FSAE-A 2011 Car swap

[MartyB]

Hey teams,

So there has been some discussion about a car swap to be held at Silhouette Karts on the Tuesday after comp (20/12/11). We spoke to the guys at Silhouette and unfortunately it appears that the track has been booked out that entire week with corporate bookings.

However, I have been in contact with the Gippsland Car Club, and spoke to them about the possibility of holding the car swap at Bryant Park (aka Haunted Hills and "Little Bathurst"). Some information about the track can be found at http://sportingregister.wordpress.com/bryant-park/ . They said it would be fine and I wanted to consult other teams before going ahead.

We went to a few Kharnacrosses there earlier in the year and it is an awesome track, I think it would be really good fun to have the car swap there. Obviously being a larger track than a go kart track, we'd have to have a few people around the track to make sure cones are being replaced, but if we had a few teams there it should be more than manageable.

The track is a bit further outside of Melbourne than Silhouette, but I believe that it's well worth the trip because we would have the track to ourselves, and the track is a whole heap more fun. We'll probably run a BBQ as well, so it will be a good day to chat with other teams.

This isn't just for teams either, it would really good to get some design judges and SAE organisers along. We're happy to offer some of the judges a drive in our car if they're interested and availiable.

I need to get an indication of how many teams would be keen to come along, so if you could post below or get in contact with me at martin.bett@monashmotorsport.com that would be greatly appreciated. Once I have an idea of how many teams are keen, we can work out more details about the day.

Cheers.

[MartyB]

Hey teams,

So there has been some discussion about a car swap to be held at Silhouette Karts on the Tuesday after comp (20/12/11). We spoke to the guys at Silhouette and unfortunately it appears that the track has been booked out that entire week with corporate bookings.

However, I have been in contact with the Gippsland Car Club, and spoke to them about the possibility of holding the car swap at Bryant Park (aka Haunted Hills and "Little Bathurst"). Some information about the track can be found at http://sportingregister.wordpress.com/bryant-park/ . They said it would be fine and I wanted to consult other teams before going ahead.

We went to a few Kharnacrosses there earlier in the year and it is an awesome track, I think it would be really good fun to have the car swap there. Obviously being a larger track than a go kart track, we'd have to have a few people around the track to make sure cones are being replaced, but if we had a few teams there it should be more than manageable.

The track is a bit further outside of Melbourne than Silhouette, but I believe that it's well worth the trip because we would have the track to ourselves, and the track is a whole heap more fun. We'll probably run a BBQ as well, so it will be a good day to chat with other teams.

This isn't just for teams either, it would really good to get some design judges and SAE organisers along. We're happy to offer some of the judges a drive in our car if they're interested and availiable.

I need to get an indication of how many teams would be keen to come along, so if you could post below or get in contact with me at martin.bett@monashmotorsport.com that would be greatly appreciated. Once I have an idea of how many teams are keen, we can work out more details about the day.

Cheers.

[NickFavazzo]

Bryant Park looks great, It is a shame Silhouette is not available but they are very good to all the teams.

UWA Motorsport is in for the day still,

It definitely would be a great day if the judges and organisers could come along too.

Also is Silhouette still available for the week leading up to the competition?

Thanks

[carbon_black]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NickFavazzo:
Also is Silhouette still available for the week leading up to the competition?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure - we are hoping so as we get into Melbourne on the 9th, but we haven't checked yet - otherwise we'll also be on the lookout for another test venue.

Cheers

Pete.
UTS
Sydney, Australia.

[Tom Wettenhall]

Have you had any word from anyone in MUR? I think we'll be there (judging from the grons whe Haunted Hills was mentioned) but I don't know, weird stuff is happening with our grad dates and stuff around comp.

[Boffin]

We're keen to bring swinburne's 2010 petrol car, however I can't confirm that right now.
A few things are needed to be organised and put in place before that can happen. Once I know anything, I will update here.

[Jon Oneill]

UTS is attending the swap this year. We may also be bringing the 2010 car (spares for the event) in complete form, so we may have 2 cars at the swap.

Will let you know once I know more. Either way the UTSM11 will definitely be there.

[Jack Bellotti]

QUT will not be attending car swap. It is impossible with our current academic supervisor.

"...the nature of the event presents a high risk to QUT. For example, drivers have not been vetted or inducted etc. The potential gains do not outweigh the risks in my opinion."

I was talking to MartyB on facebook about the car swap and my situation with QUT. He said that most teams will not mind that I cannot offer them my team's car to drive. If anyone is willing to let me drive their car (particularly interested in Goodyears and 450cc singles) then I will be hugely grateful.

I've put this video here so you can see that I am capable of driving and also you can show it to your academic supervisor if necessary. It is the 2010 car at a hill climb earlier this year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITJxV6wNJII

[NickFavazzo]

UWA Motorsport will be there, although we will probably restrict it to enduro drivers from comp and judges. The day will need some planning though and a few guys in charge of the track and running order. How many teams have used the track before?

On another note, has anyone contacted Silhouette about using the track before comp? It would be easier if one of the teams in contact with them regularly asked. Or even how about we book the track and split costs between the teams? The privilege of using the track is invaluable, especially for out of state teams.

[MartyB]

So far we have the following teams bringing cars:
UWA
UTS
Melbourne?
Monash (possibly 2 cars if we can borrow another M400 and 35mm Jenvey throttle body)
Auckland?
Swinburne?

I'll email the other teams this week, as they might not check these forums regularly.

I encourage as many teams to come down as possible, even if you can't bring your car, as it will be a good day to relax and chat to other teams. As for driving other cars, it will depend on how other teams feel about it. We let drivers from UWA and Auckland drive our car last year, even though neither team were able to bring their cars to the car swap. But it is up to the teams who they let drive their car, and we will have to see how everyone is feeling on the day.

I do agree that we should restrict it people to who have driven an endurance before, as the team will gain the most from this, and it is the safest option. We will probably encourage every driver drive their own car around the track a few times, to get to know the track before jumping into a foreign car. We were also throwing up the idea that for every driver who wants to take part in the car swap, they would need to bring 3 team members to be marshalls on the day. How does everyone feel about this?

Monash is happy to organise and coordinate the day, but we'll probably need a few other people to help marshall.

Because it is a larger track, there is possibility that you will need a Level 2 non-speed CAMS licence to participate. This is fine for enduro drivers as they should already have their level 2 speed cams licence. But this does conflict with letting design judges drive. I will find out what the circumstances are, and get back to you.

We should be heading to Sil this arvo, and tomorrow, so I will speak to Sil about the week leading up to competition and the possibility of booking it for the week.

[Jon Oneill]

We will have a spare M400 that you can use for the old Monash car, but no throttle body.

Personally, I'd really like to see the M10 there as it is the closest thing to our UTS car running in Australia, with Aero.

Were also more than happy to help our with the marshaling, as we should have about 6-7 people there to help. It all sounds great to me.

Unfortunately we don't have any resources to help with the organisation now (were only bringing 10 people this year), but we are more than happy to help on the day.

Jon

[NickFavazzo]

UWA Motorsport will have a majority of its team (maybe around 20 people at track) there to help Marshall and run cars, we dont really have anywhere else to hide..

We are looking forward to it, it should be a good day.

[Simon Magnus Anderson]

Sorry about the late reply as we've just finished up exams and just got our launch night out of the way.

We would be definitely able to come down to the Haunted Hills track and had some fun on it earlier in the year. I will pass this information onto the guys at Monday's meeting. I know some students will be graduating on the Tuesday (20/12), but others will be available at least to bring the car down.

The only thing would be cost as similar to most SAE teams, we are not made of money so just let us know the cost.

Email me at: s.anderson@murmotorsports.com if you want to get in touch directly.

Cheers,
Simon

[S_Tube_47]

Auckland will not be attending.

I will personally be there, as may a couple of others, and more than willing to help out.

Cheers.

[MartyB]

Hey all,

So we currently have 5 teams who can make it. I spoke with the Bryant Park organisers this morning, and they are going to charge us $550 for the day. Currently that works out to $110 per team. This is very cheap for the facility on offer. However, I'm going to email the teams who haven't replied to see if they are keen, as the more teams we have, the cheaper it becomes for everyone.

I double checked that it is fine for the design judges to drive.

So we have the track from 10am til 4pm, on Tuesday the 20th of December.

Marty.

[Jon Oneill]

Change of plans,

We can only bring our 2011 car now, as we have been forced to pull the engine from our 2010 due to a transmission issue.

We will still bring a spare motec for the 2010 Monash car, and are still definitely attending though.

[Simon Magnus Anderson]

Sounds good Marty,
Thanks for organising this and cost shouldn't be a problem between our drivers and a few others. Good luck with preparation before competition. See you there.

[Boffin]

Marty

Unfortunately we are out for car swap.
We've started going over the car and there are a couple of funny things going on, which we would not feel comfortable giving to a driver who does not know the car (no offence to anyone).

I should still be kicking around to give "entertainment" and "encouragement" to certain people throughout the day though.

[Rex Chan]

Boffin/Ben: is the 2010 car still going to be there though? You guys could drive it anyway; as a benchmark thing.

Since you drove the 2010 Melbourne car, it would be really cool if you drove the 2011 car to see if we fixed the things that were poor on the 2010 car.

[jeffryder12]

Bryant Park looks great, It is a shame Silhouette is not available but they are very good to all the teams.

UWA Motorsport is in for the day still,

It definitely would be a great day if the judges and organisers could come along too.

Also is Silhouette still available for the week leading up to the competition?

Thanks

[MartyB]

Hey guys,

Just a reminder that this is happening tomorrow, should be an epic day! We have the track from 10am, so the earlier we get there, the more track time we will get.

Everyone and anyone is welcome to come along, even if they cant bring their cars. There is going to be a fair amount of alumni from lots of teams, so we should have a good gathering of people.

We'll also have our photographer from the comp there, so if you want to grab some photos of your car from comp, he will have it on his hard drive.

Thanks!

[CandiceW]

We are bringing our car along, however since we need to fly out that night we will only be there from about 10am to 2pm.

Whats the go with cost?

[MartyB]

Awesome to hear that the Curtin guys will be able to make it!

At this stage there are 6 teams, (Monash, UWA, UTS, Melbourne, Deakin, Curtin) so it's about $90 per team. I'll pay for everyone, then I'll chase up the teams throughout the day.

[Rex Chan]

Hello all! Great comp, although we didn't do too well.

At the moment, we (Melbourne Uni) is in our workshop fixing the steering unijoints and doing car checks for the Driver Swap tomorrow.

We will be there at 9:30AM, and so leaving our uni at 7:30. A bunch of Auckland guys are staying in the city, so we can give a lift from our city/Parkville campus. I know they're going to an after-after party in Clayton tonight, with monash guys i think, so that should be fun.

[Rex Chan]

Some guys from Auckland are coming too (sans car, with Melbourne Uni).

Checks have been done on the MUR car, so we're all good to go for Tuesday. We're running our Yoshimura RS-5 straight through muffler, so the engine will sound amazing.

[Rex Chan]

Hello all! Just wanted to say a very quick thank you to Marty for organising the whole thing - it was AWESOME! The track was great; we got lots of drivers from other unis into our car (I counted 10 non-Melbourne drivers in the Melbourne car), got great feedback, and no one got hurt.

Two things to note before I got to sleep: we were at the gates at exactly 9:30AM, so Melbourne gets to keep its reputation of being on time to test days. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The other uni's which ran (Monash, UWA, UTS) ran comp spec mufflers, so were quite quiet. (UTS got a 102dB at Noise apparently). We ran the Yoshi, which does NOT meet comp rules (119dB from memory when we tested it with our sound meter); which made our engine sound very nice. It also made it easy to tell when our car was on track and driving.

Last thing: all 4 cars ran pretty much without problems (I know our car just had to be re-fuelled, as no-one was going to like pushing our 240kg car uphill if we ran out).

Deakin brought their car, but the engine was properly broekn now, so no driving.

Curtin came without car, and we asked one of them to drive our car.

I saw 2 RMIT guys (engine dude).

There was one chassis judge.

And a Monash FSAE alumni, who gave awesome feedback on our cars handling.

We helped get 3 Auckland guys out to Bryant Park, and 3 others drove there. Two got drives in the Melbourne & Monash car.

Again: Thanks heaps to Marty, and I'll def be there in 2012 to see another swap.

[Rex Chan]

Just some thoughts for next year: maybe 1-3 people could be designated person in charge, so that they keep tabs on marshalling points and direct cars on/off the track.

And organise radios, becuase some of the track is hidden from the main start line.

[Chapo]

Id be interested in helping with that next year to the future organisers...

[Rex Chan]

Some not-so-great videos, on fb:

Driver Swap - UWA Sweeper 2 (Pete Marsh) (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150449306153036)

Driver Swap - Monash Downhill (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150449307458036)

Driver Swap - Monash/UTS/MUR Sweeper (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150449328343036)

[Rex Chan]

The first GoPro to hit YouTube, just to show the track layout.

FSAE 2011 Driver Swap: Andrew Davies (Melbourne) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Vwj9P_LUU&context=C3ddb566ADOEgsToPDskIe-TxrK645CTfhmbbaqhJF)

[Jon Oneill]

I'm currently writing up a pretty detailed account of my drive in the 4 different cars for next years team. I guess I can put up a shortened version on here.

Would be very keen to see what all the other drivers thought of the different cars.

Thanks again for the great day guys. I'm still in a great deal of pain after squeezing into the monash cars seat (and i've got the bruises to prove it). I'll be back next year, if only to help.

[Rex Chan]

Jon: I would be very interested to have your thoughts down on paper.

Tristan (MOnash FSAE ALumni) wrote us a very detailed email about our car, which I will ask if its ok to put up here.

[Rex Chan]

here's Tristan Atkins' thoughts on the 2011 Melbourne Uni FSAE car (in case the email gets lost in the mists of FSAE time):

Hi guys,

I noticed that no one was writing anything down yesterday so I thought I'll e-mail my thoughts so that you have some record.

As for my previous experience, I've been Monash's dynamic driver for both autocross and endurance from 2007-2009. In that time Monash had winged, four cylinder cars, spool differentials, manual shifter with hand clutch and ran 13 inch wheels with Avon tyres.

Below is my appreciation of each of each component the driver interacts with along with suggestions on how to improve drivability for next years entry:

Engine and Throttle: Your 2011 car is the most powerful SAE car I have driven with good torque to match. Would easily have about 15-20% extra power than the Monash 09 and the current UTS car. I would suggest that rather than chasing any additional power, I would allocate resources towards improving the fuel efficiency and more importantly the linearity of the power delivery for the driver. UTS throttle could easily be set at a nice rpm so as to take of from a standing start but I found your throttle would immediately rise up from idle to say 5-6k and I was trying my best to be gentle on the throttle. This aggressive response was the same on the circuit when exiting from slow sections. This caused me to delay opening up the throttle until I had the car straightened out. Possibly and eccentric cam on the throttle body could assist with improving low end throttle sensitivity. (I'm no power train expert) Throttle position, stroke and feel was nice but my foot slipped off to the right a few times when down shifting and made things interesting. Some sort of heal cup would prevent this happening and also aids the driver in giving him something to push his heels against so as to "feel" the car as dynamic changes can be felt through the drivers heals.

Brakes and Brake Pedal: No issues with the capability of the brake system. Pedal felt firm and stroke was minimum as you want feedback through pressure not displacement. Only concern was that heavy braking on the initial lap combined with down shifting resulting in the rear becoming unsettled and causing the nose to dart left and right, seemed less of a problem once the tyres heated up. (Again, I'm no suspension expert but I'm sure you guys can look at everything and make some setup or mechanical changes to improve this)

Shifter: Worked every time and gave good feel. In my humble opinion a manual shifter done well is just as fast as a paddle shift, weighs less and is 10 times more reliable. Down shift displacement was nice and short but I found the up shift quite a long pull. I would also move the shifter away from the chassis and align the leaver in plane with the steering wheel. Ideally the drivers hand should simply fall off the wheel onto the leaver. This way the driver can concentrate on looking ahead and not worry about feeling for the shifter. I would also suggest looking at a "butterfly" arrangement so that when down shifting using the shift leaver, the clutch is also depressed. This reduces shifting effort and increases gearbox life. At previous competitions I've had other teams asking what type of paddle shifter we were using because we could change gear so quickly and easily. We started using that design in 2006 and haven't changed it because it works well and have been 100% reliable. I have never miss shifted once, not ever. Every Monash driver regarded it as the best driver control on the car and consequently the different/rubbish KTM shifter on the 2011 car is hated by all. Basically, get some photos of the 2010 shifter and copy it, you won't be disappointed.

Steering: Steering wheel position seemed fine and I had plenty of clearance from my legs and the gear shifter. Although the steering feedback was masked by the stiction from the front right upright, the car had better feedback than the UTS car, which had some really usual steering issues. Steering was the heaviest when compared to Monash and UTS but not unmanageable.

Driving Balance: All my previous driving has been on the Avon tyre and I didn't enjoy the feedback or the characteristics of the Goodyear tyre when driving the 2011 Monash car. If you ask too much of an Avon tyre you can just ease of the brake slightly, increasing the turn in and the car will stop under steering. With the Goodyear, if you slightly overstep the mark you get 2m of under steer into cones. I think the Goodyear is ultimately the faster tyre but its so unforgiving. If you have inexperienced drivers and a non optimised set up, I think the Avon tyres would provide a better endurance result simply because of the reduced number of cones struck. Lateral grip is one consideration, but driver confidence is another. My 2009 co-driver, who has driven the 2011 car on Goodyears, is confident that the 2010 car, wearing Avons would be faster in a practice endurance simply because of the forgiving nature of the tyre. Ask if Monash can give you an old set of Avons and see what you think. On the high-speed sweeping corners the car ultimately developed under steer which was easily kept in check by maintaining the throttle but I doubt you will ever reach this speed at comp. I could also request over steer at any time by requesting more throttle. However I had to be careful as the response was less linear than I would have liked. Dampening could also have been a bit stiffer as the car wallowed around and didn't really take a 'set' on the sustained corners.

Seat: Since driving FSAE cars I have experienced folded aluminium seats (2006) with padding, foam poured seats (2007), go kart seats (2008) and integrated carbon seats (2009 - current). Each of these seats has been an improvement on the last in terms of securing the driver within the car. Although this does not sound important, I would rate the drivers seat as the most important driver control within the entire car, with the pedal box a close second. If the driver is not comfortable and properly secured in the car, additional effort is required to restrain oneself. In 2009 all I remember being able to move was my arms and to be able to twist my head. My feet were properly secured by heel cups in the pedal box. My legs were comfortably pressed up against the nicely padded chassis bars, my body was snugly strapped into the integrated seat and my head was nicely supported by the head rest. Consequently all my effort was put into driving and not trying to hang onto the wheel etc. Please look at the current Monash seats, especially how the seat overlaps the driver, how there is a recess on the left side so that the driver can change gears and how it is reinforced. This seat will yield more points than any other part, as an FSAE driver is the largest variable in a dynamic event. If the driver is comfortable, secure and can 'feel' the car, he is confident. Confident drivers win autocross, just look at Pete Marsh. If you need two or three sizes, just cut the mould and expand the centre section. It is more work then a simple poured seat, but the product and driving result is much better. In 2010 they just made the chassis cockpit the same dimensions and just carried over the part because it worked so well. This year they just cut the mould so as to suit the narrower cockpit.

Conclusion: I am not a professional driver nor an expert on designing race cars. Please take all comments how you wish. All I have tried to do here is list my previous experiences with Monash's FSAE cars and indicate what solution worked best for us in each particular case. I hope the above can help in some small way and thanks again for the kind opportunity to drive your 2011 car.

Regards,

Tristan Atkins
Monash FSAE Alumni

[Pete Marsh]

I'll try to do this by feature on all 4 cars, rather than car by car, roughly the same as Tristan. And over a couple of posts as I find time. I'll be fairly brief, if you want more on a certain point yell out. Please don't take any offence from the feedback if it's not flatering, it's just an opinion aimed to highlight stregths and weaknesses. All 4 cars were of a high quality and fast.

Engine and throtle -
Ergo/response - all cars were easy to use the throtle, except UWA's began to hang later in the day ruining the ride for a few drivers. My foot also slipped off in either MUR or UTS, can't remember which. Control and responce in UTS is excellent and UWA very slightly behind, MUR not really (tuning I suspect) and Monash was OK but there is not a lot there to play with, so intemdiate output is not called for often.
Range - UWA all over the others for usefull range (3500 - 13500). UTS also very good but needed a gear down to match UWA for pace. MUR top end only, and Monash also seamed to like lots of shifting to get the best from it.
Power - MUR makes all the others look silly. Easily the most powerfull car, with more punch despite the + 30 or 40Kg! Hard to say between UWA and UTS but UWA definatly feels to be doing it easier in a bigger gear, and Monash's single, well it actually goes OK at really low speed, but then it struggles to tow those wings. Would have been very interesting to see it without the aero, or compare it to ECU.

Brakes -
Ergo and weighting was reasonable on all. MUR the heaviest, UWA the lightest. The track was set to reduce big stops to try to get UWA rotors through the day, and I didn't use them much.
MUR have massive scrub radius + cross weight, or perhaps uneven caster, causing some pretty wild behavior under brakes. UTS just worked, no fuss, UWA also great for me, but rubbish with hanging throtle for others, and Monash, well better than the rest with just a throtle lift, and stunning if you stood on the brakes as well! BUT the way around in the thing is to man up and don't touch them!

Shifter -
UWA all the way. Why do guys go the other way? It's so much easier to just bump it with the side of your hand for an up shift. And how nice is N1234.
MUR had a neutral light at least, and I dont remember missing a shift in it at all, but was a little hard to get a nice down shift from it. A MASSIVE improvment on last years effort.
Monash's shifter was not as bad as their drivers made out I thought. Much the same as MUR but with much better clutch weighting on down shifts, which were excellent. It lacked an upshift cut switch, which I think was the main difficulty in getting up shifts, especially in high gears.
UTS air shift was my least favorite. Impossible to get nuetral, and missed many down shifts on track (Needs a little more power). HOWEVER, with the steering issues, paddle shift was absolutly required to drive the car. The clutch pedal made hill starts pretty much impossible, even if the throw etc was sorted. A side mount hand lever would be a big improvment IMO.

Pete

[Mbirt]

Rex, the secret to that raw, unadulterated MUR horsepower is seen at 1:23 in this video, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjzLAbC1Bgc

[STAATSWANN]

would be nice to see a power curve for the cars at the car swap to compare the plot to pete's comments... i mean i know curtin's car this year put out 85HP peak (at the wheels) but without the curve that doesnt really have an context and sometimes im not completely sold by the power figures quoted by some teams haha... i did like how at the FSG 2008 comp all the cars did dyno runs... would have been kinda cool to have a car swap after that event and get a feel for how each power curve feels when your behind the wheel... anyway just thinkin outloud...

[Rex Chan]

Mbirt: haha! Yes, the Melbourne Engine team loves its hammers; when we went to the wreckers, we found this ancient looking hammer (Google "lump hammer"), and brought it home, where it was named Thor/Engine Hammer.

STAATSWANN: the Melbourne Uni 2011 car engine power/torque curve is on my fb Wall Photos here Melbourne Uni (MUR) 2011: Power/Torque Curve (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150382378398036&set=a.10150313507933036.345744.559588035&type=3). Note this is on a Heenan&Froude engine dyno at uni, connected to the output sprocket shaft by a uni-joint. More details if you ask/can't see it. The funny thing is that it doesn't actually make that much power, and that's at the sprocket. We very carefully calibrated the load cell with weights and lever arm, so we know its quite accurate.

So roughly, we have 55Nm @ 9000RPM and 52kW @ 10000RPM. Which isn't a lot.

[Rex Chan]

Pete Marsh: yes, I think we got a few comments about people's foot slipping off our throttle pedal, so it was probably us.

And we weighed in at Design at 240kg, so that's a proper weight for us (just did Tilt, so full 8L of E85, oil, water, "light" Okuma CNC wheels, fresh tyres, etc)

[STAATSWANN]

nice Rex... you have a very neat curve which is decent... in many ways a nice neat curve has many many more advantages then a messy curve with higher peak power...

i think this link will take you to the CMT dyno plot which compares our 2010 car to our 2011 car:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net...1045_328613306_n.jpg (http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/381008_301824269850961_213826348650754_1031045_328 613306_n.jpg)

these were done on a rolling road dyno so i believe its quoting from the wheels... should have the dyno tuner etc details on the link...

we show about 85HP peak which equates to approx 64kw... but like i said our curve is pretty messy... especially down low... that being said we have cleaned the curve up alot between 2010 and 2011...

we need all that power with a car weighing in at 260kg haha

really our next point of attack is weight and "bettering" our suspension system... dont think we can ever say a lack of power is our problem...

this is getting very offtopic from the car swap so i apologise...

again cheers for linking me to your curve... im pretty jealous of how neat the plot is (assuming you havent cooked the figures :P)

[Pete Marsh]

Steering-
This is the main point of difference between the cars. The variation here was huge.
Monash's steering was light and direct, and vertually free of the high G loading up that plauged their earlier cars.
UWA steering very fast around center and a little heavier than it should be, but still allows you to put the car anywhere you want.
MUR was fast and really heavy. I belive due to some bad sphericals on the RH upright. The friction is enough to lock the steering wherever you leave it, giving vertually no feel or feedback to the driver. This prevents you from ever relaxing in the car and makes it very inconsistant.
UTS has some weird tight spot on center that suddenly comes good. It also seams to load up with Gs really bad. This is the only one to really scare me. The panic of locked steering mid corner is something no driver needs.

Chassis and suspension -
Tyres - all cars are on the same tyre Goodyear 2704. While the tyre is not so forgiving as some others if you induce massive under steer, it sure does have some grip! For those that have trouble with a shaprer tyre, remember "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" and steer by force, not position.
Grip -
Monash by miles, with giant wings, then much the same from the other three, despite no aero on MUR.
Balance -
UWA, very smooth and stable. With practice, the driver can promote under or oversteer at will. Notably, it does the short slaloms very straight compared to the others.
Monash, also pretty easy to make it do what you want. Short slaloms come naturally wild and agresive but neat and straight can be coaxed from it to. Requires more driving than UWA, but excellent steering + no need to modulate power(keep it flat) make this pretty easy.
UTS + MUR, Both of these I suspect are set heavily oversteer to overcome driver induced understeer that has it's root cause in binds/friction in the steering. Both front ends would tolerate any turn rate or step input without fuss, but smooth and straight driving was close to impossible. Short slaloms by wild sliding method only, and even in the 11m it was hard to apply enough power to maintain road speed without oversteer.
Damping-
UWA, very smooth and stable.
Monash, not quite right, but I can't really say why. I suspect the relativly high unsprung weight with the aero mounting, or some weird aero seperation effect, makes the car feel choppy sometimes. Feels great at low speed though. One of the earlier cars felt a lot like it ran out of travel when loaded right up, this one not so much, but does it have progressive bump rubbers it gets onto at full aero load???
UTS, Don't remember anything bad at all, but was kind of busy with the steering.
MUR, has a little diagonal pitching in the fast corners, and quite snappy in the rear on throtle application. Has a spool though, so this may be a good thing. Maybe try adding some high speed, and removing some low speed.

Pete

[Rex Chan]

The torque curve we have is only from every 1000RPM, so we don't really know what's going on between those points (we tuned them on the dyno with the Bosch LSU 4.0/MoTeC PLM, but didn't have the torque numbers at that stage).

I think we'll try to get on Swinburne's chassis dyno in the new year, to get a number at the wheels.

Yes, the plot is very neat, but one thing you can be sure of is that these are the real numbers (the guy who took them (Kah Shen) and me did the load cell calibration a few times to get it right, and we're very careful about getting the right numbers). We were actually a bit disappointed at how "low" these numbers are, esp compared to driver feedback (2010 Driver swap and now 2011 driver swap). What I can say is that these numbers are quite a bit lower than what we can expect with the Swinburne Dyno Dynamics rolling road/chassis dyno.

Pete Marsh: do you think the lack of control may be caused by the 40mm throttle body? We get to 100kPa manifold pressure around 60-70% throttle, so only that portion is useful.

I'm not at all offended by the feedback - we don't have the drivers who can give any feedback for engine, so we just tune transients off the MoTeC mixture maps. Thus, the more feedback, the better! We have tuned our fuel map off RPM and MAP (not TPS). We do it in 1000RPM increments, and 10kPa steps respectively. However, accel enrichment is off TPS. Here's a mixture map from the 2011 driver swap: MUR 2011: Mixture Map from Driver Swap (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150450448238036&set=a.10150450448188036.367964.559588035&type=3)

Nathan Pong (dyno & track tuning guy for 2011) has aimed for LA=0.90, but that was with the Yamaha chamber muffler (104dB @ 2011 comp noise test). At the driver swap, we ran with a Yoshimura RS-5 straight through (119dB with our own meter), which may have allowed for better airflow and thus leaner mixtures.

[Pete Marsh]

@ Rex - For all the lack of nice numbers, charts etc the rolling road dyno we use has, it does have powered rollers. This lets us steady state tune all the sites around coast and trail, and building into drive. That's what's missing from yours I think. It's prob the hardest part to tune on road due to all the transients going on, so a good base map makes a world of difference. The huge throtle wont help, but why open it all the way? Just adjust the linkage to only use what you need.

Pete

[mech5496]

Great writeups guys! Hope we got something like that in Europe, maybe after FSG? Now I need some pics of shifters and seats, as you got my attention with all your comments.. Rex?! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Xavier Cheng]

Hope these help.
http://postimage.org/image/4a7v4efav/
http://postimage.org/image/58vy0n3jn/
http://postimage.org/image/mgawvdj9j/
http://postimage.org/image/r1xuc8q1x/
http://postimage.org/image/qzwc8n339/ (http://postimage.org/image/qzwc8n339/)
http://postimage.org/image/w9niufvzn/

[Pete Marsh]

Seats and ergo -
UWA by a wisker over Monash. And mainly because I've had a good fitting seat in it, which you must have. That is, you need your own seat fitting for it to be better than Monash for comfort. UWA is by far the lowest seating position, and all the controls feel right to me except the steering is just a touch too heavy for me. The interior, and drivers view, looks awsome when seated in it, just a cool place to sit. The belts are not quite right, or I just don't like the moustash bar style belts. I have to run the shoulder straps a little looser than I would like to be comfortable.
Monash's seat is really good for me, and others like it too, but I don't understand how it fits different size people? Some trickery no doubt. Controls are good and nicely weighted, but the shifter goes the wrong way. Driver adjustable pedal sled is just showing off, but very cool. They use the loop style crutch belts, which are the best IMO, but run two sets to dodge the quick adjuster rule. this is the right move I reckon. Desipte the crazy downforce, this would have been the easiest car to complete the 900 turn enduro track in.
MUR pretty good and a vast improvment on the previous car. Plenty of room but I caught an elbow on someone car, and I think it was this one. Steering is too fast, or too heavy, but with friction there you can't really tell. Completing an unduro on the FSAE-A track in this would be quite a feat, and whoever did it deserves a beer from their teammates! No bad memories of the seat or belts, so they must be OK.
UTS's rigid seat cast to an individual was really uncomfortable, (except for the individual no doubt). Not too disimilar concept from Monash, but wildly different outcome. Also foot clutch was very difficult to use. Belts felt ok I think, but as in MUR, the steering difficulties dominated the experience so other features are hard to notice/recall.

Thanks to all the teams for the drive of their cars, these swap days are great fun, and we all learn a lot from them. Sorry to MUR for not getting a go in UWA's car, and for the drivers that got it with a hanging throtle. Thanks to Jon at UTS for correctly diagnosing the problem.

Man that Monash machine sure does go around bends!

Pete

[Boffin]

So, some interesting happenings occurred on the weekend gone, which some of you may have seen.

Melbourne and Monash turned up to Swinburne on Sunday so that they could be ran on the chassis dyno we have.

This means that we have had: UTS, Melbourne and Monash ran on the same dyno, by the same operator.

I've tried to keep it as consistent as possible (only changing necessary settings, having the cars climb/move around approximately the same) and these are the results:

xxxx


And to include us in the comparison, show's why I wanted our 10/10J car there

xxxx

I'm still doing some work on it all and will be in touch with teams/guys this week, so I can figure out tractive effort Vs speed for all the cars.

[Tom Wettenhall]

Hullo, a spambot.

What have you been feeding that engine? (TS_10)

I wonder would the spike at 5500-6200 have anything to do with a few of the spins we've had from the MUR car?