manual transimission

[lancerEVO]

does any team use manual transimission? our team don`t have enough money and experience.so we plan to use MT.who can give me some pictures or websites about MT? how to link the softaxles to engine?our engine is CBR600RR.

[lancerEVO]

does any team use manual transimission? our team don`t have enough money and experience.so we plan to use MT.who can give me some pictures or websites about MT? how to link the softaxles to engine?our engine is CBR600RR.

[coastertrav]

We use an automatic, sorry. Thought about running a T-56, but packaging was an issue.

[RANeff]

Usually we run Torqe-Flights or PowerGlide's. Gotta get that dang'ol power to the ground!

[Joe17]

T5 here

[Spearchucker]

We use a manual, but its 3 on the tree.

[PatClarke]

Be fair guys, not everyone speaks perfect English (not even me =])

I am pretty sure what LancerEVO is asking about manual gear shifting rather than a pneumatic or electronic shifter.

The answer to that Lancer is. Yes, many teams use a simple manual shifter. Some are simple levers with a knob on the end, others incorporate the clutch lever, micro switches to cut ignition and other sophistications. Many (most?) events have been won with a manual shifter!

One word of warning!
Make sure your shifter and mechanism does not foul the cockpit or footwell templates.

Good luck

Pat

[theTTshark]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by coastertrav:
We use an automatic, sorry. Thought about running a T-56, but packaging was an issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Psh we ran the BorgWarner out of a GT-R for awhile, but we kept blowing them up off the line.

lancerEVO: Plenty of teams use handshifters you just have to play connect the dots with all the linkages and figure out how to do your clutch.

[TMichaels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PatClarke:
Many (most?) events have been won with a manual shifter!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being an electronics guy I could not resist to check that and have to say that all events but Japan in 2010 were won by cars with electronic or pneumatic gearshifting.
Because of the long history of FSAE it can definitely be said that most of the events were won by manual gearshifting systems, but not in the recent past http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,

Tobias

[PatClarke]

Hi Tobias,

I wonder how many manual shifters we will see at FSE? ;-) ;-)

Pat

[The AFX Master]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lancerEVO:
does any team use manual transimission? our team don`t have enough money and experience.so we plan to use MT.who can give me some pictures or websites about MT? how to link the softaxles to engine?our engine is CBR600RR. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don´t have pics at hand since we are doing pneumatics (rather simple ones) since 07. But i can advice you as follows.

000- Make your linkage STIFF... the more, the better. Missing shifts can be totally blamed on compliant or sloppy shift linkage.

1- You can use push-pull wires, or rigid (ie: bars,clevises and joints).

1- Suppose your drivers are used to shift right hand (at least if they´re not from Japan or Commonwealth nations http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). But your shift peg is located on the left. That means that if you build solid linkages, you need to route them somehow across the chassis from left to right...

By doing that, you get awful lots of compliance!, since you possibly can devise a torsion bar, or a rocker, or something that flexes or bends easily as a connection between links on the left and the right of chassis.

Possible solutions:

-Tell the guys to learn to shift ala british, that is, left hand. Then you can join the shifting peg and lever with a direct, stiff link
- Stiffen the cross linkage somehow.
- use a proper push pull cable of enough strenght (i think this is the best one)
- Go simple pneumatics: Cylinder,solenoid valves, lines, a paintball gas canister, and relays with pushbuttons to activate these valves. This quick an dirty pneumatic works solid if you fine tune your drivers to use it.

Hope that helps!

[Boffin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">have to say that all events but Japan in 2010 were won by cars with electronic or pneumatic gearshifting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>And Australia 2010.
2nd place was also a mechanical shifter, but with cut spark.

[Luke Phersson]

More importantly, how many competitions have been lost due to a pneumatic/electronic shifter?

[TMichaels]

Depends, as always, how well your system is designed. It adds complexity, of course, but if no one would venture to try new things, we would still live in caves http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We never had reliability issues with our shifting system in three years and 7 competitions.

May be a team that really "lost" a competition, meaning they were within the Top3 before endurance, because of a not working shifter system can reply.

A provoking statement:
A working electric/pneumatic shifter system always increases your performance.

Regards,

Tobias

[Boffin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luke Phersson:
More importantly, how many competitions have been lost due to a pneumatic/electronic shifter? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I can think of at least two within our team (07 and 05 or 06) and RMIT's 09 comp was mostly ruined by a problem with their system.

Add in the problems in 08 we had with the system (Didn't work for 90% of the weekend, but was not the biggest problem on the car), was the reason we switched back to a mechanical shift.
2 years, no problems with the mechanical shifter and 100ms shift times, we would be reluctant to electronics/pneumatics.
Kind of irrelvant for us now though http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Big Bird]

A quick clarification - the RMIT gearshifting problems in 09 were from a hydraulic clutch line burning through on the exhaust. It was a "manual transmission".

The last time we tried an semi-auto (pneumatic) gearshift was in 2001. It was incredibly reliable. No matter what the driver wanted, you could rely on it being stuck in second gear.

Most teams I've seen with auto gearshifting problems never made it to top 3 in the first place. I've no doubt that if you have spare resources and an already reliable and competitive car then an electronic or pneumatic gearshift could be a good thing. But most teams aren't in that position. As far as points return per resource expenditure goes there are much greater priorities to tick off first.

[TMichaels]

There is big difference between an electric/pneumatic shifter system, which is completely controlled by the driver, and an automatic system which shifts instead of the driver. We should not mix this up.

However, both things can work rock solid as several teams have proven in the past.

I do not doubt that you at first have to do your homework regarding the basic parts of the car. But it is one of the best "nice-to-have"-things on the car and takes some workload off your driver.

Regards,

Tobias

[nowhere fast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:
A provoking statement:
A working electric/pneumatic shifter system always increases your performance.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...Except for any moment you're not changing gears.

[lancerEVO]

thanks THE AFX MASTER.I really agree with you.I know cornel univerty use manual.their design is same as what you said.they are pretty successful. we take part in this event for the second time.we didn`t finish the dynamic part last year.so we hope to improve the reliablity of our car.of course we have done some research on pneumatics.I wonder how to link the wire with transmission and the clutch.

[TMichaels]

Update:

A provoking statement:
A working electric/pneumatic shifter system always increases your performance overall http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Bemo]

Agree with Tobi - he's right.

[lancerEVO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:
Update:

A provoking statement:
A working electric/pneumatic shifter system always increases your performance overall http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know it is great.it can achieve gear change ignition cut and so on which can play an important part in racing.What troubles us a lot is money.we even can`t buy MoTec M400 or a Haltech.so we have to give up some thing such as electric/pneumatic shifter system and the dry sump.thank you all the same. we are from China.you know our situation.

[TMichaels]

Don't get me wrong, it is fine to start with a lever operated transmission, since you have to concentrate on the basic parts of the car (basically it is all about getting it done in time).
My statement was referred to the mechanical/electronic gear shifting discussion.

Regards,

Tobias

[Ivan Maglica]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lancerEVO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:
Update:

A provoking statement:
A working electric/pneumatic shifter system always increases your performance overall http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know it is great.it can achieve gear change ignition cut and so on which can play an important part in racing.What troubles us a lot is money.we even can`t buy MoTec M400 or a Haltech.so we have to give up some thing such as electric/pneumatic shifter system and the dry sump.thank you all the same. we are from China.you know our situation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Why do you need Motec M400?

VEMS v3+ Kliktronic is cheaper than Motec M400

[EHog]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:
Update:

A provoking statement:
A working electric/pneumatic shifter system always increases your performance overall http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know what is faster than electronic shifting?

Here it comes....

NOT SHIFTING. (in reference to a cvt)

Boom. That just happened.

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EHog:

Do you know what is faster than electronic shifting?

Here it comes....

NOT SHIFTING. (in reference to a cvt)

Boom. That just happened. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have a Baja team too. We also spend a lot of time with CVTs.

A CVT is still shifting. In fact, it shifts pretty much continuously. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A CVT will have to backshift (downshift) on corner exit. The time it takes to backshift is not insignificant, and even with a highly tuned CVT the backshift time is greater than the downshift time for a manual transmission.

[Bemo]

Not to mension the significant power losses CVTs usually have...

[Francis Gagné]

Here in Sherbrooke we have been using snowmobile CVT on our FSAE since 2000. We have kept it from here since it is working well for us.

Not trying to make another CVT vs. xxxx here, i just want to make an input from a CVT team and someone that actually drove it while we are on the subject.

I got to say that the backshift issue isn't really one. Our actual setup makes corner exit pretty smooth while kicking power out. From a newbie driver stand point, the learning curve is much easier. No shift managements really helps in concentrating on the not hitting cones, remembering the course, getting good lines and braking at the right time part of it. I have also found it to be pretty forgiving.

The downside to it is the rear frame packaging hell it creates, but we are getting good at it.

Our team uses a turbocharged phazer engine, the cvt roughly eliminate turbo-lag, and when power is needed RPM stays in a small range near peak power. We do are struggling with fuel efficiency, but it mostly comes from the old turbo-oil gulping fsae problem more than the CVT.

In 2000, when the first CVT was tried on, it was tuned up by professionals, and if recall correctly we ended up finishing 3th in accel with a car roughly the same power as we have now (80 hp) and almost 100 pounds heavier. This fine tuning haven't has been in our priority list lately.

Other types of continual transmission that could be used that eliminates the power loss and tuning haze of common V-belt CVT, like Nissan's toroidal cvt, but it would require huge amount of development and testing time to create a working prototype for FSAE since everything should have to be custom-made. There is also lot of developments being made for controlled V-belt CVT for high efficiency productions cars and recreative products.

I think both concepts have the potential to be very performing in motorsports. The end output depends on your knowledge of the system and how well it is integrated with your car and team goals.

For those that thinks that FSAE car should be F1s, well Williams tried a CVT in 1993, it was banned before it raced, there's some info and videos on the interweb.

Sorry for the long post, my 2 cents,