Question about multiple teams

[lackmaster]

Hello everyone,
I am a student at Tennessee Tech University and recently we had some issues with our team. Over 2/3 of the members, including myself, from the previous years team were either ran off or flat out suspended from the team.
Keeping this in mind, I was curious if there was any rule keeping the members that were kicked off from competing with a second car from the same university. Now we would be under a different name and adviser just the same university and we understand that we would also have to have a separate entry fee as we would be a separate entity. From the research that I have done, no rule talks about having more than one team at the university other than the Article that mentions EV and IC teams. I don't know if that applies since we would be an IC team as well.
Any feedback is welcome. Thanks!
-Lackmaster

[Claude Rouelle]

1 question. 1 suggestion. 1 comment
- Kicked off by who? Why? You mat want to solve this first.
- If the first car was an internal combustion car then make an electric or vice versa.
- A uni is uni. Starting with 2 teams from the same ini because there was some sort of ...what...disagreement..? is not a good beginning. I hope the main goal is not to show "the others" that you can do at least as well; if that is your main motivation I doubt about the success of the enterprise. That would not be in the FSAE spirit either. In Formula One your worst compettitor is your team mate, but please this is not Formula One.

[lackmaster]

Thanks for responding,
We were kicked by our adviser and current president of the organization. The reason cited for us being removed was due to "turmoil" that we caused on the team. While yes, turmoil was created, it was because these members saw an issue with the car being designed by an alumni of the team, after he had graduated from the university.
While yes, part of our motivation is to do as well as the others, but our bigger goal and motivation is to build a car that would be designed by students currently at the university.
We considered Formula Electric, however most of our current knowledge base is with IC. So yes it is possible but it will significantly delay our results.
Thanks

[Claude Rouelle]

I am afraid you just created more turmoil....

Let me add to it :) : "Academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small" (quote attributed to Henry Kissinger)

[Jay Lawrence]

I really don't see this working at all. How will you share uni resources (workshop, computers, etc.)? It's bad enough having resourcing issues between IC and Electric (at least that was the case for some Australian teams), but to have 2 IC teams trying to achieve the same goal (win the competition) under the same roof with the same resources.... sounds insane. Sounds like the previous team/advisor has some powertripping issues that need to be resolved before you can get anything happening. I'm assuming you took up these issues with someone higher in the uni?

As for the reasoning (you want to build a car that was designed by students currently at the university): this doesn't really make sense. Why would you want to limit yourself to the current knowledge base? How do you expect the team to survive if it has to start from scratch every time people leave? If there is something wrong with a previous design, or you come up with a way to do something better, and you have an engineering justification that convinces people, then sure! But don't just throw out old designs because you didn't design them. If it's an alumni doing design on the current car (over and above the help that you might need/seek to work through something) then I'm pretty sure this is against the rules (and certainly the spirit of the competition) and you can do something about it.

My 2c

[lackmaster]

I really don't see this working at all. How will you share uni resources (workshop, computers, etc.)? It's bad enough having resourcing issues between IC and Electric (at least that was the case for some Australian teams), but to have 2 IC teams trying to achieve the same goal (win the competition) under the same roof with the same resources.... sounds insane. Sounds like the previous team/advisor has some powertripping issues that need to be resolved before you can get anything happening. I'm assuming you took up these issues with someone higher in the uni?

As for the reasoning (you want to build a car that was designed by students currently at the university): this doesn't really make sense. Why would you want to limit yourself to the current knowledge base? How do you expect the team to survive if it has to start from scratch every time people leave? If there is something wrong with a previous design, or you come up with a way to do something better, and you have an engineering justification that convinces people, then sure! But don't just throw out old designs because you didn't design them. If it's an alumni doing design on the current car (over and above the help that you might need/seek to work through something) then I'm pretty sure this is against the rules (and certainly the spirit of the competition) and you can do something about it.

My 2c

Well the last part is what was the issue. Every week over the summer we came together on the weekend and would talk about concept, design, etc. The graduated member, who graduated in may, began design on the car they plan to run this year. If he wanted to run carb and everyone else EFI? Too bad. The members input and proof was simply ignored even though we have had success and know how to work with similar systems on previous years cars.
Also, to clarify, our goals were to run the previous years car. However, once issues were found with the car, like found on all cars, the "higher ups" decided that a new car should designed and built. This new design was the one that our graduated member was trying to and now with us gone, successfully carry out.
We did take the issues to as high as we could go. The dean of engineering is our advisor and when we went and talked to him it got absolutely nowhere. We really have no idea who to go to next.
We know it will be difficult moving forward. Honestly, we expect no financial support from the university and we don't expect to be able to share shop space or computers. Some of the bigger things we have the easy ability to source; Engine, tubing supplier and bender, powertrain...
If we can find a professor willing to be an advisor at the university then we are in business on that side of things. One of our biggest concerns was if the rules even allowed 2 cars from the same school in the same competition in the same year.
I need to make it clear that this isn't a revenge thing nor is it about pride. It is trying to follow the spirit of the competition.
Thanks!

[Z]

Lackmaster,

Out of curiosity, could you give us a broad idea of the two major car concepts that are being considered (~argued over) here?

As a resolution of your problems, perhaps you could form two sub-teams that each build their own car. Then, on a nominated date AT LEAST ONE MONTH BEFORE COMP, you have a "drive-off". Essentially, you compete against each other in all the Dynamic events. Both sub-teams agree that whoever's car wins the drive-off goes to comp, and is fully supported by the other sub-team.

Z

[lackmaster]

Lackmaster,

Out of curiosity, could you give us a broad idea of the two major car concepts that are being considered (~argued over) here?

As a resolution of your problems, perhaps you could form two sub-teams that each build their own car. Then, on a nominated date AT LEAST ONE MONTH BEFORE COMP, you have a "drive-off". Essentially, you compete against each other in all the Dynamic events. Both sub-teams agree that whoever's car wins the drive-off goes to comp, and is fully supported by the other sub-team.

Z

Z,

Well, one concept was an all aluminum monocoque with a limited part number goal. Using a brand new KTM single cylinder motor, with a carburetor and a one piece solid rear axle. Suspension was also originally planned to be torsion bar style.

The second car was talked about to be a steel tube frame with an aluminum rear subframe, using our current R6 motor power plants. Suspension would have been double wishbone unequal As on all 4 corners. Running a LSD in the rear. Of which all designs were already finalized and all simulations completed. All that was left was assembly and testing.

While you have an excellent idea it is too late in the current circumstances to do that. As of us being kicked off the team the aluminum monocoque won. These decisions were greatly influenced by school hired technician(s) in the shop. Mind you, the aluminum monocoque idea had absolutely no numbers to back it up before they started purchasing materials. I would have been fine running this design but where all of us had issues is when they had a graduated member come back and design and make decisions on the car.

My question still remains, Can we run a seperate team on campus and still be okay with FSAE? I know it isn't ideal but just to make sure were within the rules before we start.

Being this late in the game, we probably won't be able to make it to any of the 2014 competitions but if everything moves forward there is no reason not to be there in 2015.
Thanks!

[AxelRipper]

There's a few options here:

First, lets be clear: A uni can not run 2 separate IC cars. You could run hybrid or EV, but not IC.

1.) Come back with your tail between your legs and help build the car. Even worse than having a racecar you didn't want to build is a racecar that you didn't build. I'd suggest this, especially if you're younger. Experience is experience, and if you can withstand a few years of making a car you don't want to make, eventually you'll figure out what you want to make to make everything better when you're finally in a position of power. Actually this can still happen even if you're a senior. At that point, just make it the best you can and try to get everything ready to compete in your last competition. You can learn a lot from having to do things someone else's way, even if you don't want to (speaking from experience here).
-On this point, that first concept really does sound pretty fun to make. However I'd still try the EFI. There's a lot of work that needs to be done to make that "unique" suspension work. The tuning options in the standard FSAE books don't really apply in the same way. Plus it would be remembered by many if it worked (especially if it worked well)

2.) Be nice and try to be reasonable with your advisor about the fact that having a non-student design the car is illegal per the rules. You could even option trying to find a compromise here. Figure out some middle ground on the projects. It's what you have to do in real life, and if you come in with a well thought out, polite, well thought out argument, you might get somewhere. If choosing this option, don't go in cussing him up and simply complaining about it. You won't get anywhere.

3.) This option is tricky, and I wouldn't advise it unless you have some REALLY good contacts: Go above your advisor with the same scenario I mentioned in option 2. This primarily is best to be kept for if option 2 fails. At best, you get a new advisor and the team gets a rethink. However, the issue with this one is that the higher you go in power, the more possible it becomes that you will destroy the entire program. They (the powers that be) can suddenly go "This is bad conduct. Sort yourselves out. Until then, you can't have any money." *Poof* No more team.

Best of luck with the situation, no matter what you wind up doing.

[MegaDeath]

As far as the rules are concerned, I can't see anything in the rules prohibiting multiple IC teams from the same university competing at the same time. I know a few years ago the rules strictly said 1 university 1 car, that's it!! But that rule seems to have been altered to allow an IC and EV car from the same school to compete at the same time, and no longer specifically says that two cars from the same school can't compete at the same competition. Rule A7.2 in the 2014 rules is my reference for this.

This is one of those things where you should probably ask the rules committee, because I know for a fact that in the past it was perfectly spelled out in the rules that there could be only one car per school, and I think the fact that that rule no longer exists is just because it was altered to allow IC and EV cars from the same university.

[BeunMan]

Except in the UK where rules 7.2 forbids (addendum rules) two teams of participating except if they do something 'different' like using H2 fuel. All others, including FSG, use the two if EV and Comb rule.

[Racer-X]

Z,

Well, one concept was an all aluminum monocoque with a limited part number goal. Using a brand new KTM single cylinder motor, with a carburetor and a one piece solid rear axle. Suspension was also originally planned to be torsion bar style.

The second car was talked about to be a steel tube frame with an aluminum rear subframe, using our current R6 motor power plants. Suspension would have been double wishbone unequal As on all 4 corners. Running a LSD in the rear. Of which all designs were already finalized and all simulations completed. All that was left was assembly and testing.

While you have an excellent idea it is too late in the current circumstances to do that. As of us being kicked off the team the aluminum monocoque won. These decisions were greatly influenced by school hired technician(s) in the shop. Mind you, the aluminum monocoque idea had absolutely no numbers to back it up before they started purchasing materials. I would have been fine running this design but where all of us had issues is when they had a graduated member come back and design and make decisions on the car.

My question still remains, Can we run a seperate team on campus and still be okay with FSAE? I know it isn't ideal but just to make sure were within the rules before we start.

Being this late in the game, we probably won't be able to make it to any of the 2014 competitions but if everything moves forward there is no reason not to be there in 2015.
Thanks!

Now I feel sorry for you guys. I was imagining it going the other way where a bunch of newbies came up with a crazy concept and got annoyed and left when no one listened to their "ground breaking" ideas. That's common and I have no sympathy for people that do that.

Realistically this is not going to go well for you even if it is legal (which I think it is). You're going to have to find a new shop, a new adviser, get new tools, get more sponsors, and likely have to fight for resources with the established team. That means you're starting from square -1 and even with the experience you have chances are your first car (2015) will not be competitive. I'm just being realistic here.

My $.02 is suck it up, do a good job, and deal with this car for the year. Then when 2015 rolls around you're in a much better position to be competitive. At least then you have a team and this year's stuff to build on (or throw away).

[lackmaster]

Now I feel sorry for you guys. I was imagining it going the other way where a bunch of newbies came up with a crazy concept and got annoyed and left when no one listened to their "ground breaking" ideas. That's common and I have no sympathy for people that do that.

Realistically this is not going to go well for you even if it is legal (which I think it is). You're going to have to find a new shop, a new adviser, get new tools, get more sponsors, and likely have to fight for resources with the established team. That means you're starting from square -1 and even with the experience you have chances are your first car (2015) will not be competitive. I'm just being realistic here.

My $.02 is suck it up, do a good job, and deal with this car for the year. Then when 2015 rolls around you're in a much better position to be competitive. At least then you have a team and this year's stuff to build on (or throw away).

I appreciate the understanding. We were all taken off guard by it and really had no say in the matter. The crappy part is that we can't just suck it up and deal with it because we were kicked off the team. I have the letter they gave us that says we are suspended for the 2013-14 season yadda yadda yadda. Which according to the teams constitution it requires 2/3 members vote to remove someone, which didn't happen. That is completely different issue though. I have 200 ft of steel donated as of now. Also have shop space and the kids that are interested. All we need now is an adviser which we should have at the first of the year. It will be slow and tough but i'd rather learn a lot and not be competitive than have an adult design our car and us ride the coattails. Thanks!

Lackmaster