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jlangholzj
10-15-2012, 11:35 AM
Seems like this has been a popular problem (for me anyway) with FS/FSAE teams. Its taken me a good couple years to even get comfortable with it and even then there's a few things that I'm always researching or thinking about changing and of course things I just flat out don't know. So I figured that having a healthy discussion about the different types of maping,tuning setups and procedures might be a good way to get juices flowing.

Troubleshooting
---------------
might as well put this first, if you don't have a running engine, the rest is a bit irrelevant isn't it http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-check spark. Most ECU's have an option to test the coil outputs. ALSO BE SURE that if your ECU doesn't have built in coil drivers that you're using a CDI or an equivalent coil driver/ignitor box. This can cause major issues. Also be careful on the dwell setting. From what I could figure out, the dwell is how much "charge" to build up before firing the spark. Too much can cause the CDI to get overly hot and not enough can cause a weak spark.

-check injecotrs. Same as the spark. The thing to be sure about with the injectors is that the ECU may or may not have a setting for the injector impedance. Less resistance = more draw.

-sensor voltage. All the sensors getting the allocated 5V? does everything in the ECU make sense. Are all your inputs and outputs reasonable?

AND CHECK CHECK RE-CHECK THE WIRING!!! ...holy cow did i ride the struggle bus on that this last year.

if you're popping out the intake...check the firing order. Same for popping out the exhaust. This is probably switched around. If the firing order is right AND you're running sequential, what MoTec refers to as the "CRIP" or crank index position is likely off. This can be cause for it going boom at the wrong time. Check where your 0*TDC point is with a timing light. This is even a MUST once you get the engine running otherwise this could lead to some bad things happening (Thanks Owen for reminding me of that http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

also ABSOLUTELY have a physical ground cable going from the engine to you're battery/ground block. Simply grounding to the frame can cause some stray capacitance with the high-speed nature of the coil firing that can lead to wonky things happeneing

Engine Maping
--------------

To my knowledge the two most popular types of fuel maping are alpha-n and speed density.

what I've picked up is:

alpha-n uses the throttle position to roughly calculate the amount of IJPW (injector pulse width) needed for the given TP (throttle position). This can be beneficial for large duration cams or other engines that have a fluctuating MAP (manifold pressure) that could cause inconsistent or varying IJPW around idle.

speed-density uses the intakes MAP to determine (roughly by volumetric efficiency) the IJPW. This is at an advantage when using forced-induction and other situations where pressure can change.

Currently we run a speed-density setup. I've been thinking of playing around with changing over to alpha-n this winter. I had some problems with getting a consistent idle this year. It wasn't too terrible but it still will fluctuate around 11-1400 when its idling. This might be more of a tuning discussion so I'll leave that for later....

One of the downfalls that I can see to running a speed-density (that I've also experienced) is that if you have any intake leaks, it can lead to obnoxious high-idle. Hopefully there's no leaks to begin with....but I'm curious if alpha-n would be a better approach or not.


Initial tuning
--------------

typically once i get then engine started on the dyno and get everything happy, I'll follow the following order of events for getting a decent "power" maping on the ECU.

Also I prefer to tune off lambda. Or the raw value before AFR is calculated. From my understanding lambda is lambda is lambda no matter what the fuel type. This makes it nice and easy for tuning where no matter what the quality variance, type, etc a given lambda is the same. For example stoic AFR on gasoline is something like 14.7:! where e85 is 9.3:1 (something along those lines anyway). Whereas stoic lambda for both is ~1

before starting, i set a base ignition curve and injection curve. We run a YZF-R6 and the manual states that a general rule of thumb is 10* advance for every 1400??? rpm (I'd have to look to be sure on that number). That gives me a pretty flat curve across the RPM band until I hit full advance around 50*-60*

Some sensors to have for tuning are a wideband O2, cyl head temp, and EGT probes. Also, all these are for a speed-density setup...i expect it to be different for an alpha-n setup.


1)get it running on the dyno

2)set the idle. Get it so it will sit there and not die. Blip the throttle a couple times and make sure it comes back down.

3)set the no-load line. Aka, slowly rev it up and watch the mixture making sure it doesn't go lean. Around 1.2-1.3 lambda is okay yet but max power is typically around .9-1 lambda and i wouldn't want to see much over 1.1 under normal operating conditions.

4)once the no-load line is set I have a LOT better idea of a rough fuel map. Get that guy set a little better before going crazy.

5)with speed-density, applying more load to the engine will cause the load line to shift up on the map (for RPM=x axis and MAP=-y axis) so I'll typically make a pull in each progressive gear watching my lambda for each to get a better fuel map. This will typically take a little longer but it will give more resolution for the map.

this is a rough illustration (don't laugh too hard!) of what would basically happen in a speed-density setup.
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/jlangholzj/fuelmap_zpsc550a29b.png

6)just to check everything over I'll put it in the gear we're using the most(2nd or 3rd) and do a pull. IF everything looks good, I'll do a hold at a given RPM and then pull. This will also change the load position and give a little better idea on my maping. BE CAREFUL THOUGH. The reaction of the engine is likely due to acceleration/deceleration compensations.

7)Once the fuel map is looking good, I switch over and tune the ignition curve for peak torque output. This is where it's necisary to have a knock sensor. if not....motor could go boom...or make that nasty knock-a-knock-a-knock sound.

8) once I'm satisfied with the ignition curve, I come back to the fuel map and check everything over and change anything I noticed while changing the ignition map.

9)After all this, I'll monitor the EGT and cyl head temps quite a bit more closely. A cylinder that is more "lean" will typically run hotter. The wideband lambda reading that you're looking at while tuning is an average of all the pistons. By looking at the EGT's and cyl head temps, there canbe some "bank trims" applied to any pistons that may be running leaner (more lean?) than the others. This could be due to a number of things but having even burn across the head is generally a good practice.

After all this....you've got the baseline tune http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif isn't this fun! in reality...aside from getting the engine actually running, getting the initial tune will typically take me an afternoon to do.

If you're wanting to run ethanol (e85) then follow the above tuning procedure only with 91/100 and once you've got a good running engine that starts and is relatively set, trim the whole map up by ~23%. This will get you close for e85. Since all the compensations are acting on top of the IJPW, those should all be okay as well. Some will need some more play but you'll be close!

compensations
-------------
now that I've actually got a running engine, I typically let it cool off an look at all my compensations. Often times endurance can be a killer on getting that engine started again.

Comps I'll typically play with:

eng temp
air temp
battery
starting (cranking)
acceleration
deceleration
barometric pressure

We're running a Motec M84...and they go CRAZY with the amount of adjustments you can put into your compensations but all the above should be available through pretty much any ECU.

eng temp
--------
Typically the injector will fire on the back side of a closed valve for better atomization and also to eliminate any accidental booms going on in the intake. with e85 especially, this can be crucial. Having a colder engine means more fuel is needed to get that sucker at the right temps. To get this one set right it's going to take a little bit...but typically you'll be around operating temp most of the time so I think of it as the "base" for all your other compensations. This one i try and set somewhat early but once the other comps are set, you can come back to it.

air temp
--------
This one takes a little bit of drive time to get set right. Cool mornings or nights as well as hot afternoons to get something thats dialed in right. I'll typically leave this one alone until I'm sure other comps are the problem. Once it gets driving though I'll come back to it.

battery
--------
with additional load on the electrical system (fans, pumps, etc) the voltage drop will cause a change in the EIJPW(effective injector pulse width). This one is typically a percentage and you're able to find it online somewhere or (in my case) you're ECU manufacture will give a good ballpark. IF you don't have this set, you can run into issues once you're fans kick on if you've already got a pretty intensive load on the electrical system.

cranking
--------
By and far the most important comp for having an engine that will consistently and easily start. This typically consists of an initial charge "shot" given to prime it and then a following percentage of additional fuel while cranking. This is typically a eng temp vs crank time map that will change on how warm your engine is. The colder it is, the more fuel you need to add in. again, e85 can be a bit painful here.

One way i like to check this (if I'm having starting issues) is to cut power to the injectors and if it wants to start/sputter after killing the injector power....I know its too rich. The opposite can be said in that if it doesn't want to do anything at all, you may be too lean.

by an large this is one of the compensations that I put the most priority on. I still had a little more playing to do but i almost had it where the car would start heat-soaked or dead cold without touching anything other than the starter button. It's still got a lot of work yet this year...but its close!

Barometric pressure
-------------------
the higher you go up, the thinner the air gets and the less fuel you need to add. This isn't too much of a problem for our applications but non-the-less god to have on there. This is generally a 1-1 relation from what I've seen. Haven't had the chance to play around with this one a whole lot, so if someone could chime in I'd appreciate it.

acceleration/deceleration
-------------------------
this one probably takes me the longest. About the only way to get it set right is with driving, and lots of it. I'll touch on this quick and then combine it into the "drivability" category as well.

so when you accelerate, there's an in-rush of air. This means that you'll need to give it more fuel over a given time to keep it from leaning out. The opposite can be said for deceleration. When you're coming off the throttle there's an abundance of fuel and you'll need to cut some out in order to keep it from either flooding out or staying up in the RPM range.

How the MoTec works is that it will add/take out a given max percentage of fuel for different RPM bands. This is also typically more prevalent in the lower 60-70% of the RPM range and most prevalent in the lower 10-25%. This max percentage is added/subtracted when the throttle is "Stabbed" or if you let off fast. There's also another "Decay" function that changes the amount of that over so many cycles. Aka, you're not going to need to continually add the same amount of fuel, it will be generally less and less over each additional engine cycle. The opposite is also true for decel comps.

here's a plot of what it shouldn't look like:
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/jlangholzj/FSAELautox.png

you can see where the lambda (teal trace) is fluctuating with the TPS(blue) on acceleration (rpm is the maroon trace). Where the lambda is initially spiking, thats telling me that I'm straight up leaning out. The fact that it comes back to ~.9 within the gear change also tells me its the accel comp and not something else. Where its leaning/then rich/then lean (kind of a heart-beat looking pulse) I'm assuming my comp isn't quite enough initially (the initial spike) and that i should take away the compensation more gradually to keep it from going rich then lean again. See why this is such a funny deal? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ours still isn't quite right....but It's getting there. I'm guessing this will be a bulk of my tuning this year since I've got a decent base map thrown down.


driveability tuning
-------------------
So the engine maping done on the dyno is for "maximum power"...which is all well and good but i bet your drivers will hate you for it. so there's a few things that can be done to improve the "feel" of the engine when driving.

the acceleration and deceleration are big ones. If the decel maping isn't correct, it can cause the driver to feel like the car wants to push them around the corner after getting off the throttle. Also if the acceleration comp isn't right, it may tend to fell sluggish on the throttle.

if it feels sluggish and then all of a sudden "WOW we're WOT!" ...that may also be the acceleration maping OR it could be the timing curve. To put this into perspective, typically I have a bit of a "hole" around idle to keep it idling where i want. if the target RPM is 1k, I'll have 5-10* advance around 1k with a 15* "wall" behind it so that if the RPM drops it will force it to rev up. The same idea can be applied for driving. If the acceleration feel is a little sudden, retarding the timing in the lower ranges of the ign map can be used to help give a little more throttle feel. I've generally found that a large portion of that is with the accel/decel maping though.

here's that little wall i was talking about:
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/jlangholzj/ignmap_zps389b0649.png

This is also another area where I'd like to hear some more on.



holy novel of a post....Sorry to do that. I'd like to hear of some other teams tuning procedures and other troubleshooting tips about things that you've encountered in the past. I don't know nearly as much as i should and hopefully this should also alleviate some pains in the early process. Everything I've learned is either self taught or spending time with a tuner and sometimes the latter is hard to come by.

EDIT: added the little bit about tuning for e85 and also added the bit that Owen reminded me about...check yer timing!

Owen Thomas
10-15-2012, 01:17 PM
Great post! Very useful to those who only know the theory, and don't often have the opportunity to apply it on a dyno (such as myself).

Only two things I'd like to add:
1) For troubleshooting - Check the timing. Twice. Then maybe once more. You mentioned it ("base position"), but it is an extremely critical thing to have right, and many people just hook up a timing light and look for a few seconds. Worth your time to check and re check that value. In fact, I think I'll do that again tonight...
2)Stoichiometric fuel ratio (lambda = 1.0) for gasoline is an air fuel ratio (AFR) of 14.7, not 9.3. I have no idea what it is for E85.

Racer-X
10-15-2012, 01:22 PM
Great post. This is essentially my plan for this year. We already have a base line of sorts and the car starts fairly easily but it has some spots that we really need to fix, mostly fuel and spark timing and the accel/decel compensations.

jlangholzj
10-15-2012, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Owen Thomas:
Great post! Very useful to those who only know the theory, and don't often have the opportunity to apply it on a dyno (such as myself).

Only two things I'd like to add:
1) For troubleshooting - Check the timing. Twice. Then maybe once more. You mentioned it ("base position"), but it is an extremely critical thing to have right, and many people just hook up a timing light and look for a few seconds. Worth your time to check and re check that value. In fact, I think I'll do that again tonight...
2)Stoichiometric fuel ratio (lambda = 1.0) for gasoline is an air fuel ratio (AFR) of 14.7, not 9.3. I have no idea what it is for E85.

i had those flip-flopped HAHAA! knew the numbers sounded right.... doesn't make sense now that i think of it though due to the fact that you'll need about another 30% for ethanol.


which brings up another point:

if you're planning on running e85 and are rather new to the whole thing, get the motor so it starts very EASILY on 91/100. Go through the whole process and get the thing running well and then its just a trim to get to e85 (at first anyway)

if you take the whole map and trim it up by 23%, you'll have a good base point for running e85. Then the starting comps and temp comps will take a little bit of work as well, but it should come easier than trying to start right off of e85.

I'm going to try and put in some more figures and pictures once i get a change. "A pictures meaning can express ten thousand words" --Chinese proverb

Ben K
10-15-2012, 06:51 PM
This post is epic. Thank you.

Ben

Jay Lawrence
10-15-2012, 09:47 PM
^ +1

I'd just like to add a couple of things from my experience.

Troubleshooting

- check compression using a compression tester. If you have a dud ring of some other physical engine problem, it won't run properly (or at all).

- CRIP: keep in mind that it is possible to set CRIP 180° out. This can be difficult to find, so if you think everything is right but it's still not firing properly, adjust CRIP by 180°. We had this fairly often (changing between engines/cams etc.).

Mapping

- We have always used Alpha-N tuning, even while turbo'd. A trim table based on manifold pressure gave excellent results. This is also of benefit if you are N/A Alpha-N and make the transition to turbo. Manifold leaks also affect Alpha-N tuning (mainly in a 'weird lambda' sense, which can be a little hard to identify, although often the idle tune will go out the window also).

Initial tuning

For Alpha-N tuning, we typically run wideband O2 (after the collector, but sometimes on the individual runners to check cyl trims), manifold pressure/temperature (for trims), oil pressure/temperature, water temp, fuel pressure, and some others I can't think of. Of course, you could run EGT sensors as for the speed-density method.

With an engine dyno, you can typically set the load from the dyno computer, so you don't need to change gears to achieve different loads. This allows you to ramp at different rates and different throttle positions (effectively = load), or to hold at certain engine speeds for 'spot tuning' (careful with engine temps doing this).

Ignition tuning - keep in mind that you are aiming for the LEAST possible ignition advance for the most power. This ensures good economy without sacrificing power. Also, for detonation/knock sensing: a metal tube bolted to the block (just below the head) with a tube connected to it and plumbed into a set of earmuffs works a treat.

Compensations

Cranking - be sure to have very low ignition advance, or you risk putting too much downwards load on the piston (and the engine won't start).

Barometric pressure - I've found this isn't necessary when you use a manifold pressure compensation.


Once again, thanks for the post, it is indeed epic http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jlangholzj
10-15-2012, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Jay Lawrence:
^ +1

I'd just like to add a couple of things from my experience.

Troubleshooting

- check compression using a compression tester. If you have a dud ring of some other physical engine problem, it won't run properly (or at all).

- CRIP: keep in mind that it is possible to set CRIP 180° out. This can be difficult to find, so if you think everything is right but it's still not firing properly, adjust CRIP by 180°. We had this fairly often (changing between engines/cams etc.).



whenever I've had my CRIP be off on the R6 (180* or otherwise), it tends to poop and fart at me. My mustang on the other hand showed no signs of being 180 off. This is one of those things that I forgot to add in, good catch!




Mapping

- We have always used Alpha-N tuning, even while turbo'd. A trim table based on manifold pressure gave excellent results. This is also of benefit if you are N/A Alpha-N and make the transition to turbo. Manifold leaks also affect Alpha-N tuning (mainly in a 'weird lambda' sense, which can be a little hard to identify, although often the idle tune will go out the window also).

Initial tuning

For Alpha-N tuning, we typically run wideband O2 (after the collector, but sometimes on the individual runners to check cyl trims), manifold pressure/temperature (for trims), oil pressure/temperature, water temp, fuel pressure, and some others I can't think of. Of course, you could run EGT sensors as for the speed-density method.


Your maping was one that i was contemplating adding into the original list. I've heard of more and more people tuning alpha-n with a MAP comp in it. From my understanding the MAP comp will account for any pressure fluctuation and the TPS will hold steady base point. I'm really intrigued on this one. Out of curiosity in your MAP comp map (wow...read that again...confusing) is it pressure vs TPS or pressure vs RPM? I'm assuming its the former? Guess I'm having a hard time visualizing that one.

have you ever compared the EGT's to the lambdas? i thought about this as well but drilling a small hole and clamping on an EGT thermocouple seemed a little easier than welding bungs on...so i took the easy route...hahaa.

Fuel pressure was the only thing that i didn't consider a "main" sensor that should be monitored already. However, it should be AND its ALSO a great compensation you can add in! Something else i was thinking about adding in I was thinking about monitoring this year. Obviously with a pressure decrease, a given IJPW will flow less, thus needing more fuel to hit the target mixture.



With an engine dyno, you can typically set the load from the dyno computer, so you don't need to change gears to achieve different loads. This allows you to ramp at different rates and different throttle positions (effectively = load), or to hold at certain engine speeds for 'spot tuning' (careful with engine temps doing this).

Ignition tuning - keep in mind that you are aiming for the LEAST possible ignition advance for the most power. This ensures good economy without sacrificing power. Also, for detonation/knock sensing: a metal tube bolted to the block (just below the head) with a tube connected to it and plumbed into a set of earmuffs works a treat.


we have a water brake dyno that (at the time) didn't have the proper gears (driving on the engine and driven on the water brake shaft) on it to put the engine under full load in any given gear....so i shifted gears to get it there! hahahaa. We've got the equipment to make it a little more automated but I need to sit down and spend the time to re-wire it. I've seen some pretty kick ass rigs that will do what you're mentioning though jay. I have found though that tuning over a band will give a good result by averaging out the table values, however given the opportunity to do some spot tuning, i would definitely take advantage of that.

You also made me think of a rather interesting point. Make your radiator on the dyno HUUUGEEEE. Like, we're running an aluminum radiator out of a bobcat http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have to set the fans to kick on around 95*C on the dyno otherwise it has a hard time coming up to operating temp. I'd rather have that problem however than the other way around

On the timing; what I've always understood is that you'll be able to increase the timing BTDC to a certain point where the torque will peak at a given load point and then it will diminish again. I guess this is what i meant originally so are we talking the same talk just saying it different?? To me it sounds like you're saying the least amount of timing BTDC is the most power, which i don't quite see the reasoning there.



Compensations

Cranking - be sure to have very low ignition advance, or you risk putting too much downwards load on the piston (and the engine won't start).

Barometric pressure - I've found this isn't necessary when you use a manifold pressure compensation.


Once again, thanks for the post, it is indeed epic http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Retard on crank comp is another one of those that i forgot about. We're running 5*BTDC on the crank comp. As mentioned, too much ign advance will make it harder to start so taking some of that timing out can help out with starting.

Jay Lawrence
10-16-2012, 01:30 AM
If I remember rightly, the MAP map was 2D (just MAP and IJPW trim). I don't have our engine maps on me at the moment to confirm.

In the early turbo days we got a decent idea of EGTs by looking at the ones that were glowing vs. those that weren't... We haven't really had proper EGT sensors as far as I know. We typically built a second set of headers to include Lambda tapping points. If you were only going to build one then I imagine the EGT method would be more sensible, although I'd trust straight out Lambda readings more.

Ahh yes, we have some huge old radiator on ours, and for turbo tuning we had an aftermarket WRX intercooler http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In regards to the timing, I was alluding to the fact that you can hit a deadzone where you've reached MBT and adding another few degrees doesn't have any effect. We would always tune to the lowest advance in this range, or coming back a little bit from it. It ends up a bit safer in terms of detonation (ideal dyno conditions vs. track conditions, for example), and better for economy. But yes, we're on the same page there.

jlangholzj
10-19-2012, 07:53 AM
Hopefully within another week or so we'll have the intake on the chassis dyno with a different TB. We've got an AT power on it now and we're going to switch over to a jenvy and see where our bands change. I'll post up some Torque plots once we do the runs.


Another thing that I didn't add into the tuning was close loop lambda control. Typically there's a short trim and a long trim value that are applied to help modify the IJPW based on mixture. There are several options as to when the close loop control is valid but I've generally run it all the time. Its important to only do this once you've had the engine fine tuned on the dyno and had some drive time to adjust out the driving tweaks. The amount of trim available is ~0.3 lambda so if the tune is way off, you'll not be achieving anything with CL. It can however be a great way to help prevent leaning out at high RPMS or overloading while at idle.

Some parameters that MoTec had that seem to work well for sensor response are 1.5s at low duty and 0.4s high duty. Also the trim step per period shouldn't be larger than 80%. If you do make it larger than that, it can change too fast and cause some overshooting and fluctuation in the lambda that may cause it to get unhappy.

Mbirt
10-19-2012, 10:56 AM
Excellent post, John. I've got a few things to add.

The stoichiometric AFR for the E10 gasohol at competition is closer to 14.1:1. Some ECU's might place greater priority on this parameter than others. For E85, it's 9.76:1, but who knows if we'll get E75, E82, or what. It'll be numerically higher than 9.76.

I liked your idea about cutting injector power while calibrating the cranking PW. To further fine-tune it from there, you'll know it's too much fuel if significant throttle opening helps it start. If it doesn't start regardless of throttle opening, it's too little fuel.

Teams not running 600/4's will want to exercise extra care when formulating an ignition base map. Check out the chapters on ignition and EFI in A. Graham Bell's "Four Stroke Performance Tuning". Your engine isn't running as restricted as a 600/4 and will not be as tolerant of over-advanced spark timing and lean running at high load. Our single on E85 likes less advance than the stock bike's module gave at "all in".

Question for you guys: Do you have any rules of thumb for timing the injection event? Our ECU has a nice, big load vs RPM map for the start of injection angle, but it can't be calibrated in real time. Changes must be made offline, a new ECU program must be compiled and flashed--tedious. I can, however change the phase angle of the entire map and it made a significant difference on the engine dyno by shifting trouble spots at various loads to new speeds. I would really prefer a calibratible end of injection angle map.

jlangholzj
10-19-2012, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Mbirt:
Excellent post, John. I've got a few things to add.

The stoichiometric AFR for the E10 gasohol at competition is closer to 14.1:1. Some ECU's might place greater priority on this parameter than others. For E85, it's 9.76:1, but who knows if we'll get E75, E82, or what. It'll be numerically higher than 9.76.


I was ball-parking the numbers earlier...should probably go back and change that. I always try and shoot for 1 lambda and it seems like the close loop control will account for any variance in the quality and octane. This last year at comp I wasn't seeing a change in our logged lambda-load maps from comp vs testing here at home.




I liked your idea about cutting injector power while calibrating the cranking PW. To further fine-tune it from there, you'll know it's too much fuel if significant throttle opening helps it start. If it doesn't start regardless of throttle opening, it's too little fuel.


I got the idea from my experience with flying. Having a mixture knob on the dash is always great! closest i could get without making it super technical was the switch http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It also works great if you're having trouble starting and suspect it might be flooded out. Also we usually kill the engine with it to keep fuel from pooling up on the back side of the valve. Kind of nice to have it, i use it more often than not.



Teams not running 600/4's will want to exercise extra care when formulating an ignition base map. Check out the chapters on ignition and EFI in A. Graham Bell's "Four Stroke Performance Tuning". Your engine isn't running as restricted as a 600/4 and will not be as tolerant of over-advanced spark timing and lean running at high load. Our single on E85 likes less advance than the stock bike's module gave at "all in".

Question for you guys: Do you have any rules of thumb for timing the injection event? Our ECU has a nice, big load vs RPM map for the start of injection angle, but it can't be calibrated in real time. Changes must be made offline, a new ECU program must be compiled and flashed--tedious. I can, however change the phase angle of the entire map and it made a significant difference on the engine dyno by shifting trouble spots at various loads to new speeds. I would really prefer a calibratible end of injection angle map.

As previously mentioned we're running an M84 (little brother to the M400) and I've got the option to adjust INJ timing real time but just eliminated the table axis and set it at 300*BTDC. I haven't had the chance yet to fully exploit that ECU and tune it in as well as it should be. I've got to design our cooling, electrical and get a running engine in one year so it gets a little crammed http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I did have another Sparky join up though and a few other Mechy's so I'm hoping I'll have a little more dyno time this year.

Tilman
10-20-2012, 02:28 AM
Heyho,

great post! Please add a section with abbreviations used, this will make it much easier to read for any non-native speaker.

Some things the manual of our ECU suggests:
1) Measure injector dead time. Our ECU does this by switching between sequential (4-stroke) and non-sequential (2-stroke) injection each 5 seconds with battery compensations switched off. Then one varies the injector dead time until there is no lambda change anymore between 4- and 2-stroke-injection.

Is it possible that what you refer to as battery compensation is the same as injector dead time? However, you should tune this as early as possible, because if you don't, your injection maps might depend on a wrong injector dead time. This will not hurt you unless you have to change injectors ...

2) On injection timing: The DTA S Series manual states "Some engine builders think this is a very important number, others think it is of no importance". I think you might go with the latter until you have tuned everything else ...

3) Air inlet temperature compensation: Our ECU's manual states that "There is only one set of correct fuel compensation figures for this [air inlet temperature] shown below." and I back this because the ideal gas law does quite a good approximation of air density. This might be true for absolute barometric air pressure compensation, too.

I think one should set all compensations at least to good approximations / well educated guesses before trying to tune the engine ... However, I never tuned an engine myself, so this is just from my understanding of these topics.

B Lewis @ PE Engine Management
10-20-2012, 08:38 AM
I just thought that I would add some things to the earlier comments based on our experience.....




1) Measure injector dead time. Our ECU does this by switching between sequential (4-stroke) and non-sequential (2-stroke) injection each 5 seconds with battery compensations switched off. Then one varies the injector dead time until there is no lambda change anymore between 4- and 2-stroke-injection.

Is it possible that what you refer to as battery compensation is the same as injector dead time? However, you should tune this as early as possible, because if you don't, your injection maps might depend on a wrong injector dead time. This will not hurt you unless you have to change injectors ...


Injector dead time is the same as battery compensation. The method mentioned above will work but only for 1 battery voltage unless you repeat the test multiple times at different voltages. The best way to get battery comp numbers is to test the injector on the bench at multiple values with the same ECU that you will be running on the engine. The battery voltage compensation is a function of where the flyback voltage is clipped in the injector driver. I could give a whole dissertation on why the battery compensation is important but basically it linearizes the response of the injector to open times which makes manual and adaptive tuning in the ECU MUCH easier.

FSAE teams can get free injector characterization from us when they purchase a PE3 system.





2) On injection timing: The DTA S Series manual states "Some engine builders think this is a very important number, others think it is of no importance". I think you might go with the latter until you have tuned everything else ...


I agree this should be left as the last thing to study when tuning the engine. Injector timing is very important for 2-strokes and can be important for idle quality and for part throttle drivability and emissions. We have never seen much gains at WOT on small displacement engines by changing the injector timing.




3) Air inlet temperature compensation: Our ECU's manual states that "There is only one set of correct fuel compensation figures for this [air inlet temperature] shown below." and I back this because the ideal gas law does quite a good approximation of air density. This might be true for absolute barometric air pressure compensation, too.


On the surface, I agree with the statement above, however, depending on the engine this is not always true. With some air temperature installations, the sensor itself can become heat soaked. In this case the sensor is not reading actual air temperature but rather some combination of air temperature and sensor body temperature. This is very common in some production engines and can lead to a lot of head scratching when tuning if you are not aware of this. The 5.0L Ford engine is a great example of this problem.


As always, the PE phone lines and inbox are always open to FSAE teams. Give us a shout if you have any questions.

jlangholzj
11-04-2012, 11:06 PM
for those of you who weren't able to or didn't know about the ford PT webinar that was put on this last week, there was some good engine basics that they covered.

Couple of things that I picked up that i thought was interesting (or just made me think)

1) When you're spending lots of time on your fuel/ign map, look at a histogram of the TP (or map) and RPM ranges that you're in the most. This is where you should be focusing the most time in the map on. Its a no-brainer when you say it outloud, just never really thought of it before.

2) Even with signal smoothing and filtering a MAP based fuel map can be troublesome. Its not that it doesn't work, but they were reporting 2-3 inches of water fluctuation in the unfiltered MAP signal. Something that me an last years TL have been talking about is switching over the alpha-n. Just seems to make more sense with the restrictor and everything.

I'll have the slides hopefully within a week and I'll try and find a spot to post them up.

Cardriverx
11-05-2012, 01:24 PM
Just to chime on injection timing:

It really doesn't matter for us. The thing is, at high duty cycles changing the timing really doesn't affect much since the injector is already spraying for 75-90 percent of the cycle.

Now, if you were to say run 600cc injectors on a 600rr, it would matter a lot since your max duty cycle would be around 30 percent.

Also, I am a supporter of alpha-n for our cars. With the restrictor the MAP signal is hard to get reliably without variance. Of course if you run a turbo you at least need MAP comp. but in my experience alpha-n is the easiest route to go.

Mbirt
11-05-2012, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Cardriverx:
Just to chime on injection timing:

It really doesn't matter for us. The thing is, at high duty cycles changing the timing really doesn't affect much since the injector is already spraying for 75-90 percent of the cycle.

Now, if you were to say run 600cc injectors on a 600rr, it would matter a lot since your max duty cycle would be around 30 percent.

Also, I am a supporter of alpha-n for our cars. With the restrictor the MAP signal is hard to get reliably without variance. Of course if you run a turbo you at least need MAP comp. but in my experience alpha-n is the easiest route to go. The issue that I suspected to be attributable to injection timing was on a single with its only injector in the "high-mount" location spraying into the runner's bellmouth. The uncooperative load point was less than 80 kPa MAP at the speed of greatest intake ramming. Operation at this point has been much improved by moving the injector closer to the cylinder head--along with a big-time reduction in POT fuel consumption.

Also, I'll second the posts above in favor of alpha-n mapping. I'm a believer after trying it on a whim. After only a few hours on the chassis dyno modifying the original SD map for AN operation, it did great things for our idle and POT operation.

jlangholzj
11-05-2012, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Cardriverx:
Just to chime on injection timing:

It really doesn't matter for us. The thing is, at high duty cycles changing the timing really doesn't affect much since the injector is already spraying for 75-90 percent of the cycle.

Now, if you were to say run 600cc injectors on a 600rr, it would matter a lot since your max duty cycle would be around 30 percent.

Also, I am a supporter of alpha-n for our cars. With the restrictor the MAP signal is hard to get reliably without variance. Of course if you run a turbo you at least need MAP comp. but in my experience alpha-n is the easiest route to go.

you better not be that high on your duty cycle. By the time you get up to 75-80% you start to lose resolution in your fuel map. Typically 85% is "maximum" duty cycle. That's something else that I didn't put in on the initial post. When your duty cycle start getting that high, its no different than just leaving the injector wide open. I try to be at the 60% mark maximum. Otherwise its hard to be sure exactly what the injectors are doing.

Teranfirbt
11-05-2012, 04:38 PM
I'm not entirely sure what injectors you're using, but we've got maps on ours showing complete linearity up to 90% duty cycle.....

jlangholzj
11-05-2012, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Teranfirbt:
I'm not entirely sure what injectors you're using, but we've got maps on ours showing complete linearity up to 90% duty cycle.....

I've never had the opportunity to test ours, they're just the stock primary injectors from the R6. I guess I've just always been told to try and keep it under 80% as a rule of thumb. Really with our restrictors you'd have to be running some crazy low pressure to see in that range anyway.

Cardriverx
11-05-2012, 06:15 PM
The only reason to restrict using more than 90% duty cycle is to prevent the coils in the injectors from overheating. They will flow linearly beyond 90% in most cases. Running around 65-85% is where you should be at WOT.

For example check out the ID725, it will stay linear till 90% even at 15000rpm

http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID725.html

I would also read some of these articles, they are very well done.

http://www.injectordynamics.com/tech.html



Originally posted by jlangholzj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cardriverx:
Just to chime on injection timing:

It really doesn't matter for us. The thing is, at high duty cycles changing the timing really doesn't affect much since the injector is already spraying for 75-90 percent of the cycle.

Now, if you were to say run 600cc injectors on a 600rr, it would matter a lot since your max duty cycle would be around 30 percent.

Also, I am a supporter of alpha-n for our cars. With the restrictor the MAP signal is hard to get reliably without variance. Of course if you run a turbo you at least need MAP comp. but in my experience alpha-n is the easiest route to go.

you better not be that high on your duty cycle. By the time you get up to 75-80% you start to lose resolution in your fuel map. Typically 85% is "maximum" duty cycle. That's something else that I didn't put in on the initial post. When your duty cycle start getting that high, its no different than just leaving the injector wide open. I try to be at the 60% mark maximum. Otherwise its hard to be sure exactly what the injectors are doing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

murpia
11-06-2012, 06:47 AM
Interesting to read the debate on alpha-n vs. speed density.

I'm sure that alpha-n is easier to tune for one engine hardware set, on one particular day.

But, change anything that alters your air flow, and you have to re-tune. Or, if anything hardware-wise changes over time, your tune goes off.

Speed density should be more 'robust' (in control terms) and more applicable to projects where multiple hardware sets are in use.

Juat my opinion...

Regards, Ian

Cardriverx
11-06-2012, 06:06 PM
You could always use alpha-n with a MAP compensation..


Originally posted by murpia:
Interesting to read the debate on alpha-n vs. speed density.

I'm sure that alpha-n is easier to tune for one engine hardware set, on one particular day.

But, change anything that alters your air flow, and you have to re-tune. Or, if anything hardware-wise changes over time, your tune goes off.

Speed density should be more 'robust' (in control terms) and more applicable to projects where multiple hardware sets are in use.

Juat my opinion...

Regards, Ian

atm92484
11-06-2012, 06:34 PM
-check injecotrs. Same as the spark. The thing to be sure about with the injectors is that the ECU may or may not have a setting for the injector impedance. More resistance = more draw.



Isn't this backwards?

V=IR --> I=V/R

As resistance increases the current through the transistor is going to decrease. That is why you may see ballast resistors on low resistance (low impedance) injectors.

Rex Chan
11-08-2012, 06:23 AM
Epic thread here.

I'll add my thoughts:

1. If you know how the wiring loom should be wired, and check it all once, it *will* work, first time. In 2010, 2011, and 2012, I checked our looms before first car engine crank, and they all caught/started up no problems. To be fair, we don't change a lot year to year. All I'm saying is: know what it *should* be, and check it once; no need for multiple checks. You gotta be 100% sure what you want though.

2. Our dyno is a steady state only, so no pulls. We have speed control via PID, so it's set the RPM, and open the throttle to get to your mapping point

3. Bosch LSU measure a current (or some black magic). Whether it's in LA or AFR or something else doesn't matter. We use lambda, cos that's what the textbooks here use, and as mentioned, it's easy to know what it means. LA 1.00 is stoich, LA < 1 is rich, etc

4. We use MAP (not TPS). It's how I inherited it, but I like it cos you can't really mess it up. If you fiddle with either your TPS sensor, or the throttle body/butterfly, then doesn't your tuning do strange things? We use TPS for accel enrich though (way better than MAP we had to use on the M48)

5. In 2011, we tried ET fuel compensation on the dyno, and it didn't work (at idle). We did end up using oil temp idle comp on the car at idle. This year, we using idle RPM targeting (ecu only - no throttle body stuff). Aiden Turner (Turns on here) is the guy to ask.

6. We do play with inj timing on the dyno (only at WOT), and found it does make a diff. It's very fast to do a sweep at an RPM, so why not?

7. We've never had a problem with cranking maps (and we run e85...) JUst extend the lowest tuned RPM back down to 0 RPM, and it works. I did this in 2010, and forgot that part of the map is used for cranking - had no effect on cranking...

8. Blipping the throtte from idle - make sure the overrun cut is set right, or turned off.

9. We use a water to water heat exchanger in the dyno - it cools too well, even though it's a tiny thing. We have cooling tower water in our dyno cell @ 20C and high pressure/flow. We actually run a bit cold on the dyno, even at max power for 10 minutes+. The oil temps on the other hand... (and we've got a dedicated EWP80 just for the oil cooler)

10. We run a CBR600RR with stock lower injectors only on E85, and have had no injector duty cycle problems. Or maybe we're not looking carefully enough...

jlangholzj
11-08-2012, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by atm92484:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
-check injecotrs. Same as the spark. The thing to be sure about with the injectors is that the ECU may or may not have a setting for the injector impedance. More resistance = more draw.



Isn't this backwards?

V=IR --> I=V/R

As resistance increases the current through the transistor is going to decrease. That is why you may see ballast resistors on low resistance (low impedance) injectors. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Touche sir....must of been a friday night i wrote this or something http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif changing it now