SUPRA SAEINDIA [Archive] - FSAE.com Forums

buggaero

07-29-2010, 06:37 AM

The debut year of the Formula SAEIndia sees some major changes.

ENGINE : On the paths of FSAE debut...an 800cc stock engine. (suzuki alto F8B type) *sponsored for standardization*

TRANSMISSION : Suzuki Alto *sponsored*

ENUDURANCE RUN : A 22km Race.... yes you just read RACE *track length to be disclosed soon*

TOP SPEED : 120Kmph

We're gonna have the event at 1st,2nd and 3rd of July 2011, at Madras Motor Sports Club, Chennai.

http://suprasaeindia.org/supra_Saeindia.asp

Kirk Feldkamp

07-29-2010, 10:24 AM

Hahaha. I can see Michael Royce and Steve Daum cringing when reading RACE. I can see everyone else cringing at the thought of having to use a standard engine. Does this mean FSAE India cars are all going to end up looking like Mini Baja cars? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

-Kirk

Xeilos

07-29-2010, 06:09 PM

I can see everyone cringing at the word race. With how our cars are built (read: they always break) and the skill of our drivers, this is a disaster that is not waiting to happen (it will happen; someone is going to get killed at 120 kph).

This is not to mention that who wants the car that you worked on for 12 months destroyed by some amateur driver who doesn't know what an inside line is?

Honestly if this runs and someone does get hurt/killed this will tarnish all of the FSAE names in the world. Just my 2c.

Big Bird

07-29-2010, 07:28 PM

Can someone PLEASE reassure me that you guys aren't seriously thinking of racing wheel-to-wheel. Please?

t21jj

07-29-2010, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
hahaha. I can see Michael Royce and Steve Daum cringing when reading RACE. I can see everyone else cringing at the thought of having to use a standard engine. Does this mean FSAE India cars are all going to end up looking like Mini Baja cars? Roll Eyes

Originally posted by Xeilos:
I can see everyone cringing at the word race. With how our cars are built (read: they always break) and the skill of our drivers, this is a disaster that is not waiting to happen (it will happen; someone is going to get killed at 120 kph).

This is not to mention that who wants the car that you worked on for 12 months destroyed by some amateur driver who doesn't know what an inside line is?

Honestly if this runs and someone does get hurt/killed this will tarnish all of the FSAE names in the world. Just my 2c.

Originally posted by Big Bird:
Can someone PLEASE reassure me that you guys aren't seriously thinking of racing wheel-to-wheel. Please?
+? to all of the above.

This won't end well

buggaero

07-30-2010, 09:04 AM

There is going to be a 2 round Driver's Training.
Simulation and real.

Yes, this sure seems worth cringing and i can actually see someone crashing into me ....
But don't you guys think your participation from next summer... (teams like STUTTGART,RMIT and every other champion) wheel-to-wheel will take FSAE to a totally new level....

I guess 25 years is a long time for teams to think of taking a leap... that.. when you already swear by your safety measures!!!!

buggaero

07-30-2010, 09:14 AM

And kirk... i will post you the pics of our cars and the event day pics as well...
For the time being you can figure out if this 800cc stock engine formula car looks anyway like a baja car...
Formula Maruti (http://www.maruti800.com/images/inside/main_mms.jpg)

RollingCamel

07-30-2010, 09:16 AM

As students we learn more from our mistakes. This way you will not survive to learn!!

This won't be a leap, obviously it is extremely dangerous. Then it would actually hinder creativity putting pressure on the students being afraid to risk it.

Add remote control and I'll definitely say yes!

buggaero

07-30-2010, 09:59 AM

I too reacted like most you guys 5 days back when i came to know about this.
And truly...there's no point i can stand for in this.

I was only advocating the Race fantasy in all of us..and i know very well IT IS NOT F1.

Ockham

07-30-2010, 11:07 AM

There is absolutely no way FSAE or SAE will attach their name to this. Forgive me for being all nanny-state, but you guys are asking for serious trouble.

Adambomb

07-30-2010, 05:15 PM

Going wheel to wheel is SUCH a bad idea. First off, what are the rules being based off of? FSAE rules aren't written for wheel to wheel racing, they're written for SCCA Solo type events where contact is appropriately super-rare.

Between the standardized powertrain and having to build the cars to survive contact, it really is starting to sound like a much more dangerous, high-speed version of Baja...

It's not just a matter of "getting used to the idea." The idea is just plain dangerous. Someone getting injured is the biggest threat we have to being able to do this all again next year, which is why I also can't imagine SAE having anything to do with it. I know the whole liability kick is a lot bigger in America (and probably Europe too?) than the rest of the world, but this doesn't even sound like the risk taken is giving any real benefit. If the cars are built for contact, they'll likely be as un-engineered as a Baja car...

thewoundedsoldier

07-30-2010, 06:31 PM

Forget the fact that the cars are not capable of handling wheel-to-wheel races. Drivers at the FSAE level are not even close to capable! Two rounds of driver training wouldn't change this.

EPMAl

07-30-2010, 06:45 PM

If the safety issue can't convince you, try this one. If you want to have a remote chance of actually passing someone on a FSAE track, the track would need to be at least 6 feet wider (at the very minimum). That means the chicane and hairpins won't be as tight as they are right now, which automatically makes you go faster around the track. Since FSAE is mostly about engineering a car, you don't need to think a lot to make a car go fast in a straight line (a evening at your local drag strip can easily convince you of that). That would make actual engineering playing a lesser role in design and, oh yeah, making it even more dangerous at the same time.

Big Bird

07-30-2010, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by buggaero:
There is going to be a 2 round Driver's Training.
Simulation and real.

Yes, this sure seems worth cringing and i can actually see someone crashing into me ....
But don't you guys think your participation from next summer... (teams like STUTTGART,RMIT and every other champion) wheel-to-wheel will take FSAE to a totally new level....

I guess 25 years is a long time for teams to think of taking a leap... that.. when you already swear by your safety measures!!!!

Agreed. This would take FSAE to a totally new level. A new level of danger. A new level of legal liability. A new level of stupidity.

Your teams have not even mastered the basics of the event as it stands. I dread to think of the consequences of a car travelling at 120kmh meeting a car broken down in the middle of the track.

If you have to do this to get a competition up and running in India then do us all a favor and remove any reference to FSAE. That way when the inevitible happens, the rest of us won't be implicated. You mention the 25 years our comp has been running. It wouldn't have lasted anywhere near this amount of time with what you are proposing.

Finally, I sincerely hope you are not using our team's name as a means of promoting your event, as you have above. RMIT would have nothing to do with an utterly hare-brained idea like this. If you think we would risk the safety of our team members, our reputation, and at the very least our vehicle by competing in such an event then you are sorely mistaken.

Shashi

07-30-2010, 09:46 PM

Boy am I glad everyone here hates this idea.

Here goes my 2c :-

- I just wish the organizers realize that this is an engineering competition, not a goddamn race! Highlighting it as such is just waiting for some really bad stuff to happen.

- Drivers in this country are bad. That is because people do not take safety as a serious concern. Its just the way it is.

- Hate to say this, but the organizing committee has to go a long long way before realizing what the Indian engineering students are capable of, which unfortunately does not amount to much. I was at FSAE India 2010. None of the cars were in running condition and if they did manage to get their cars up and running, I bet my bike on it, the wheels would fly off at 20mph. This is not to put the Indian teams down, but just to let them know that they have quite some time to go before they can seriously consider driving their cars with enough confidence that the above mentioned scenario does not happen, let alone wheel to wheel.

- The standard engine prescribed puts teams which have been using a 600cc engine in serious jeopardy. Orion Racing Mumbai and Manipal are 2 teams I can think of right now. If they do make the 800cc engine mandatory, these 2 teams have to make 2 separate cars for each competition season. Now that is practically impossible for a team to achieve.

- The standard engine produces somewhere around 40 HP and would weigh around 60-70 kg. Now with those sort of numbers, are we Indians really hoping to break some engineering feat? I don't think so.

- Claude has considerable say in the organizing committee even though he is not part of it. I hope he gets to know about this. I think I'll write to him.

- God help us if this goes ahead!

buggaero

07-31-2010, 12:51 AM

Their's no point worrying about being glad or not shashi, because the post is a total exchange of information.
Nothing More than that.

Yeah Big Bird, it's obviously too dngerous a proposal for anyone to accept. Still i don't regret having done that. No one's forcing you to show up right.

As i already said, my first reaction to this was exactly what you all go thinking after reading this.
Some even went numb in shock.
And shashi you don't worry about our wheels flying off, maybe not this time around. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Taher

07-31-2010, 03:52 AM

whoaa....so many views...

Our team has just bought a new CBR 600RR engine, 2009 model thinking that we would be using it for this competition. But now.....

nvpF1crazy

07-31-2010, 04:18 AM

So is the engine choice by the organizers final? Or do we wait for some official statement coz this I guess was announced at the Chennai workshop on 25th July. Both engines are sooooo drastically different that everything we decide had to be changed http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

buggaero

07-31-2010, 11:10 AM

I happened to import a CBR engine jst when we were informed about the change.
It's Strange ....seems quite like a speedy baja as someone just posted...

I'm not sure and couldn't find the page again, but i had read FSAE west too started with stock engine.

t21jj

07-31-2010, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by buggaero:
but i had read FSAE west too started with stock engine.

No

D Collins Jr

07-31-2010, 12:42 PM

FSAE West started as a FSAE competition...aka, no spec engine. As far as I know, the first West event was in 2006. My team was there with a 4 cylinder 600, and RMIT was there with a 1 cylinder (correct?).

Also, this is a TERRIBLE idea. here's some reasons.
1. FSAE India teams wouldn't be able to compete anywhere else in the world with an 800 cc engines.
2. I doubt your cars will do 120 kmh. And moreover, having gone that fast in FSAE cars I can attest, that is frightening!
3. I also race wheel to wheel occasionally. Don't do it. It's tough. It takes YEARS to get used to it and become competent.

Please don't go through with this plan. It will be detrimental to all of us.

buggaero

07-31-2010, 02:05 PM

Dr. Collins Junior...... Totally Agreed.

This was a huge setback ... But if we design with an F8B well... we'r gonna gain some valuable knowledge to handle an FSAE 600.

t21jj,
"""Using the Mini Baja competitions as a guide, engineering students had to design and build small, "Indy-style" vehicles using the same stock engine used in the Popular Mechanics article.""" - FSAE History.
And the engine was
5 HP Briggs & Stratton

Being Late at it proves we are any bit inefficient?

Adambomb

08-03-2010, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by buggaero:
t21jj,
"""Using the Mini Baja competitions as a guide, engineering students had to design and build small, "Indy-style" vehicles using the same stock engine used in the Popular Mechanics article.""" - FSAE History.
And the engine was
5 HP Briggs & Stratton

Being Late at it proves we are any bit inefficient?

That wasn't FSAE West. FSAE West did start as a direct offshoot of FSAE Michigan in 2006 with the exact same rule book. "Mini Indy" was long, long ago, I'm thinking like 1981 or 1978 and eventually evolved into the current FSAE Michigan competition.

And here's the pivotal difference: 5hp industrial engine vs. 40 hp automotive engine. Well, that and being wheel to wheel, which nobody in FSAE history ever thought was a good idea. But you really can't go fast with a 5hp (or even 10 hp like in current baja) Briggs, so fortunately they grew out of that.

Starting out fast is bad. Starting out wheel to wheel is worse.

t21jj

08-03-2010, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by buggaero:
t21jj,
"""Using the Mini Baja competitions as a guide, engineering students had to design and build small, "Indy-style" vehicles using the same stock engine used in the Popular Mechanics article.""" - FSAE History.
And the engine was
5 HP Briggs & Stratton

Being Late at it proves we are any bit inefficient?
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I'm still going to sick with no, big difference as Adam pointed out.

Originally posted by Adambomb:
That wasn't FSAE West. FSAE West did start as a direct offshoot of FSAE Michigan in 2006 with the exact same rule book. "Mini Indy" was long, long ago, I'm thinking like 1981 or 1978 and eventually evolved into the current FSAE Michigan competition.

And here's the pivotal difference: 5hp industrial engine vs. 40 hp automotive engine. Well, that and being wheel to wheel, which nobody in FSAE history ever thought was a good idea. But you really can't go fast with a 5hp (or even 10 hp like in current baja) Briggs, so fortunately they grew out of that.

Starting out fast is bad. Starting out wheel to wheel is worse.

+1 quoted for truth.

John_Burford

08-04-2010, 05:05 PM

Formula SAE started out as a wheel to wheel race. I believe FSAE changed to running small groups for the endurance race in 1985 or 1986. I'm not positive on the year. Does anyone else recall?

buggaero

08-05-2010, 08:52 AM

Really? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

exFSAE

08-05-2010, 09:05 AM

Easily the dumbest idea I've seen on these forums. And there have been a lot of dumb ideas.

Almost guarantee there will be a serious injury.

I wouldn't even consider this in passing for a US competition. And let's be fuckin real here... some of the stuff I've seen come out of that region of the world is scary at 0kph, much less 80kph, much less 120kph.

Plus some teams that truly do not care about safety. The one crew that drove their car into a excavator or whatever to test their crash structure with no safety gear... unbelievable. And you're gonna put them wheel to wheel at high speed... good luck.

Big Bird

08-05-2010, 09:28 AM

Maybe I am missing something here - but why are you not simply using the FSAE rules? The concept is safe, proven, and works everywhere else.

I just do not get this.

Pradeep

08-05-2010, 11:46 AM

Hello,

There seems to be some kind of mis-understanding.

The rulebook on their website is clearly following the standard FSAE rules. Only difference is the standard 800cc engines.
So there is going to be NO WHEEL TO WHEEL racing.

You can find the rule here: h t t p://suprasaeindia.org/downloads_rule_book.asp

Although my team is now not eligible to participate in the event anymore as we use Honda CBR600 engine (to participate in the international events), I wish the organizers good luck.

But I wish they would have been more accommodating.

buggaero

08-05-2010, 02:02 PM

I have been repeatedly informing here that at the workshop held at chennai,it has been clearly declared that there is gonna be a race and that there will be around 10 laps.

And the Insane Organizers moved to an 800cc engine for the 2 big reasons,

1) Most teams couldn't procure a Honda CBR 600cc or even a 500cc enfield.

2) The organizers had few of them involved in FISSME event as well, so that way they hope to make a better hold over the whole thing.

Kirk Feldkamp

08-05-2010, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Pradeep:
Only difference is the standard 800cc engines.
So there is going to be NO WHEEL TO WHEEL racing.

Unless I'm going crazy, I don't see any rules that actually define a restrictor. There does not appear to be an equivalent of Section B8.6 from the 2010 FSAE rulebook in the SAE India rules. The engine development seems pretty wide open except for no nitrous oxide. Turbochargers and superchargers appear to be fair game. There also does not appear to be anything prohibiting individual throttle bodies for each cylinder (which is actually pretty cool). I don't care if they make 47hp in stock form, there are a lot of FSAE types around the world that would be perfectly capable of making 200+ horsepower with an unrestricted, 800cc turbo engine without very much difficulty! Perhaps they're allowing this because of how heavy the engine and trans are going to be?

Also, I'm particularly interested in how they plan to work the tire rule:
3.2.3.2 Tires
Tyres will be issued by organizers and use of the same is mandatory.
Tyre Spec: 185X60X13- R (used racing tyres) (or) 155X70X13- R (Normal Street tyres). Either one of these will be issued.

Used?! Haha. Define that one! How used are we talking here?

Clearly, much different than the standard FSAE rules... and I've only skimmed them.

-Kirk

buggaero

08-05-2010, 02:10 PM

Kirk, it had been declared in the workshop that the teams couldn't tamper or modify the ENGINE and TRANSMISSION, any how, except a little in exhaust.

And the tyres are just tyres.... Nothing more than that.

Kirk Feldkamp

08-05-2010, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by buggaero:
Kirk, it had been declared in the workshop that the teams couldn't tamper or modify the ENGINE and TRANSMISSION, any how, except a little in exhaust.

And the tyres are just tyres.... Nothing more than that.

Perhaps you haven't been around racing for very long, but unless things have been defined very clearly in the rule book, you are pretty much free to do whatever you want... and if you didn't try to go around the "agreement" you'd be a damn fool, and a very uncompetitive racer. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif As a competitor, I'd want to be damn sure that if I was going to "play by the rules" that everyone else would be in the same boat as me.

There are only a few ways to mandate a 'spec' engine and trans in a rule set. (1) Factory or factory authorized, sealed engines with tamper-proof sealing. (2)Have a very long rule book that defines each and every allowable spec part. If you do #1, I would buy it. There's really no practical way to do #2 unless you tear down and inspect everyone's engines ala NASCAR. Whether intentional or not, the standard FSAE rule set caps the power risk by mandating the allowable restrictor diameters. I'd be surprised if the India event organizers have read and/or understood what they published, because there are many references throughout the text to rules that are no longer written after their edit.

-Kirk

Pradeep

08-05-2010, 04:07 PM

@Kirk

I didnt read every line before. Now that I have see that Rule 3.5.4 has the title "Throttle, Throttle Actuation and Intake Restrictor" but no mention of the 20mm restrictor in the following paragraph. Ah, just shows how important is it to read the rulebook thoroughly !

Anyway I was trying to point out about the wheel to wheel racing. But if the organizers have indeed made an announcement conflicting with the rulebook at the Chennai workshop, I cant imagine whats going to happen during technical inspection!!

Gaanja

08-06-2010, 04:51 AM

Well to add to all that

-The Indian teams who have been participating in international events with a 600cc engine will not be participating here because it is not worth the effort in designing a new roll cage just to fit on the Maruti drivetrain for just this one event. I wish the organisers had approached Tata for the Nano engines to keep the competition open. I am also quite sure no international teams will be participating for the same reason.

-The decision to have wheel to wheel racing is a very bad idea. Two rounds of driver training is not going to be enough to ensure that the participants will be driving sensibly.Its a huge risk especially for an event that is being held for the first time for college students. A serious incident might jeopardize future FSAE events in India and it will be lot tougher to convince the university authorities to allow the FSAE teams to continue.

- I dont think the lack of a restrictor is going to make a big difference as the rules say that the engine is not to be touched. A stock Maruti engine with no mods won't be able generate more power than a restricted 600cc super bike engine

I just hope the race doesn't happen

Dash

08-06-2010, 06:30 AM

buggaero

08-06-2010, 09:57 PM

I've driven our teams formula car in excess of 120 kph, and i would never even imagine these cars racing that fast. The cars would be EXTREMELY twitchy, or would have to grow in size to compensate for that.

But the Supra car is going to be a lot more heavy. And won't ever reach anything more than 95-97kmph on that track.
Still do you feel that it has any scope to act twitchy ...