HELP SAVE FSAE AT COLORADO STATE

[T. Neff]

Hello!

Colorado State FSAE needs your help! The administrators in Colorado State's Mechanical Engineering Department are going to prohibit Formula SAE from participating in the senior design practicum next year unless we can do something about it. This is extremely urgent since plans are being made now for the fall semester.

No other undergraduate experience involves such intense levels of design integration, system management, and engineering as Formula SAE. Students with FSAE experience are highly regarded as the most prepared for the job market, and most of our students are hired out of school immediately.

We are trying to explain the value of FSAE by getting letters from our alumni, our sponsors, and our contacts in industry, stating what FSAE students gain over the rest of engineering students, and why they make excellent workers in the field of engineering.

If anybody on the forum is an FSAE alum, or works in the mechanical engineering industry, we would really appreciate it if you could write a brief paragraph or blurb stating how FSAE has helped you in your career or how your company prefers to recruit FSAE grads. Feedback from design judges and organizers would also be very helpful and appreciated.

We greatly appreciate your support on this, we have had a great year and will see you at Michigan, hopefully not for the last time.

Ram Racing

[T. Neff]

Hello!

Colorado State FSAE needs your help! The administrators in Colorado State's Mechanical Engineering Department are going to prohibit Formula SAE from participating in the senior design practicum next year unless we can do something about it. This is extremely urgent since plans are being made now for the fall semester.

No other undergraduate experience involves such intense levels of design integration, system management, and engineering as Formula SAE. Students with FSAE experience are highly regarded as the most prepared for the job market, and most of our students are hired out of school immediately.

We are trying to explain the value of FSAE by getting letters from our alumni, our sponsors, and our contacts in industry, stating what FSAE students gain over the rest of engineering students, and why they make excellent workers in the field of engineering.

If anybody on the forum is an FSAE alum, or works in the mechanical engineering industry, we would really appreciate it if you could write a brief paragraph or blurb stating how FSAE has helped you in your career or how your company prefers to recruit FSAE grads. Feedback from design judges and organizers would also be very helpful and appreciated.

We greatly appreciate your support on this, we have had a great year and will see you at Michigan, hopefully not for the last time.

Ram Racing

[thewoundedsoldier]

Is the CSU formula-hybrid team on the chopping block as well?

I can ask our senior design professor to write a letter explaining why he feels the project fits within the scope of senior design here at SJSU.

Best of luck, it sounds like you guys are already showing your mettle by fighting for your program rather than laying down and accepting the decision.

[MechanicalChris]

It might be worth mentioning the image of the University and it's impact on potential future students...

I know I chose my University over more "prestigious" Universities for the simple fact that I liked their FSAE team, not the "status" of the uni and to be honest, I don't regret my choice one bit.

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T. Neff:
Hello!

Colorado State FSAE needs your help! The administrators in Colorado State's Mechanical Engineering Department are going to prohibit Formula SAE from participating in the senior design practicum next year unless we can do something about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does removing FSAE from the Sr. design course prevent you from building a car? Hundreds of students compete (and win) every year without any chance of class credit.

[Boffin]

Good luck to you guys.

We faced it here with the IC team coping the axe, and the electric team continuing.

Unfortunately everything we did fell on deaf ears and as such IC FSAE is dead here.

I've got a 10,000 word proposal which we put together to try and save us. It may give you some idea on what to write, if you want it.

I hope you guys succeed.

[BrendonD]

Formula SAE got me two job offers in a tough market and my cumulative classwork spanning two majors accounted for basically nothing in my interviews. Who do I need to send a note to?

[thewoundedsoldier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How does removing FSAE from the Sr. design course prevent you from building a car? Hundreds of students compete (and win) every year without any chance of class credit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reality is that current team members are planning on utilizing the car for their senior project. If they are unable to do so, then they will need to begin a different project to satisfy their department's requirements. That other project (nee, "the other woman") will take time away from the car. The development of the car will suffer.

Obviously teams get by without senior design credit, but I think it shows a lack of appreciation from the department/college of engineering/university. Interesting theme going on lately.

[flavorPacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thewoundedsoldier:
The reality is that current team members are planning on utilizing the car for their senior project. If they are unable to do so, then they will need to begin a different project to satisfy their department's requirements. That other project (nee, "the other woman") will take time away from the car. The development of the car will suffer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Balancing multiple time-consuming projects is an even better experience than doing FSAE alone.

When I was in school, we fought hard to PREVENT FSAE from becoming a senior design project, as it attracts lazy people to the team who would never be there if they weren't getting credit.

Also, going to class is for sissies.

[Joe17]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thewoundedsoldier:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How does removing FSAE from the Sr. design course prevent you from building a car? Hundreds of students compete (and win) every year without any chance of class credit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reality is that current team members are planning on utilizing the car for their senior project. If they are unable to do so, then they will need to begin a different project to satisfy their department's requirements. That other project (nee, "the other woman") will take time away from the car. The development of the car will suffer.

Obviously teams get by without senior design credit, but I think it shows a lack of appreciation from the department/college of engineering/university. Interesting theme going on lately. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Truth^
If I got class credit for fsae, i'd be speechless

[Tom W]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cd632:
It might be worth mentioning the image of the University and it's impact on potential future students...

I know I chose my University over more "prestigious" Universities for the simple fact that I liked their FSAE team, not the "status" of the uni and to be honest, I don't regret my choice one bit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you chose USyd? :/

[Jersey Tom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by flavorPacket:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T. Neff:
Hello!

Colorado State FSAE needs your help! The administrators in Colorado State's Mechanical Engineering Department are going to prohibit Formula SAE from participating in the senior design practicum next year unless we can do something about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does removing FSAE from the Sr. design course prevent you from building a car? Hundreds of students compete (and win) every year without any chance of class credit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes it means disallowing use of campus facilities (machine shop, welding shop) and space for the FSAE project.. as was the case at CU when the FSAE project was canceled.

I'm more curious what the stated reasons are for canning CSU FSAE as a senior design project.. and if its just canning it for credit, or all together. Need more background info here. Seems a little odd given the 14000 sqft facility for motorsport activity.

[Bcohen5055]

As a 3 year memeber of the CSU FSAE team I may be able to provide a little more clarification.

Up untill this year FSAE has been apart of the Senior Design practicum. About 3 years ago, after one failed team things were restructured and we developed a club orginization allong with senior design. In order to be on the senior desing team you must attend at least one competition and be on the team for at least one year prior. This developed a great legacy and a lot of young, strong engineers. We have consistantly improved each year at competition and have been quickly moving in the right direction. This year we were not a senior design group due to not having enough senior members on the team. Next year we have a great group of seniors that have already done some great planning for the project. The administration may not allow those students to work on the project for senior design. Not being a senior design project means losing these senior students to other projects and can also detrimentally hurt our funding and growth as a team. There is also a good chance that we would also lose our work space which would be a huge blow to the program.

[RobbyObby]

What stops you from doing your senior design project on "Suspension design of a Formula-Style race car" or "Intake design of a 600cc air-restricted engine" and simply applying that to the Formula SAE car? SInce you said you didn't do it as a senior project last year, you obviously have shop access available even if you it isnt a senior project.
I am a firm nonbeliever of doing "Formula SAE" as a senior design project, as has been done the past 3 years at our school. All you end up with is a large group of students with maybe a few doing most of the presentations and reports, and everyone else just along for credit. And as Flavorpacket already mentioned, you attract team members with no automotive background or passion that want to hop on because its a "cool" project that they can get credit for.
Just my $0.02.

[Gabe]

Another CSU alumn/current member here.

The motorsports program here at CSU has fallen apart, we do have this amazing facility, but it's on route to get taken over by various personnel and programs (actually it has already started).

Unfortunately, at our school the senior projects must be done in a group format, and you can not "do/make-up" your own project. They give you a list to select from and you pick your top 3.

I know it is possible to do FSAE without getting credit (as many of you teams are doing) but the big fear of having it removed from senior design is the fact that we have a very very big chance of loosing our facilities and any recognition from the university at all. We are in the process of doing everything we can to fight and prevent this.

Thanks for any help and input!

[RANeff]

As the other guys have said, we are in the thick of it. The professors here do not believe there is high level learning and engineering going on through participation in fsae; how jaded can they be? They also believe noone is getting jobs through the program, however almost our entire team has landed internships and jobs soley due to FSAE and its rigorous practium.

Unfortunately, next year if we do not have senior design status, we will very likely lose ALL university support, and our workspace.

If anyone wishes to send us info/letters/help, please do so to:

CSUFSAE@Gmail.com

We have a fighting chance, so all the help we can get is greatly appreciated!

[Michael Royce]

RANeff, Gabe, bCohen and all at CSU,
Speaking as a former, now retired, senior manager in the auto industry, please tell your university faculty that at the OEM's and suppliers, Tier 1 on down, if an engineering graduate applies for a job with Formula SAE (or Formula Student in Europe) on their resume, they go IMMEDIATELY from Pile 1 into Pile 2. In fact in some companies, I have heard that that they will not even look at an application without Formula, or perhaps Baja SAE, on the student's resume! Now when you get to Pile 2, it is up to the individual students. Just having FSAE on the resume will not guarantee a job, but it certainly goes a long, long way. While the technical background you pick up designing and building an FSAE car is important, the reason industry wants young people with this experience is for the "soft skills", the management skills you learn in the programme. Things like project planning, budgeting, teamwork, and conflict resolution, to name a few! That last one always raises a few eyebrows! But it is true, isn't it! Even with the best faculty, these are things that CANNOT be taught in the classroom.

While my experience is in the auto industry, I hear that the aerospace industry feels the same way. Boeing and Lockheed Martin are looking for people with this background. We even have a former member of the Cornell team and current Chairman of the FSAE Rules Committee, now working at SpaceX. I can go even further and say that employers in general engineering are hearing about the attributes of FSAE graduates and are looking more and more for people with it in their resumes.

The US Naval College and the Air Force Academy both have active programmes, and in spite of the other demands on the cadets' time, firmly believe that Formula is an educational benefit. The same applies "down under" at ADFA, the Australian Defence Force Academy.

If it would help, I am more than willing to talk to your dean or other members of your faculty, because I believe in this programme. Just PM me. Suzanne and I will be traveling and at Formula Hybrid and with Formula Hybrid at the Indianapolis Speedway starting tomorrow, but I will be taking my laptop with me.

Good luck in your quest.

[ConcreteWing]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thewoundedsoldier:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How does removing FSAE from the Sr. design course prevent you from building a car? Hundreds of students compete (and win) every year without any chance of class credit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reality is that current team members are planning on utilizing the car for their senior project. If they are unable to do so, then they will need to begin a different project to satisfy their department's requirements. That other project (nee, "the other woman") will take time away from the car. The development of the car will suffer.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose I'm a bit jaded on this subject, but honestly I feel Formula SAE/Formula Student is/should be an extracurricular activity.

Dealing with a competing academic project is part of the experience, and lends its self to the project planning, teamwork, and conflict resolution skills, which Michael mentioned.

Be thankful that your senior design project (regardless of what it is) and class work in general are related, to varying extents, to the design & construction of the formula car.

That alone is a luxury to some of us....

Regardless my question is what steps are you taking to prevent this. If your professors don't feel that you're participating in a high-level learning and engineering program, then what do you have to show them to make them believe otherwise.

IME professors are much more open if you talk to them and show them what you've done. Show them what you're working on, show them the progression, show them what you've referenced and what you're learning. If you rely to heavily on the testimony of others, you run the risk of them assuming you have nothing to show for yourself.

For example, how much do you think a group of professors cares about an employer saying that they are more likely to hire someone with formula car experience, when they have worked at (or have friends who work at) companies with no FSAE alums? This is weak unless it can be backed up with hard data. (e.g. Over the past x years, Y% of students at our university who participated in FSAE had jobs within 6 months of graduation, compared to Z% who did not have FSAE experience.)

I'm not saying that testimony doesn't help, but it can't stand on its own. It really shouldn't make up any sizeable portion of your argument.

Hmm... I'm starting to ramble. In summary testimonials are for peddling pills to insecure men on infomercials, not for making a solid argument to an educated individual.

Regardless of my opinions on the subject, I wish you luck.