Lanthanated vs Ceriated on Aluminum [Archive]

Jersey Tom

10-18-2006, 08:53 AM

Curious what the rest of you thought. Personally I say on any squarewave or advanced squarewave TIG, Ceriated is the way to go for sheet aluminum welding. Just turn the balance way up (8-9). Ground to a point with a .025" flat. The stability and control blow pure or zirconiated out of the water.

That said I've heard really good stuff about 2% Lanthanated, but haven't been able to find it in any stores in Boulder. Anyone dabble with the blue band?

I might add I stick to 3/32" electrodes for aluminum sheet around 1/16" thick. Takes the heat really well, minimal end balling.

Jersey Tom

10-18-2006, 08:53 AM

Analogue

10-19-2006, 02:51 PM

I agree, zirconiated loses the point too easily and lacks directionality. It's great on thick stuff, but if there's thick sections of welded aluminum on an SAE car, it probably doesn't belong there.

I have been known to use 1/16" ceriated electrodes on 1/16" Al sheet, but only if the weld must be tiny or have nothing sticking out the back. Otherwise, I'll use 3/32" and burn a little hotter.

Pure is dead, as is thoriated.

I used to think that ceriated was great on 4130 too, but now I use lanthanated and usually a 3/32." I grind a bit of a flat on it for aluminum, and sharpen all the way for steel. It seems like I should be using a 1/16" tungsten for thinwall chromemoly, but I get better results with the bigger tungsten.

In summary, I don't notice much difference between the ceriated and lanthanated. I think the lanthanated is more general purpose, but the ceriated has it's moments.

Keith

Mike Sadie

10-21-2006, 08:33 AM

We use 2% thoriated for 4130, and we dont have any problems with it. What do you use that is better? We typically use pure for aluminum of all sizes, but it sounds like ill be trying out some ceriated. What percent ceriated do you use?

Mike

KU_Racing

10-21-2006, 10:28 AM

We are still kickin it old school- thoriated on steel, usually pure on aluminum (ceriated if its thin, but the only ceriated we have is my personal supply.. so we use that sparingly). I almost never use 3/32 electrodes any more, unless we are doing fixtures that are very thick. Aluminum is almost always 1/16, and steel is either 1/16th or .040. I greatly prefer the better arc control of the smaller electrodes.

Jersey Tom

10-21-2006, 01:02 PM

Yea I use .063 or .040 on the steel on the car. Usually Thoriated or Ceriated, its easy to find.

On Aluminum I like the .094 2% Ceriated just because it takes the heat real well and the end doesn't ball up at all. I've been told Lanthanated takes the heat better and I could probably go down to .063. In fact I might try that right now.

Pure is dead for sure IMO, unless you're stuck on an oolld sinewave machine. Its nice that the Ceriated and Lanthated work for both aluminum and steel. Don't have to stock many electrodes.

Jersey Tom

11-04-2006, 09:22 PM

And I'll add.. 1/8" filler rod can be pretty sweet for fillet welds.

1/16" for tacking sheet aluminum butt welds or open corner welds. Also for running butt welds.

3/32" for open corner welds and tacking/running lap welds, tacking fillets.

1/8" for running fillets.

Works well for me.

KU_Racing

11-05-2006, 11:26 PM

definately agree on the filler recommendations. I usually try to use the biggest filler rod possible with the weld arrangement- 3/32 for heavy fillets, outside corners, and running laps. 1/16th for , tacking most arrangements (I like to weld right over my tack welds, so they usually end up tiny; if I have a long weld and want to stop and reset at each tack, I will use 1/8th and make them fatter). steel is a different story.. usually use the smallest rod I can find, especially on stainless with tight gaps. We only stock 308 rod in .028.

Jersey Tom

11-06-2006, 07:07 AM

I'll have to see if I can find some of that. Though I think we got some down around that size.

.045 70S-2 is nice for chassis. 1/16" at most.

3 years ago I told myself I'd never get into welding..

John Stimpson

11-07-2006, 09:42 PM

I've never tried the ceriated or lanthanated tungstens, only pure and thoriated. I've come to use 2% thoriated on aluminum, steel, stainless and titanium, never had a problem.

What advantage does the cer/lan have over thoriated?

Jersey Tom

11-07-2006, 10:25 PM

Mostly just that theyre not radioactive. They were both developed round the same time as a non-radioactive replacement for thoriated. My hunch is that 2% lanthanated is gonna take heat a bit better than the ceriated or even thoriated, and running AC I don't want that tip balling up at all.

Was welding up an intercooler the other day, had to up the amps to 140-ish. The 3/32 ceriated was spitting a bit, which I attribute to not taking the heat well and a poor grind.

Parker

11-08-2006, 08:48 AM

What exactly are "rare earth" electrodes used for? I have been browsing the Grainger site looking for things we would need and came across these.

Jersey Tom

11-08-2006, 09:09 AM

The grey band stuff? Hell if I know. They're hard to come by anyway. I wouldn't bother.

Realistically on a squarewave machine, a box of 1/16" and 3/32" 2% Lanthanated (or Ceriated or Thoriated.. and that would be my order of preference) should last your team a year.

They should last indefinately but there's always the newer guys dunking the electrode into molten steel or aluminum pretty regularly.

John Stimpson

11-08-2006, 10:52 AM

Interesting...

I rather like the "micro-ball" you get on the end of the red tungsten, while running on AC. I do find it takes a nice grind such that the ball is formed centered and symmetrical on the tip of the tungsten.

As far as tungsten longevity: I've found that as long as you grind on a dedicated wheel, are welding on nice clean material, and of course, don't dip the tungsten, you can go all day with a red tungsten with no regrind.

I dunno...maybe I oughtta try the lanthanated, but red has always treated me great!

Analogue

11-08-2006, 04:30 PM

The ceriated I used had a grey band, but keep in mind the colors are not standardized. Orange can be ceriated or 4% thoriated.

The disadvantage of thoriated on aluminum is the spitting-- and the radioactivity. I have also seen ceriated spit.

Lanthanated does seem to be the most universal. 2 sizes of that would be a good choice for any team starting out.

Keith

Alan

11-08-2006, 08:25 PM

I took a 4 credit TIG welding course when I was in community college. I was taught to weld aluminum with 2% thoriated. We would take a piece of copper or brass, put the machine in DC reverse, and purposely ball up the end with a diameter just slightly larger than the diameter of the electrode. It's been so long I forgot why but it worked well for me. But then again this was in 1999 and I haven't touched a welder since I left Kettering in 2003. Maybe some advances have been made since then?

Jersey Tom

11-08-2006, 11:34 PM

The balled end is still standard I want to say for thicker section aluminum, or sinewave machines. Zirconiated balls up a lot.

For thin stuff.. .032 - .065 sheet.. the tighter arc focus from a pointed electrode works great for me.

Apparently the advanced squarewaves where you can up the AC freq to 100-120 Hz makes it even tighter and is a dream to weld with.

Alan

11-08-2006, 11:53 PM

I've only ever used a sinewave machine. Maybe that's why I learned the way I did.

KU_Racing

11-09-2006, 12:21 PM

Im pretty sure Tom is right about the balled-end technique being used for thick sections or sinewave equipment. After trying some things out as a result of this post, i think it will be lanthanated from here on out for me. holds a hone, takes the heat well, excellent arc control.

Parker

12-20-2006, 04:56 PM

What do you guys think about those chemical sharperers for the tungsten?

we have an old Miller Econotig sinewave machine, and it is pretty hard to AC weld without balling the tip, no matter what the electrode size. even if you sharpen it, it will ball itself up. I still havent been able to weld together any thin Al sheet yet though.

Brian Evans

12-21-2006, 10:00 AM

The tip balls up due to heat, so keeping the heat down with retain the sharpened tip longer. Rule of thumb is one amp per thou of material thickness. It takes a while to learn how with keep the bead steady with minimum heat.

Brian

lporter

01-18-2007, 07:16 AM

For those having troubling finding welding shops that stock lanthanated tungsten, McMaster carries 1.5% lanthanated electrodes from .040 to 5/32". Part number for 1/16" is 8000A62, $15.10/ten pack.