FSAE TIRE TEST CONSORTIUM

[sarthak nayak]

All must be knowing that SAE INDIA is beginning its FORMULA SAE CHAPTER in INDIA called SUPRA SAE INDIA in july 1st-3rd,2011.so for the INDIAN teams who are going to start the construction of the car must have realised the importance tire data(FSAE TIRE TEST CONSORTIUM).so my team was thinking if some other teams are interested in using the same tire as ours,then we can get the tire data from FSAE TTC at $500 together,so that every teams from India can be benefitted.so i am looking for the response for this discussion from the interested teams who are willing to get the tire data.

[sarthak nayak]

All must be knowing that SAE INDIA is beginning its FORMULA SAE CHAPTER in INDIA called SUPRA SAE INDIA in july 1st-3rd,2011.so for the INDIAN teams who are going to start the construction of the car must have realised the importance tire data(FSAE TIRE TEST CONSORTIUM).so my team was thinking if some other teams are interested in using the same tire as ours,then we can get the tire data from FSAE TTC at $500 together,so that every teams from India can be benefitted.so i am looking for the response for this discussion from the interested teams who are willing to get the tire data.

[Matthew Bell]

I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed by the TTC. From their website:

"Consortium members are free to use this data in the design and construction of their FSAE entries, other school projects and related academic activities. Any publication or presentation of the tire data must acknowledge Calspan and the FSAE TTC. Individuals and teams are prohibited from donating or selling the data to any other individual, group, team or university, or posting it on the internet. Anyone wishing to obtain the data may do so by joining the FSAE TTC, regardless of their affiliation (i.e., non-FSAE teams or individuals are welcome to join the FSAE TTC, although they won't have voting rights on tire constructions to be tested). The data may not be used in any commercial application."

[OptimumG]

Here we go again.... India cheating?

[J. Vinella]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
Let them. Won't make a difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong attitude.

But no way this will pass so that is a non-issue. The consortium fails if more money is not contributed to it and the data is distributed to many teams for the price of one. The mer mention of this loses credibility to any team from this region trying to join. Sad.

This is not an exclusive club, but it does come at a very fair price.

[tP]

@ sarthak nayak

dude i think u attended the optimum g seminar at ARAI cos u seem to know about TTC and all. if u did, u should remember the number of times Claude gave a lecture about NOT cheating. why do u wanna give the whole world such a crappy impression about us indians? $500 = Rs. 22k = Rs.880 per head for a team of 25. u can't cough up 880 bucks? that's even LESS than what you're gonna pay for registration and stuff.

flavorPacket's comment really irritated me but then, we seem to ask for it with our messed up attitudes.

hope u take this the right way.

tp

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J. Vinella:

Wrong attitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I call it like I see it. If any FSAE team, from these teams just starting out to Stuttgart/TUG/Delft, were given F1-quality data with thermal maps and frequency response data etc, do you honestly think it would change their laptimes?

The simple fact is you don't need tire data until you're among the top 10 teams, and even then it's a huge challenge to use it to your advantage. For a team that never finished an endurance to ask for it is something I find ridiculous. So let them have it, as I said. It will very likely not change their performance.

Now on the ethical side of the discussion, I don't think it's all that great.

[BrandenC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:

The simple fact is you don't need tire data until you're among the top 10 teams, and even then it's a huge challenge to use it to your advantage. For a team that never finished an endurance to ask for it is something I find ridiculous. So let them have it, as I said. It will very likely not change their performance.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see how you can make this statement. Any team, even those just starting out, can use tire data to design their steering geometry, validate their caster/camber angles and justify their tire choice. I'd surmise that the top teams have gotten where they are due in large part to their successful use of tire data from the TTC.

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BrandenC:
I'd surmise that the top teams have gotten where they are due in large part to their successful use of tire data from the TTC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Branden, you'd be wrong. Delft, ETS, RMIT, and OSU all run on tires for which data does not exist. And I personally know many other teams who do not use the data they have, yet finish in the top 10 consistently. Like Geoff Pearson always says: "If you're not scoring 800 points, you don't have a car problem."

If a team is 'just starting out', like you say, the key is to build the damn thing and run it, NOT to optimize this or that. At the end of the day, every FSAE team is full of novices, even the powerhouses.

[BrandenC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:

Well Branden, you'd be wrong. Delft, ETS, RMIT, and OSU all run on tires for which data does not exist. And I personally know many other teams who do not use the data they have, yet finish in the top 10 consistently. Like Geoff Pearson always says: "If you're not scoring 800 points, you don't have a car problem."

If a team is 'just starting out', like you say, the key is to build the damn thing and run it, NOT to optimize this or that. At the end of the day, every FSAE team is full of novices, even the powerhouses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If what you're saying is true than I stand corrected. If the top teams are ignoring tire data, that gives me some hope for a better finish!

[exFSAE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I call it like I see it. If any FSAE team, from these teams just starting out to Stuttgart/TUG/Delft, were given F1-quality data... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'd be surprised what data does and doesn't exist in that series...

[Mike Cook]

We don't use the TTC data. We're fine. Most of the things you can figure out the good ole fashion way....testing, pyrometers, and eyeballs.

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BrandenC:
If the top teams are ignoring tire data, that gives me some hope for a better finish! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd advise you to reconsider this conclusion. I'm not sure why you think using data will make you faster. Testing and tuning is what makes you faster.

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exFSAE:
You'd be surprised what data does and doesn't exist in that series... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

perhaps I should have said NASCAR-quality, then. I just assumed F1 would be better than what we have...

[exFSAE]

In any event, it's possible the original poster just didn't know the whole sharing thing is frowned on.

With regard to the actual value and use of the data, it depends. Given that success in FSAE is about being less of a trainwreck than everyone else, you do not necessarily NEED tire data to have a good car. Even just having a good transient fuel tune puts you ahead of probably half the field.

Test time is always limited. In pro motorsport it's often by regulation. In FSAE it's more due to shit hitting the fan. The most successful teams at the pro level live and die by their tire data.. if you take full advantage of it, it can unlock a lot of speed that would otherwise be very difficult to pick out purely by on-track testing.

Kinda makes me want to do FSAE again with some alums and friends in industry... though it would be completely unfair and kinda pointless!

[J. Vinella]

Haha, I like how this has turned into wither the TTC data is worth anything, when what sparked the original discussion was the fact that people were trying to get the data for cheap.

Classic.

Do not get me wrong I would rather be out there testing for one day then sitting at a computer for a weeks. I know which results in a faster car. The combination of the two produces something scary.

[BrandenC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:

I'd advise you to reconsider this conclusion. I'm not sure why you think using data will make you faster. Testing and tuning is what makes you faster. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at. Nowhere did I say tire data will result in lower lap times or make a car faster.

As a relative newcomer, I see FSAE not as simple a race. Instead, I see it as an engineering challenge for students to apply knowledge gained in the classroom to a real world situation. Now if your ultimate objective is building the fastest car, I'm sure you could disregard data (tire data, kinematics etc.) and spend a lot of time testing and tuning. Without a doubt you could end up with an extremely fast and well set up car, but have little understanding of why it is fast or the physical principles underlying its success.

On the other hand, you could create even a simple static vehicle model and determine load cases during typical maneuvers. Couple these load cases with tire data and it is possible to gain a more comprehensive understanding of why certain changes make a car respond better in certain circumstances. In no way will this even come close to replacing testing and tuning, but it should provide a team with a better place to start from than just shooting in the dark. I maintain that with data, teams are better able to justify their designs, hopefully resulting in a better overall finish (even if lap times aren't affected). Just understanding the trends in the tire data has been very useful, from a personal perspective.

As a final note, I'd say that there is equally as much to learn from testing. The dynamic nature of these cars produce results that are very difficult to quantify/calculate.

[vandit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OptimumG:
Here we go again.... India cheating? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I wonder when the chinese are gonna take this burden from us in FSAE ...http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


on the serious note . I seriously doubt all Indian teams can efficiently use Tire data. There are only couple of teams who manages to run decent endurance laps, few others who are qualified for every event in competition and the remaining who manages to get their car released from various customs around the world.

Tires sure are the most important things... highlighted in initial pages of Milliken, Smith, Adams etc. but the later pages highlight more things which should be taken seriously....

[carbon_black]

How many teams utilise tyre data anyway?

Registered teams: approx 250.
TTC4 Contents Downloaded: approx 150 times.

I'm not sure how valid it is, as I don't recall when the R4 data came out. It is possible that there are teams who have purchased the data, but haven't started a new design cycle yet.

[Vaibhav Kumar]

Round 4 raw data came out a couple of months ago. TTC did not send a DVD this time. Instead, the data was to be downloaded from TTC forum.
I guess less number of downloads is because of the fact that neither the MRA model nor the Stackpole data is given for round 4 yet. Another reason could be that the teams are using the same tyres for which data was already given in round 3.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> How many teams utilise tyre data anyway? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess everyone who joins the consortium utilises the data to some extent. This being our first year with tyre data, I guess we have not utilised it as well as we should have,but then you have to start somewhere.
We have used tyre data to determine pro/anti ackermann, scrub radius, mechanical trail etc. Also, brake front/rear bias decision was done using tyre data since we knew the maximum longitudinal force the tyres could offer for the FZ we have during braking. A lot of things like yaw moment for a given steering angle and similar graphs are now plotted since we have the data. I could not think of more things that i could do. Any suggestions are welcome. appreciated.

[DougMilliken]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...then we can get the tire data from FSAE TTC at $500 together,so that every teams...can be benefitted... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry I'm late to this thread, but maybe this is a good time to bump it to the top of the forum. A few points to think about on the eve of the Michigan competition:

* The Tire Test Consortium organizers chose the wording of the TTC license carefully. As at least one person noted, the TTC test tires when we have money, and (so far), money comes only from new members.

* Current member teams lose out on future data if their membership is "diluted" by data shared in violation of the license (in other words, think about who you are pissing off!)

* This is not the first time someone has proposed to violate the TTC license to save themselves a few bucks, I hear about it every couple of years. From memory, I believe that at least three continents are represented. It appears that there are dishonest (and/or stupid??) people all over the world.

* Because the list of TTC members is posted, the judges can easily verify if a team is a member (or they can check with me if it's a new member--the list on the website may be slightly out of date).

* I can't speak for other Design Judges or the SAE. Personally, if someone from a team that was not a TTC member was found to be using TTC data, I would argue strongly for zero points in Design, or an even larger penalty.

-- Doug Milliken, volunteering for the TTC

[Big Bird]

I saw a reference above to the tyres we have used and the lack of data available for them. True, specific data wasn't available for the exact tyres used. But valuable information about general trends in FSAE tyre behaviour can be collected by analyzing the data that does exist. I learnt heaps about trends such as the percentage drop-off of friction coefficient with load, and sensitivity to Ackermann angle mid-corner, through analysing the tyre data that was available.

I've been frustrated by teams over the years who dismissed the data we did have as completely irrelevant because it wasn't specifically for our tyres. It sounds pretty hollow when a design judge asks us what we did with the data and we have nothing to offer. Its the old "everything wasn't perfect so we did nothing" excuse.

After all, if you are one of these optimization junkies who wants the data so you can predict the friction coefficient to 5 decimal places, you are going to be pretty disappointed. You are never going to replicate that exact data in real world testing, because you are never going to replicate the exact same conditions. The value is in the trends of behaviour. And you can design a perfectly decent car based on knowledge of general trends.

And to the OP, the TTC organizers have gone to great trouble to make this data available to us, at a highly discounted price. Please honour their efforts by sourcing it appropriately.

[Thomas MuWe]

On Topic:
I see the point that new or poor (in terms of money available) teams would like to save 500$ for the TTC - data. But I think it is really really important point that the TTC makes it possible to have data which would not be available for everyone - if he/she would like to use it or not. And the price is acceptable for every team all over the world which would like to build a car. If you have other problems like not enough CAD-resources or kinematics software (and no time to build your own model), don't buy the data. But if you would like to know something about the tires available in FSAE, then buy (!!!) it yourself. It is worth it - especially for someone who is new to the topic of suspension design.
That the data are coming from a labaratory is a different story.

Off topic:
Guys I know that you would build the best cars only by your experience, but your FSAE expercience did not start last year, you maybe can not remember how you started. Maybe you were a natural talent but I seriously doubt that during your first year in FSAE you knew all about tires - what's important for ackermann, how much camber you can use, how sensitive your tires are for load changes, etc....
Give these guys something like an Idol and tell them that they at least should look at these data and try to understand what the meaning is.

Cheers,

Thomas

Alumni joanneum racing graz
suspension jr08/jr08evo