SAE-A membership - will you maintain it?

[Big Bird]

Hi all,

This thread is mainly aimed at Australian FSAE'ers, although I'd certainly welcome input from outside our shores too. Present competitors and alumni are welcome to contribute their thoughts.

The SAE is very conscious that many of us are signing up for SAE membership purely to attend the competition, and then not renewing membership once we graduate. I personally think this is a great loss, as a Society such as this one can offer networking, education and professional development opportunities for all of us - whether we specifically move into an auto engineering job or whether we just retain an interest in the field. Furthermore, the Society is a not-for-profit organization and relies on memberships to stay afloat - and to continue to provide the FSAE opportunity to future students.

So my questions for discussion:
Have you, or will you, maintain your SAE-A membership once you have moved on from competing in FSAE. If so, why? If not, why not?
What sort of events and services would convince you to retain your SAE-A membership?

The questions are being asked in good faith, so I hope responses will be constructive. I've had some interesting discussions privately about this matter, and now it is time to spread the net a little wider and get some opinions from around the country. If you would rather PM me your thoughts than post them publically then that is fine.

Thanks to all, and I look forward to some constructive discussion.

[Big Bird]

Hi all,

This thread is mainly aimed at Australian FSAE'ers, although I'd certainly welcome input from outside our shores too. Present competitors and alumni are welcome to contribute their thoughts.

The SAE is very conscious that many of us are signing up for SAE membership purely to attend the competition, and then not renewing membership once we graduate. I personally think this is a great loss, as a Society such as this one can offer networking, education and professional development opportunities for all of us - whether we specifically move into an auto engineering job or whether we just retain an interest in the field. Furthermore, the Society is a not-for-profit organization and relies on memberships to stay afloat - and to continue to provide the FSAE opportunity to future students.

So my questions for discussion:
Have you, or will you, maintain your SAE-A membership once you have moved on from competing in FSAE. If so, why? If not, why not?
What sort of events and services would convince you to retain your SAE-A membership?

The questions are being asked in good faith, so I hope responses will be constructive. I've had some interesting discussions privately about this matter, and now it is time to spread the net a little wider and get some opinions from around the country. If you would rather PM me your thoughts than post them publically then that is fine.

Thanks to all, and I look forward to some constructive discussion.

[Jay Lawrence]

Hi Geoff,

As for me, I was one of those people that only signed up so I could go to comp, and since graduating I have not renewed my membership. Unfortunately, I can't see myself becoming involved in the Australian automotive industry (not the main players anyway) because the products are just too boring and I've heard plenty of negativity about the work involved. As such, I can't really see the benefit of keeping up my membership for SAE.

The 'benefits' that I saw when I was a member (apart from going to comp) were the newsletter and offers of courses that I couldn't afford. It seems to be along the same lines as Engineers Australia: pay your membership and we take your money... and that's about it.

Events that could convince me to renew my membership: I really don't know. Anything to do with racing would be good, but then I guess SAE would be more like a car club than an engineering club. A day or 2 of competing at a local kart track (like some teams do after comp) or a hill climb would probably be more enjoyable and more cost effective (although the learning opportunities may be somewhat reduced).

I believe the comp entry fee is quite high, so apart from putting comp on and printing a magazine I'm not exactly sure what that and the membership fee is used for.

Anyway, hope I have made some sense and haven't offended anyone.

[Big Bird]

Thanks Jay, and no offence taken. We are engineers, we deal with facts, you gave your facts. How can we argue with that?

This is exactly the information I'm looking for, so I really appreciate your honesty.

Any similar stories, anyone? All contributions welcomed.

Cheers,

[Z]

Geoff,

Sorry, but the answer is an emphatic NO.

I had an SAE membership some years ago, mainly for the 10%(?) discount for books. Most of the dozen+ books I bought were of poor quality, both in content and production (eg. illegible print on one!). Only two of these books were worth the money, and they were of a historical nature (interestingly written by non-English speaking authors).

But it gets worse. It used to be that I could go to a library and quickly browse through SAE paper abstracts. If any looked good I would pull that year's papers from a shelf and quickly browse the articles, and then read any interesting ones at my leisure. Now, on the "interweb" http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, it takes ages just to browse the abstracts. Then, if any look good, I am expected to go through a longwinded process just so that I can fork out ~ $10 (+?) each to download them!

But wait, it gets even worse!. Many a time I have downloaded a paper (paying my hard-earned for the privilege of using my own electricity, paper and ink!), only to find that the most important figures or graphs haven't printed properly, or at all!!!

Sadly, the SAE seems to be going the same way as the rest of society. Namely, amass any old rubbish you can find, stack it as high as you can, and then charge however much you think the mug punters will pay for it.

Mumble, grumble... (dribbling old git, grrrrr... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif)

Z

[Chapo]

I will continue to renew mine but only so that I may come to the competition as a volunteer again. If it wasnt for my love of FSAE I wouldnt be a SAE-A member.

I am not a automotive engineer (rather the aeronautical type) and am a member of EA, because they seem to have good conferences and seminars (and since moving to my new location they dont even seem to be near me). I havent seen anything acessable from SAE in the same manner.

I just dont think that the average person see's much value from their memberships, more seminars in more locations would be good.

My 2c

[JRod]

As with the others; apologies in advance if I cause offense.

I graduated and didn't maintain my membership.

I can actually get free membership through my work, but I still haven't bothered, for the same reasons as the guys above posted- there's just nothing there for me (that I can see). Here's why:

-I'm busy. If I had extra evening free each week, I'd spend it training. If I had another day again, I'd go to my car club meetings, because my car's club registration is going to get canceled soon due to lack of attendance. I don't need another meeting to go to each week.

- Discount on books is nice, but I don't buy books that often.

- I've never, ever paid for a research paper because it's impossible to tell if it will be useful or not just from the abstract- and I hate wasting money.

- Lectures are interesting, but my brain is wired in such a way that if I don't apply knowledge straight away it vanishes quickly and without a trace, so it's rare that I learn anything from them.

- I never read the newsletters. The content just doesn't interest me- it isn't really relevant to me.


As far as what SAE can do to attract members...

- A discount on the stuff I actually do buy would be more useful: Tools.

- A newsletter that felt more design-informationy and less press-releasy would have me reading it.

- If the membership gave me 4-hours-once-a-week access to the kind of machinery I used at TAFE when I was in FSAE, I'd pay $500 a year. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Anyway, my lunch break is over. Hope what I wrote was constructive.

[Big Bird]

Thanks Jay, Z, JRod and Chapo,

The constructive comments are most appreciated, cheers for your honesty and no offence taken. Some good ideas coming forth - any more?

Cheers,

Geoff

[PatClarke]

Geoff,
Typical of what the SAE seems to be offering the membership these days is the email today from Rose, promoting this. http://www.icsat2012.com/

A registration fee of $950 menas that even if I was interested, I could not afford to attend.

My original attraction to SAE was access to the library and to papers, but the last books I bought from the SAE were Carroll's set and the Millikan book.

More recently, books I would have probably bought have been sourced more quickly and cheaply at Amazon or the Book Depository.

Automotive Engineering (capital E) in Australia is changing, has changed, and the SAE needs to adapt or it will go the way of so many other professional organisations. Social customs no longer mean it is important to announce your credentials and affilliations on ones business card. Mine certainly doesn't mention my degree, the SAE, the IAME or any other affilliation I may have.

I am a member of the SAE and will remain so as long as I am judging FSAE or Mentoring SAE students, to do otherwise would not be right, however, without FSAE I imagine I would have let my membership lapse years ago.

I often address meetings of professional organisations, and invariably, I am talking to people who are older than me (at 65, on the cusp of retirement) We (they) have lost the youth! The SAE understood this and invented a great tool to recruit young members (FSAE, of course) but it is easy to see why the students can not be retained when they graduate. The SAE doesn't offer what they want, need or are looking for!

With FSAE in Australia, the SAE don't capitalise, even at the event!

The SAE needs to radically reassess what it offers to members and if I may be so bold, stop pandering to old boffins, a decreasing clique, and realign itself with what the modern iteration of what an 'Automotive Engineer' needs.

My 2 cents worth.

Cheers

Pat

[Big Bird]

Hi Pat,

Every time I try to read one of your posts I get transfixed by that pesky little ant at the top of the page. Round, and round, and round, and...

Oh, sorry. Anyway, now where was I? Aah yes, my one word response - agreed.

I'm in the same boat squire, as are a number of FSAE-A alumni I'm communicating with. There are common themes throughout - loyalty to SAE-A through enthusiasm for FSAE, desire to make a difference and revitalize the SAE-A, questions as to what such a society can offer in the modern era. The good thing is, the SAE-A is welcoming input from newer and younger contributors and seems to be willing to adapt and accommodate necessary change.

One of the things the newer faces are trying to do is to start providing more relevant benefits for SAE-A members, and capture some of the enthusiasm generated by FSAE itself. Some of the ideas that have been discussed include:
* Engineering software training (free or subsidized depending on package). ADAMS? Nastran? CAD?
* Cheap or free activities, e.g. company/factory tours (V8 teams, OEMs, suppliers...)
* Job-seeking assistance such as careers fairs, networking days at automotive companies.
* Technical seminars (Ideas anyone? "How to manage an FSAE project"? "How to set up an engine management system"? "How to weld"? "How to restore an old car"?
* Social activities to bring experienced and novice engineers together (brewery/winery tours, group gatherings at MotoGP/F1/local V8 supercar rounds, go kart nights, organized trail bike rides, etc etc).

These are just a few random ideas, but the whole crux of it is we should build on the friendships built and enthusiasm generated by FSAE and try to establish a sort of "community of peers", who network together to help each other no matter what professional field we may finally end up in. So I see a "Society of Engineers Interested in Auto Stuff" rather than a "Society of Professional Engineers Specifically Employed in the Design & Manufacture of Passenger Cars"

Of course, this ain't going to change overnight, and maybe some of the above ideas are off-the-mark or impractical. But we can start by having the conversation, and see what we can design and implement from there. Design, build, test... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers all,

[JRod]

Geoff,

I like your ideas. Here's some "outsider" feedback on a couple of them:

Engineering software training:
-Is something that would be a big draw-card for people like me. I just recently got a job where it was a big plus to know CATIA, which I didn't at the time. If there was a cheap or free basics course offered, I would definitely have joined just to attend that. Most of us already know a CAD system and becoming familiar with a second is mostly just a matter of "knowing where the buttons are," so even a very, very basic run-through would be very valuable and could be done by practically anyone that had a rudimentary knowledge of the software (and so quite cheap).

Cheap or free activities:
-Rather than a walk-through-whole-factory tour, I would love to see an hour on just one process in order to get a more detailed knowledge of it. For example, rather than walking through an injection molding factory and seeing the racks of molded parts being carted form station to station, just spend an hour with an injection molder as it operates with an operator explaining why and how they dry the shot, why they chill the drying air return lines, then decreasing the cooling time to show sinks appearing in the part, then increasing the injection pressure to show what dieseling looks like and means, and then running a couple of short-shots to show how the material flows into the mold... However, I realise this is pretty ambitious due to it taking dedicated machine time and potentially being quite costly.


On the note of "Society of Engineers Interested in Auto Stuff," if I could get club registration for my car through SAE, I'd be a member in a heartbeat http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Jay Lawrence]

Definitely agree with JRod. Software training would be awesome. Most engineering jobs that we will be applying for specify knowledge in some form of CAD system, and uni simply refuses to do anything useful like that (we did about 5 lessons in ProE (useless) and similar in autocad (even more useless)).

[Moke]

Hi Geoff,

I don't think anyone from Auckland has kept their membership up. There is no real automotive industry in New Zealand other than men in sheds (who are doing cool stuff). I know the A in SAE-A stands for Australasia but there is nothing offered in New Zealand. It was a little annoying to keep seeing things offered in Australia.

Once shipping and exchange rate was worked in the book discounts disappeared and books could be purchased cheaper elsewhere. I'm with JRod, technical papers are often a waste of time.

It's hard for a sociality to be everything to everyone and it looks like SAE-A is tiring to improve. That said almost no one in New Zealand knows what SAE is, other than on the side of oil containers.

[nowhere fast]

Geoff,

I upgraded to graduate membership after graduating, but haven’t renewed this year. I may renew later, but only to support fsae.

I don’t work in the automotive industry (although I’d like to), but I’m about to start a new job with a manufacturer of earthmoving machinery which could fit under the automotive banner if SAE-A were to expand their scope. My two main motives for joining SAE-A would be:

1. To improve my chances of getting a job in the industry through networking or other means.
2. To expand my knowledge through presentations, access to a library, etc.

These two points are distinct; I want to learn about topics I’m interested in, not necessarily ones that will make me more employable. I feel that SAE is not delivering on either of these points and looked through the sae events of the past year to confirm.

There were no events held in Sydney, which immediately rules out my first motive. Most events were far too expensive for me to consider attending even if I lived in Melbourne.

As for my second point; a little over half of the events related to reducing vehicle emissions via electric powertrains, ICE developments, or material developments (while ignoring the elephant in the room: a vehicle that is 2m wide, 4m long, and weighing 1.5 tonne isn’t an efficient way to move a single occupant from a to b). I realise this is an important topic for the industry; but it doesn’t interest me much as an outsider. I also agree with the previous comments about technical papers.

What would convince me to renew my membership:
There have been a lot of good ideas in this thread. SAE would need to offer events in Sydney, preferably cheap or free. If sae is unable to provide an adequate amount of events outside of Melbourne, then perhaps there should be discounted memberships for non-Victorians.

As for the types of events; I would attend pretty much anything that might help me design and build a faster race bike or car out of my garage provided the price was reasonable. I realise there isn’t much of a professional automotive industry outside of Melbourne, but I wouldn’t mind less ‘professional’ events (Joe Bloggs talking about his garage built hill climber etc.) or social events to fill the void, in fact I’d probably prefer them to what’s on offer at the moment.

I like the sound of a ‘Society of engineers interested in auto stuff’.

Cheers

[Kevin Hayward]

Nathan,

The possibility of having earthmoving vehicle manufacturers associated somehow would probably interest potential members in the West. SAE at this stage is definitely a Victorian organisation.

There a vicious cycle involved with SAE events. Events are only held where there are significant numbers of members. At the same time it is hard to want to be a member when there are no events in your area.

What SAE have contributed to the future engineers of Australia through FSAE-A is incredible. However the value to non-Victorian members post competition is just not there. In Western Australia the obvious comparison is between IEAust and SAE. The former provides clear paths for training, career progression, and effective networking all in our backyard. As students on a team it is common to have student memberships with both IEAust and SAE-A. When graduating most will continue with IEAust for professional reasons, this is despite SAE providing one of the most valuable educational opportunities. I have never understood why IEAust is not involved with the FSAE-A competition, and why the SAE doesn't have close links with IEAust.

I'm glad SAE publishes and have learnt a lot from papers and books that may not otherwise exist. However the cost of both is too high. As Pat mentions you can get the books cheaper elsewhere regardless of whether you are a member. This seems like shameless profiteering off the membership. Likewise $10 a paper when we all know the varying quality is pretty bad. The DRM on the papers is just annoying and stupid. Papers locked to single computers, limited printing. Whoever thought that is a way to treat paying customers of overpriced papers is an idiot. I would be very interested to renewing membership if there was a way to have a yearly fee to view the paper collection online (any paper any time). Companies pay to have this access for its staff, but for individuals it is far too expensive. This could mirror subscription services in other industries (music, movies, computer programs).

All said and done all it would really take for me to renew a membership would be some decent coverage of the FSAE-A event and teams. I love reading articles about FSAE cars, teams, and technologies. The occasional ones in Race magazine are fantastic. I couldn't care less bout valves in automotive airconditioning systems, or the fact that the president of automotive widget A is now vice janitor for automotive company B. The auto engineer publication had plenty of material that didn't chew into my reading time.

Out of curiosity is there any idea about how many people have taken out student memberships since the start of FSAE-A that have not continued onto membership? If so how does that compare to the current membership numbers?

Kev

[brettd]

Nope, and I doubt most of the student members from WA would have either.

Couple of reasons (these are my views here):
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>FSAE and SAE are two different things, I still do have an interest in FSAE (and motorsport in general), however I have hardly any interest in Automotive engineering.

<LI>There is no notable automotive industry in WA, most graduates in WA these days go into resources-related jobs - therefore most WA based potential membership in SAE is related to personal interest rather than career progression. I don't know about other people, but I don't find automotive engineering that interesting personally.[/list]

A FSAE only/focused graduate membership may attract more interest. This may just be a quarterly magazine on FSAE and other motorsport related topics (i.e. a how to MAP an engine guide) which I would be interested in.

[Big Bird]

Thanks again for the constructive feedback everyone, we are getting a good idea of what you would like to see - and what you would like to see improved, too.

I've made the SAE-A aware of this thread, and it is being followed with great interest. I've been asked to precis the key points raised, and to present these to the Board of Directors so we can start actioning these ideas. One of the key points of "added value" raised above is already being attended to, and we should have announcements on this soon.

I need to have my summary completed by end of this week (Fri 24th Feb), so if you have any ideas or points you would like to put forward, please respond as soon as possible.

Thanks all,

[Big Bird]

Hi all,

Just wanting to revive this thread as I am personally reporting to the SAE-A Board on this topic in a week's time, and should get the go-ahead to start actioning your good ideas.

So what do you want from your SAE membership? How do you feel about the ideas I set out above? Any ideas of your own?

There are people here willing to listen and wanting to make change. Now is our opportunity...

[Fantomas]

How about spending time on more important stuff and finally get the results right?

Does SAE-A try to sit it out?

Fantomas