Do Engineers Dream of Electric Cars?

[Wesley]

Hello all,

With all the hype about electric cars, and with all the new models, new designs and new ideas emerging for electric cars, I figured I'd make a post and see where engineers with an automotive bent stand on the issue.

My question is, why do you think that the public doesn't like electric cars?

There are a few reasons that I've thought of (some of which are well known,) and in a nutshell:

Price: Because electric cars are not produced in large numbers, they cannot compete with the economies of scale that ICE cars benefit from.

Range: Electric cars are crippled. They cannot drive 400 miles, fill up in 5 minutes, and drive 400 more miles. It is an inherent flaw in the energy storage technology, and battery technology is far behind the power of hydrocarbons.

Performance: Most electric cars can't even get out of their own way. This goes hand in hand with range, and is a complete limitation of the energy storage technology.

Buyer Expectation: People resist buying something that looks like a step backwards, even if it's a step backwards that leads you forwards. Electrons are magical and hard to understand, whereas ICE's have been part of the countries mythos and culture for almost 100 years.

I also think car manufacturers are building electric cars that are basically ICE cars with fuel tanks and engines removed and batteries and motors added - do you think a paradigm shift is needed to design cars around an electric platform instead of one that has existed for years to service the power system of an internal combustion engine?

Basically I'm trying to get a practical feel for why electric cars are so frowned upon, and I wanted to get a bigger scope from a group of engineers.

Why do you think electric cars suck?

[Jordan Yeomans]

Im sure some people don't like electric cars because they are so different from what they are used to and love.

People just love the sound of an accelerating V8 or turbo charged WRX. Any mainstream car race just would not be the same without the sound and atmosphere.

Also, the power curve of electric cars is so different to combustion engines as well as less power etc etc..

At this point, we are so far advanced with the combustion engine and so many people just love driving them they don't want to change to an electric car.

Yes, an electric car will get the job done in a similar practical manner (maybe slightly less as stated above) but its the way they drive compared to what people are used to that I think is the major disadvantage.

Just my view, im interested to see what other people think

[Ben K]

Also--some people think of the environmental problems all those spent batteries will have....

Better Battery tech = more electric cars.

[RyMan]

My question is, why do you think that the public doesn't like electric cars?


They do not provide equal or better value to the customer than an ICE vehicle. That is the bottom line for the mass market. There are time and opportunity costs associated with the current generation of electric cars in addition to the increased purchase price that the consumer at large cannot justify. Yes there will be those priveledged few who can justify or ignore the costs mentioned above but that is a niche market. Tesla is operating in said niche with a performance roadster that costs as much as a brand new ZR-1. Which would you rather spend your $100,000 on? Not trying to say that either of these are mainstream consumer vehicles, just illustrating the disparity in value for the customer between electric and ICE vehicles. I personally want the best performance/$ and for the time being ICE vehicles trump electric.


do you think a paradigm shift is needed to design cars around an electric platform instead of one that has existed for years to service the power system of an internal combustion engine?

Yes. ICE vehicles are best suited to have a single powerplant that distributes the power it generates to the wheels via transmission, diff, transfer case, transaxle, etc. With an electric vehicle you can put a motor at each wheel if you wanted. I'll defer to someone who competes in Formula Electric to provide more details on electric motor integration, before I get into trouble. I don't really know dick about energy storage systems either other than they need to recharge faster and increase capacity. The reason I got into vehicle dynamics was so I would be relatively insulated from powerplant changes.

[Wesley]

Most of the engineers I have talked to agree on those same points - battery technology isn't there yet, and people aren't used to the way electric cars drive.

The first problem is one that will correct with time - the electric car at present is in a stage of development that mirrors, roughly, 1950 in terms of advancement and efficiency. The problem with having a currently more economical solution is was makes the situation so Catch-22. To make electric cars better you need a market, but to create the market you need to make electric cars better. On top of that, stringent emissions and manufacturing laws were generated, for the most part, on the same pace as the development of the car itself - so not only is the electric car catching up with performance requirements, but it can't get away with the initial high level of pollution that ICE cars benefited from.

I think that's the big problem electric cars face. When the combustion vehicle came out in the 1900's, there was nothing like it. The horse was the closest comparison, and the car far outperformed horses in terms of ease of care, durability, and longevity. That coupled with cheap Texas oil made the car rocket into the lead.

The issue is now we have to compete with a century of R&D and play catch-up with the trillions of dollars that have been spent on vehicles. The majority of modern electric car tech is a byproduct of advances made in the Apollo era.

So ultimately, at its core, it seems that the electric car is an issue of economics and marginal utility, compounded by low buyer confidence.

[Doughnut]

I agree with Wesley.... Economics has a lot to do with it. But at this point of time, it also comes down to where all that electricity is really coming from.

Only about 18% of the total energy we produce comes from renewables. Couple that with what Ben said about disposing off used batteries and you can't stop thinking if battery tech really is, in the truest sense of the term, "ecologically viable"? Not at the moment, the way I see it. And that's the reason why there's such a big outrage against electric cars.

You get less for what you shell out..... huge snob value alright, but it's expensive, impractical and when you look behind the obvious.. what you see is that you really aren't helping the environment all that much.

From what I've read, I believe hydrogen will take over in the long run...

[Superfast Matt McCoy]

Full Disclosure: I work for an electric car company.

Price: wait two years for the Nissan Leaf, Electric Smart, Volt, Model S...

Range: I think range anxiety is way overblown. I put a lot of miles on my car and I think once I’ve gone more than 200 miles in a day, and that was between LA and SF where there are a lot of EV charging stations. People think of EV charging like they think of fueling up a car, when they should think of it like charging your cell phone: you plug it in at night whether its empty or not and it's full in the morning. Plus, there are a lot of really promising battery technologies like lithium air out there that could increase energy density 10 fold and bump ev range to 2000 miles. Then the equation flops and refueling a gasoline car becomes the hassle.

Performance: Go test drive a Tesla Roadster.

Buyer expectation: h t t p : / / green.autoblog.com/2010/06/20/smart-move-trial-shows-majority-of-people-who-drive-evs-get-hook/

As far as the whole “electricity comes from coal” argument: when viewed from well to wheel, electric cars have half the greenhouse gas emissions of hybrids. And if you graph the percent of electricity coming from renewable, there is a clear trend. Also, the batteries are recyclable.

I think electric cars are awesomely fun and have huge potential. They are also fantastically simple. Our motor has one moving part. No oil changes, no timing belt, no fuel system, no exhaust with o2 sensors and cats, no transmission.

The IC engine is a polished turd. Really polished; 100 years of engineers buffing it out to a shine so glossy you could shave in it. But it's still fundamentally a turd. A lot of electric cars are coming out in the next couple years and while a few of them will be less than stellar, at least one of them will be the next Prius. I know there are not a lot of Priuses driving around in Oklahoma or Texas, but out here in LA they are everywhere.

It’s good for guys like us too. These cars have batteries hung underneath so the cg is absurdly low. We can squeeze out 300 hp from an electric motor the size of a motorcycle engine and we don’t need a transmission. Wait til someone sticks a second motor in the front of a Model S and takes it to the Nurburgring. I like a roaring V8 as much as the next guy but $50,000 supercar performance by any other propulsion will sound just as sweet.

[Zac]

I think for a lot of people's needs, you need to get the range of an EV up to about 5-600 miles or get the recharge cycle times way down. While I admit that I don't do 300+ mile trips often, it is pretty nice to just be able to get in my car and drive to see my family several states away.

The range thing is the whole reason most of the major manufacturers are monkeying around with fuel cell vehicles at all. At it's core, a fuel cell is just a battery, albeit one where the fuel and oxidizer are being constantly replenished. It's one really complicated way to get around the recharge cycle time issue present with most EV's.

That said, in terms of fun, an EV doesn't sound too bad. I like instantaneous torque and low maintenance, but I could do without the high curb weights, inertias, and costs. I know one upstart company is trying to market a nearly 3 ton 4 seater with "snap understeer" as a sportscar.

At some point in the next 10 years I'll probably be all about driving an EV, but for right now I'll take the polished turd of an IC engine. On big ticket items like cars, early adopters tend to get screwed.

[thewoundedsoldier]

This past year I managed the Formula-Hybrid team at my school. While building an electric race car doesn't necessarily make me any more clever than the next guy, here is my opinion of the problem:

1) It's a load of rubbish that battery technology is not there yet. I would argue just the opposite; that the battery market is moving too fast for the EV market. New battery technology becomes obsolete within a year. How can a manufacturer put technology in a car knowing that it will be ancient by the time it hits the market? (this is not to say that current battery technology is incapable of providing 300-400 mile ranges)

2) Standardization is the key to solving the aforementioned. If SAE were to create real standards for battery enclosure/integration, it would go a long way to soothing the consumer. I would be much more ready to buy an electric knowing that I don't have to depend on the car manufacturer for my future energy storage desires.

3) EVs are simply too expensive. I think that Honda has done a good job of showing Ford and GM that you sell cars by making them affordable. Throw out the bells & whistles, and make a car that gets the job done reliably. Even today, american car manufacturers can't put out a product as cheap and reliable as the Honda Civic/Accord. Get a trustworthy EV under $20,000 and you'll be in business.

4) It's obvious that american car manufacturers have no market left. If people want performance they are going to a European performance car. If they want reliability, they are going to a Japanese compact car. I don't see companies in the states being competitive in either market. I find it a wonderful opportunity to seize the EV market. The truth is that oil is not good for America, but electricity is. We have enough coal to last several hundred years by even the worst predictions. Wind and solar are also growing and if you look at a solar overlay of the planet, you'll see that the U.S.A. is the Saudi Arabia of sunlight.

I wish our nation's car market would combine thoughts 2 and 4 and once again try to become an automotive leader--not a follower.

[Demon Of Speed]

I am currently not a fan of electric cars, however they have a lot more potential than fuel cell vehicles.

As a vehicle dynamics/structures/aerodynamics guy I don't design stuff that makes the car go, i design stuff that makes it go faster. So, I don't really care what the power plant is, cause I will still have a job.

wow, thans to this forum. It brought me new knowledge and ideas. Thanks!


________________
making beats (http://www.beatmakingmachine.com )

I love hybrid cars. Not only for the efficiency but i like the way it helps us for a greener world!

___________
making beats (http://www.beatmakingmachine.com )

[Prof McCarthy]

Over the year 2009-2010 our Southern California Section of SAE, we had engineers from Toyota, Mazda, GM and Honda discuss the future of automobiles, and the answer was the same...electric hybrids.

Racing with alternative power plants is a wide open challenge. Test your vehicle at our 2011 UCI Energy Invitational: http://mechanicaldesign101.com...energy-invitational/ (http://mechanicaldesign101.com/2011-uci-energy-invitational/)

[Ken_D]

Frankly I'm quite surprised that diesel hybrids haven't been seen or heard all that much. Higher efficiency, less complexity, and oodles of torque at low rpm's. A gasoline engine may be tuned to give 30 highway mpg in an average car, but a diesel will do 40-50+ in that same car. Why throw away a 33-66% increase in fuel efficiency for something like a hybrid by sticking to gas?

[Thrainer]

Originally posted by Ken_D:
Frankly I'm quite surprised that diesel hybrids haven't been seen or heard all that much. Higher efficiency, less complexity, and oodles of torque at low rpm's. ...

Can you please explain why they are less complex?

Maybe these are some reasons: Having an electric motor helps a lot with torque at low speeds, so you can have that without a diesel. Diesel powertrains are more expensive than petrol powertrains, hybrids are more expensive than petrol powertrains, so Diesel hybrids are more more expensive and therefore too expensive for the market.

[Ken_D]

Originally posted by Thrainer:
Can you please explain why they are less complex?

Maybe these are some reasons: Having an electric motor helps a lot with torque at low speeds, so you can have that without a diesel. Diesel powertrains are more expensive than petrol powertrains, hybrids are more expensive than petrol powertrains, so Diesel hybrids are more more expensive and therefore too expensive for the market.

Lack of an ignition/spark system, aside from the glow plugs, basically. Minor, but hey.

Yes, the powertrains are somewhat more expensive, but with the money that toyota has dumped into developing the gas engine for the Prius, I'll bet they could've ended up with a diesel engine that'd push the mileage into the stratosphere.

Why use the electric motor to make up for deficiencies with the gas one? Having more torque from the diesel plus the instant-on electric motor would be the best of both worlds, and if you happened to deviate from hyper-mileage driving technique, you wouldn't be 'punished' as much as with a conventional hybrid.

Look at the base price for a prius ($28k here). Would adding a few grand for a diesel option seriously deter any of its customer base? No way.

Besides, it has to start somewhere, if the same exposure, development and sales were put into diesel hybrids as gas hybrids, they'd be a more reasonable option now, you can't disagree there.

The same was said for hybrids/electric cars in general no more than a decade ago, too expensive and impractical to enter the marketplace, but a few years of technological advancement and development, and today it's well within reach of the average car buyer, if they so choose.

I don't see why diesel hybrids can't become a viable, attractive and practical option in the future.

[Adambomb]

Originally posted by Superfast Matt McCoy:
As far as the whole “electricity comes from coal” argument: when viewed from well to wheel, electric cars have half the greenhouse gas emissions of hybrids. And if you graph the percent of electricity coming from renewable, there is a clear trend. Also, the batteries are recyclable.


Yeah, but coal is icky and black and makes smelly soot http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/SARCASM]. I feel your pain. So many hippies complain about how "dirty" coal is, but when you ask them for quantitative differences in environmental output of coal power plants vs., well, anything else, all you hear about is how "icky" coal is. But of course the only thing worse than coal is nuclear, because it's all, like, radioactive and stuff (OK, last bit of sarcasm, I promise).

Are the batteries recyclable yet? I know that was the biggest environmental concern with electric was the batteries, haven't heard anything about them being recyclable. Aside from that, if there was a real breakthrough in battery technology it really would be a game-changer. And the beauty of that is that cell phone and laptop producers would be equally interested in that type of jump in battery technology, so there's a lot of brains focusing on that problem.

And as much as I also love the sound of a V8, for day-to-day use an electric car would be nice. Lower maintenance would be nice, and electricity is cheap. Never ran any analysis on what a $/J is for electricity compared to gas or diesel, that would be an interesting figure. Of course then you'd also have to take into account IC engine thermodynamic efficiency, electric motor efficiency, electric motor regeneration, etc. Would probably make a nice Thermo class report. Although electric motor efficiency is already drastically higher than IC engine efficiency can ever be, and not having a transmission frees up another 10-25% loss.

As far as performance, I remember seeing an electric S-10 drag truck on TV, had something like a "modified" 20 hp electric motor and a bunch of cordless drill batteries and ran something like an 11 sec. quarter mile, almost completely silent. And it was just built by a regular guy, too. Helluva sleeper.

[AnthoniX]

Frankly speaking,as a engine student,I don't like the idea of electric cars.The reasons are obvious--I don't want to study hard for years and end up good for nothing.But our teacher always told us that ICE cars wouldn't disappear in 30 years.I'm not sure whether this is true or not.But he is an chief consultant in automobile industry of China.And he told us so.Suppose he is right,then what's going on 30 years later when we have run out the petroleum?We have to turn to electric cars anyway as I can imagine.

Therefore,many big car manufactures like Nissan,BMW,Renault and Mercedes Benz are currently developing their own electric cars as a strategy for the future transportation.ICE cars have to be replaced.It's the fact.It's just a matter of time.

However,as for me,I will continue loving and studying ICE cars for the rest of my life.Maybe there'll be less and less ICE cars in the street in the future.But as long as it exists,it needs someone to handle it.