New team, No experience. Guess who's on the suspension?

[Nuclear_Hobo]

And while I love it, as a freshman it's stressful. I have next to no experience with acquiring parts and such, in addition to the fact that I have minimum CAD experience. For the most part, I have found parts, but I can't seem to find a good place to search for hubs. All I've found is pretty much go-karting stuff, and I don't want to use those unless I have to. Does anybody have a good source for hubs and related parts?

[xander18]

We make our hubs, pretty much always have. What's your budget? Taylor Race (http://www.taylor-race.com/) will be a valuable supplier and I think they sell an off the shelf hub assembly designed for FSAE.

[Nuclear_Hobo]

Total budget is $10000 or so this year, we're shooting to be rolling this year and racing next year. We're already doing uprights, bell cranks, and tie rods in house, with rod ends, shocks, bearings and bushings aftermarket. We've got about 4 grand towards a totally functional suspension, hub, wheel, tire, and steering setup. Is this reasonable?

[Pat Clarke]

Atomic-Tramp,
It is considered good manners to introduce yourself and your team before asking for help.
Otherwise you risk the wrath of the forum members.

Pat

[mdavis]

Total budget is $10000 or so this year, we're shooting to be rolling this year and racing next year. We're already doing uprights, bell cranks, and tie rods in house, with rod ends, shocks, bearings and bushings aftermarket. We've got about 4 grand towards a totally functional suspension, hub, wheel, tire, and steering setup. Is this reasonable?

I can see a pretty easy way to make your money go further. You can reduce the number of parts you have to make in house, and the number of sphericals/rod ends you would have to buy. When you answer Pat's question, you'll get more insight.

-Matt

[Nuclear_Hobo]

Ah, sorry. I was unaware of the etiquette. I am Nick, and I'm representing VMW (Valparaiso Motor Works) from Valparaiso University. Nuclear_Hobo is an inside joke that got carried over into real life somehow. Though I suppose I deserved the Atomic-Tramp remark.


I can see a pretty easy way to make your money go further. You can reduce the number of parts you have to make in house, and the number of sphericals/rod ends you would have to buy. When you answer Pat's question, you'll get more insight.

-Matt

So what you're saying is we should buy most everything? Pardon me if I come off green, but wouldn't that cost more than doing them in house?

[jd74914]

Ah, sorry. I was unaware of the etiquette. I am Nick, and I'm representing VMW (Valparaiso Motor Works) from Valparaiso University. Nuclear_Hobo is an inside joke that got carried over into real life somehow. Though I suppose I deserved the Atomic-Tramp remark.



So what you're saying is we should buy most everything? Pardon me if I come off green, but wouldn't that cost more than doing them in house?

You are correct; buying would cost more. What you want to try doing is finding some sponsors who will donate materials and manufacturing time. Just to give you an example, one of our sponsors is a foundry who will cast parts for free. We use them to cast our uprights and a few other components to save the cost and machining time of starting from a billet. We have similar deals with other machining sponsors who buy then machine billets for hubs, etc. In addition to the cost/time benefits, interfacing with sponsors is good experience for future industry positions.

[mdavis]

Ah, sorry. I was unaware of the etiquette. I am Nick, and I'm representing VMW (Valparaiso Motor Works) from Valparaiso University. Nuclear_Hobo is an inside joke that got carried over into real life somehow. Though I suppose I deserved the Atomic-Tramp remark.

So what you're saying is we should buy most everything? Pardon me if I come off green, but wouldn't that cost more than doing them in house?

I'm saying you should play to your strengths. If your team has lot of money, but no internal manufacturing capability, then buying parts makes sense. If you have 12 CNC machines and 24 hour access to them and no money, then making parts in house makes sense. The way I look at things, you can very easily change your vehicle design to use the assets that you have at your disposal, rather than trying to stretch your money extremely thin buying unnecessary parts.

If I read your post correctly, you are buying sphericals and rod ends. Are you getting the things you listed as "aftermarket" donated? Or do those need to be factored into your purchased components as well?

The big (potentially expensive) part on that list is dampers, and if you're going to have a year of driving/testing, tires could get quite expensive as well. The dampers don't have to be expensive, but they could be.

The steering portion can be as cheap or expensive as you want, really. Again, you will have to make some design decisions that may not be "mainstream" in order to make the steering extremely cheap, but it is possible.

Wheels are another product that you can spend as much or little money on as you want. If you're running 13's, some old steel wheels off of a Honda civic/etc. can be had for extremely cheap or you could go Joengblood, which is around $1k per set (I'm going off of what I heard, so that price may be old). For 10's, there are extremely cheap ($65 each) and extremely lightweight (~3lbs per corner) options out there (and they're stiffer than the Keizer alternative), if you look hard enough. It all depends on what your vehicle concept is.

-Matt

[Nuclear_Hobo]

I'm saying you should play to your strengths. If your team has lot of money, but no internal manufacturing capability, then buying parts makes sense. If you have 12 CNC machines and 24 hour access to them and no money, then making parts in house makes sense. The way I look at things, you can very easily change your vehicle design to use the assets that you have at your disposal, rather than trying to stretch your money extremely thin buying unnecessary parts.

If I read your post correctly, you are buying sphericals and rod ends. Are you getting the things you listed as "aftermarket" donated? Or do those need to be factored into your purchased components as well?

The big (potentially expensive) part on that list is dampers, and if you're going to have a year of driving/testing, tires could get quite expensive as well. The dampers don't have to be expensive, but they could be.

The steering portion can be as cheap or expensive as you want, really. Again, you will have to make some design decisions that may not be "mainstream" in order to make the steering extremely cheap, but it is possible.

Wheels are another product that you can spend as much or little money on as you want. If you're running 13's, some old steel wheels off of a Honda civic/etc. can be had for extremely cheap or you could go Joengblood, which is around $1k per set (I'm going off of what I heard, so that price may be old). For 10's, there are extremely cheap ($65 each) and extremely lightweight (~3lbs per corner) options out there (and they're stiffer than the Keizer alternative), if you look hard enough. It all depends on what your vehicle concept is.

-Matt
We are buying sphericals, rod ends, bushings, and shocks for sure out of the budget. Being very small and untested, we've had ill luck with sponsorship outside of some of our member's family pitching in some cash. The bearings and shocks are expected to be the majority of our costs, especially the shocks. We've debated using rubber bushings for the bell cranks to save a few dollars. With the pushrod suspension we're planning we could pick up almost any set of dampers/springs we can find cheap, that would however greatly limit our potential on the track for the cheapest end. As far as our manufacturing is concerned, we've got limited facilities. We do have CNC and some other facilities in house, but nothing to write home about.

Our main goal is to be rolling this year, so we're only picking up one set of tires to save the money for more critical elements. I'll pitch the Civic wheel idea to the rest of the team, the cost factor might greatly impact our decision. It would make integrating outboard brakes very easy and much cheaper.

Steering will probably be incredibly cheap, however that's not my group's responsibility. My main concern is the rear end, with wheels and tires coming later.

I should also mention that we're interested specifically in formula-hybrid. Don't ask me why we chose to make that particular jump, that was the plan when we joined. We won't be fast or light when we hit the track (we're looking at a 700+ lb race ready vehicle) so old steel rims won't hurt us much more than anything else. More than performance, we wanted a vehicle that could at least roll onto the track legally for the 2015 season. We're just hoping the rules don't change too much in between seasons to totally nullify something we've done.

[mdavis]

We are buying sphericals, rod ends, bushings, and shocks for sure out of the budget. Being very small and untested, we've had ill luck with sponsorship outside of some of our member's family pitching in some cash. The bearings and shocks are expected to be the majority of our costs, especially the shocks. We've debated using rubber bushings for the bell cranks to save a few dollars. With the pushrod suspension we're planning we could pick up almost any set of dampers/springs we can find cheap, that would however greatly limit our potential on the track for the cheapest end. As far as our manufacturing is concerned, we've got limited facilities. We do have CNC and some other facilities in house, but nothing to write home about.

Our main goal is to be rolling this year, so we're only picking up one set of tires to save the money for more critical elements. I'll pitch the Civic wheel idea to the rest of the team, the cost factor might greatly impact our decision. It would make integrating outboard brakes very easy and much cheaper.

Steering will probably be incredibly cheap, however that's not my group's responsibility. My main concern is the rear end, with wheels and tires coming later.

I should also mention that we're interested specifically in formula-hybrid. Don't ask me why we chose to make that particular jump, that was the plan when we joined. We won't be fast or light when we hit the track (we're looking at a 700+ lb race ready vehicle) so old steel rims won't hurt us much more than anything else. More than performance, we wanted a vehicle that could at least roll onto the track legally for the 2015 season. We're just hoping the rules don't change too much in between seasons to totally nullify something we've done.

Why do you need bellcranks? If you don't have bellcranks, you don't have to compromise on rubber bushings to save cost. Start with the minimum required number of parts, figure out how much they're going to cost, then see what other nice stuff you can afford.

The dampers also don't have to be expensive, if you are creative with sourcing. I just looked and found adjustable dampers for $30 that would work, even if your car is 700lbs (this seems like an absurdly heavy weight, but I don't know much about current Hybrid cars). To quote Claude, the lighter your car is, the lighter it can be. And conversely, the heavier it is, the heavier it has to be.

Bearings and sphericals you can get both donated from several companies. You have to take the first step, but it is possible.

With your 2 year schedule, if you build this year, getting lighter wheels next year should be easier, since you'll have a lot more budget, and a car to show off to possible sponsors.

-Matt

[Nuclear_Hobo]

700 lbs is slightly absurd, but so is our design. It was a ballpark figure given to us to design around, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out much lighter. It should get lightened a bit next year and much more the year after.

With our wishbone/tie rod setup we are having a very hard time sourcing a long enough shock to reach a reasonable distance to the upright. We're leery of mounting to the top wishbone, though it's in consideration as well. Then again we might just be looking in the wrong places. One more side effect of being a virgin organization.

[Jay Lawrence]

Doesn't sound like you've done too much research in regards to prior art. Have a good look at what's around and a good read of some threads (particularly Z's posts about what a car doesn't need) and other sources (e.g. like Pat's Corner on the FSG website). Not sure when the next FSAE/FS comp is on but I suggest you go to it and immerse yourself.