

Now it is running in the autocross section linked in the above post.

[mech5496]

Cool find OldGuy! Thanks!

[RiNaZ]

where do i go to see the overall result?

[Mbirt]

Alright! Competition has passed, so let's get this discussion rolling.

Who's got the scoop on ETS and their switch to the SA 250? Their story should be fairly public since they were the winning design finalist. Any word on how they plan to overcome a ~50 pt drop in accel score from the engine change alone?

[VFR750R]

This forum has been quite dead during comp this year. Normally there would be 7 or 8 pages by Saturday night.

The results are posted on sae.org under news

[RiNaZ]

i wonder if everybody is posting all the update on fb or twitter. im not twitter savvy so not sure how i can go read any update.

i've lost touch with fsae for a couple of years now, so i decided to go to the competition this year in michigan. I was totally impressed with what i saw and the level of details these teams came up with. And i saw a lot of participation from the industry. Very impressive, much different than what i remember from my last entry in 2002. But i do feel the atmosphere back then was more personal and more graasroot.

anyways, good job to all the participants!

[Kevin Hayward]

Well done GFR, going by the results it looks like it was well contested, but the GFR car had the edge in most events.

I am interested to hear whether there is a gap building between Europe and the US when it comes to the approach to the competition. Of the design finalists only one was a non north-American team (Karlsruhe Institute of Technology). Out of the top 4 of the competition there were 3 non-American teams that didn't make design finals.

For those that are competing is this a case of those teams just not presenting well in design, or do you believe the US judges are looking for something different to those in Europe?

Kev

[Pat Clarke]

Kevin,
I had a long phone discussion with Steve Fox this morning about this exact subject (amongst other things).
Let me just say, I prefer how it happens in Germany :-)

Pat

[JulianH]

Kevin, I think there are several factors, why Design and Overall ended this way.

- European teams travel with much smaller teams overseas, compared to the European events. Often, at least one major part of the car seems to be not "covered" by the responsible guy. Should reduce Design Score. NA teams don't have that issue.
- The 2013 season of european cars was not that good in Design. In Germany, Karlsruhe won (very good in Michigan too), but Hamburg and Graz placed 8th, Stuttgart 13th, Munich 17th. NA teams (Akron, McGill, ETS placed 2nd-4th).
- There is probably a little "home field advantage": GFR won Design in 2012 at Michigan and got "killed" in Europe (according to Dr. Paasch with the same Design team): 17th in Germany (95points), 21st in Austria (90 points). I don't know if this is due to "home field" or due to "US judges want to see something different". Maybe a bit of both.
- The better overall result compared to Design is probably due to the fact that the European cars are approx. 1 year old, are tested really good and a lot of stuff has already broken. So the finishing rate is normally better compared to NA cars.
- The European teams that travel overseas are normally the "big teams" with 4cyl (or 2cyl turbo..), CFRP monocoque, wings and all crazy features. If the US judges don't like that, than all are "screwed" a bit. Maybe a different "style" of European team would have scored differently.

Let's see what the Us-experienced teams are going to say about this...

Julian

[Kevin Hayward]

Julian,

You have made some good points to think about. The GFR results in Europe are interesting. I had a discussion with a design judge (US based) who mentioned that in his opinion GFR were leagues ahead of any of the teams he had seen with respect to their design knowledge and presentation. This was in the 2012 season.

Your last point points out something I hadn't noticed in my initial observation. There definitely appears to be a slight bias towards the smaller engined cars, largely due to the lower mass that entails. I think the main issue is that their doesn't seem to be too much of a problem for the judges if a single cylinder car is in a range of around 20kg (say 140-160kg for a non-winged car) yet if a four is not one of the lowest mass fours it doesn't seem to get a look-in.

I am always interested to see whether how well the design judges predict the overall performance of the vehicles (over time). For example if they have a bias towards the smaller engined cars and the bigger engine cars have conisistent superior performance I would call that an unfair bias. However if the reverse is true then it highlights their accuracy.

Regardless, apart from an anomolly with the non-NA teams it looks like the design scores correlate pretty well on performance. It does highlight again that the judges are paying less attention to reliability than they used to. The top 3 design results went to teams that did not complete endurance. This is similar to recent years in the US and sends a strong message to teams that a good design event score is not contingent on being able to finish all events. Given that a good design event finish is crucial to a good event finish (unless all the top design points scorers fail to complete endurance) it indicates that teams should be less conservative and reliability focused with their designs if they are chasing a win in the US.

Kev

[flavorPacket]

Having competed and judged in both the US and Germany, I have not seen an appreciable difference in what the judges are looking for between these two competitions (but I am only one data point). I have, however, seen a big difference at the UK competition.

Also, I have NEVER been part of a design judging team where a judge's personal preference affected the final scores. The scores come from the composite opinions of many judges, so personal preferences get filtered out. And let me assure you that the judges have many different ideas of what the best car might be!

[theTTshark]

- The European teams that travel overseas are normally the "big teams" with 4cyl (or 2cyl turbo..), CFRP monocoque, wings and all crazy features. If the US judges don't like that, than all are "screwed" a bit. Maybe a different "style" of European team would have scored differently.


If there is a bias against this, it isn't just them. Remember it was mostly American teams (plus Monash) that pioneered the concept up to 2010-2011. If anything people are more open to the concepts now because "the Germans are doing it, so it must be good" mentality.

[Crispy]

I am interested to hear whether there is a gap building between Europe and the US when it comes to the approach to the competition. Of the design finalists only one was a non north-American team (Karlsruhe Institute of Technology). Out of the top 4 of the competition there were 3 non-American teams that didn't make design finals.

For those that are competing is this a case of those teams just not presenting well in design, or do you believe the US judges are looking for something different to those in Europe?

Are the results of one year that big of a deal? The Europeans have been doing quite well at the MIS design events for some time. You might even say dominating. I think it is a bit of a stretch to see a trend from one years results (unless there was a big shake up in organizers/judges). Same with the failure rates, I think it is likely that we are discussing noise...

MIS top 5 in design (GFR omitted)
2014: ETS, Karlsruhe, Wisconsin Madison, Ohio
2013: Talin, Stuttgart, Wisconsin Madison, TUGraz
2012: Karlsruhe, Stuttgart, ETS, Munich, TUGraz
2011: TUGraz, Stuttgart, Munich, RIT
2010: ETS, TUGraz, (11 teams tied for 4th)

Other than the top spot, North America was well represented at FSG last year.
FSG top 5 in design
2013: Karlsruhe, ETS, Akron, RIT, Montréal U McGill

Wouldn't it be crazy if each continent turned out to have a reverse bias! :p

[RiNaZ]

do you guys post pictures of the competition on your fb now? nothing on public space where i can view them?

[Z]

I, too, would have liked to see a lot more details of the cars. Even just the usual photo lists. Anyone...???

One thing that stands out from the results sheets (IMO) is that Acceleration and Skid-Pad times seemed rather slow. Nowhere near the records. It didn't seem to be raining, so was it a particularly low-grip surface?

Z

[TMichaels]

If there is a bias against this, it isn't just them. Remember it was mostly American teams (plus Monash) that pioneered the concept up to 2010-2011. If anything people are more open to the concepts now because "the Germans are doing it, so it must be good" mentality.
I have not followed FS prior 2005, but I remember the 2005 TU Graz car with CFRP monocoque, aero, 4 banger and lots of sophisticated designs and electronics to be one of the pioneers of the complicated concepts. I could be impaired by the small size of my own bubble during this year, though.

We need an online FS/FSAE car museum including stats which could be taken from the WRL!

[Crispy]

do you guys post pictures of the competition on your fb now? nothing on public space where i can view them?
If that was aimed at me, I am graduated and missing the pictures as much as you (maybe more?). I'm guessing the bulk of the team is still crammed in a van on their way home, so hopefully in a few days there will be more pictures available.

[Bemo]

According design results I think you have multiple effects which partly contradict each other. If a team participates in an overseas competition their car is usually older than the local cars. Especially European teams often use the time between the last European comp to MIS to develop "evo kits" for their cars. It is not surprising that teams who had more time to collect data and experience with their car (and to sort out design errors) do better in design as local teams. A disadvantage might be that you normally have less team members with you at an overseas comp but I believe this is a minor effect. In my experience (I took part in ten competitions in five countries on three continents) it does vary between competitions what judges focus on and how the event is organised. Therefore you can also expect some variance in the results of a team which takes parts in a couple of competitions.

As someone said before I wouldn't try to read a trend out of the result of one single competition. As it was shown during the last years European teams often scored better at MIS than at FSG or FS UK.

[RagingGrandpa]

One thing that stands out from the results sheets (IMO) is that Acceleration and Skid-Pad times seemed rather slow. Nowhere near the records. It didn't seem to be raining, so was it a particularly low-grip surface?Smooth asphalt, dusty, partly cloudy, cold. Surface estimated +3 °C, ambient started at 4 and rose to about +8 °C Friday morning.

[IronMike]

Here are some pictures from the endurance event courtesy of RacingManiac

https://plus.google.com/photos/104102302644408236956/albums/6014619947693616241

[Kevin Hayward]

Chris,

Given the past results you posted it looks like it was just discussing noise, and most likely those particular teams just did not present as well as they needed. I also omitted a 3rd possibility in that the North American teams may have substantially improved in design. It wouldn't be unexpected to see a team start to do well in design before they are able to fight for a win on track. Again for those that were there; how did the NA cars rate compared to the top level European cars in both design and build quality?

Also how was the quality of these cars when compared to last years?

Great to see some photos. Wings sprouting up everywhere, and quite a variety in approach to the aero. I know it is off topic, but I hope those aero rules changes don't come in. I would love to see what ends up coming out on top with the current rule set. Seems to be a difference in opinion on COG height vs downforce, downforce vs added weight, downforce vs drag (ie fuel economy) that is quite apparent in the aero packages. For instance I look at Stuttgart's and think that maybe they are not being aggressive enough, but on the other side Michigan looks like it may have reached a point of diminishing returns. At least it doesn't look like everyone copying some accepted standard.

Kev

[floRACEca]

Here are photos from Day 3 of competition.

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjYdEHvd

Day 4 photos will be out shortly. Feel free to share the link with anyone that may be interested in viewing.

[hughm]

Kev, the Stuttgart car that runs in Michigan is always their previous year car, so it is lacking in the updated aero. Their new car has a somewhat more aggressive aero kit, see http://on.fb.me/TvZone.

[floRACEca]

Here are photos from Day 4 - Endurance:

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjXFr6Pu

[Trevor]

Thanks for sharing these photos Randy, there are a lot of great shots there!

[theTTshark]

Randy, as always great shots of all the cars!

[Z]

Flo/Randy,

Thanks! Those should get me through the weekend just fine... :)

Z

[floRACEca]

Thanks for the comments.

Please shoot me an email if you'd like high res / raw files of certain shots.

Randyfloresca@gmail.com

[Cunningham]

Thanks Randy. Great shots!

[Swiftus]

Hi all. My name is Jay Swift and I am a mechanical engineering student at Oregon State University on GFR.

I would have posted earlier but it took a little time to get myself fully approved to post.

For those of you who aren't followers of facebook, I posted a video of our car driven by each driver on the autocross course at Michigan. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=745734122145582