Basic design goals

[Paul Wright]

We are a new team building a car for the 06 competition. We have very limited support. I was wondering if anyone would share their basic design goals to start us off in the right direction. I'm talking about things like CG, weight,camber gain, turning radius, etc

[Paul Wright]

We are a new team building a car for the 06 competition. We have very limited support. I was wondering if anyone would share their basic design goals to start us off in the right direction. I'm talking about things like CG, weight,camber gain, turning radius, etc

[Agent4573]

Our main design goals are to have a car that doesn't brake at competition and that weighs less than 500 pounds with a full tank of gas and all other liquids in it.
I'm not sure about the rest of them cuz im not the suspension guy, sorry.

[Didier Beaudoin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Agent4573:
Our main design goals are to have a car that doesn't brake at competition and that weighs less than 500 pounds with a full tank of gas and all other liquids in it.
I'm not sure about the rest of them cuz im not the suspension guy, sorry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the first time I see a team admitting they don't want to pass the brake test. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm joking, I know it was a typo...

[Eddie Martin]

Well for a new team you really need to plan out all the stages to the project and stick to your deadlines.
I assume you are from an American team so i would aim to have your car running by late November 2005. You can't have enough testing as a first year team. You need to learn about the car on track and train drivers. Get the car running however you can. In our first year we ran the car unrestricted with stock carbs, cbr f4, just so we could start learning as early as possible.
A realistic weight for a first year team, with a 4 cyl. sports bike motor, is 230kg with no fuel. Make sure you have a weight budget for every part on the car. You should be able to get your cg at about 265mm above the ground with driver easily.
In terms of suspension stuff you want it to be pretty adjustable. A lot of these parameters have been talked about in other threads.
The project management is as hard, if not harder than the engineering involved so make sure you look after that side of the project.

Keep it simple and get it done early.

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

Here's a couple of useful links...

http://motorsports.sae.org/eventsedu/fsaeresources/organizing/
http://web.umr.edu/~formula/library/sae_paper/paper.html

Marc Jaxa-Rozen
École Polytechnique de Montréal

[Jonathan D]

If you can get ahold of the FSAE programs from previous years, they are a good resource for coming up with some basic design parameters (wheel base, target weight, track width, etc.)

Additionally, using the results from previous years, you should be able to set some performance targets. From these targets, you can develop some spreadsheets to see where your car specifications need to be, in order to reach these goals.

A final resource would be the rules themselves. You could probably come up with a turning radius from reading the rules alone.

Before solidfying designs, set some goals/targets, and some basic parameters (weight, wheel base, track width, etc). From this, you can figure out a design sequence (what do I need first, in order to move on? what parts of the design are iterative?), and have targets to work towards.

[Agent4573]

Eddie: I like how you assume that the team is a US team, but then put all the units in the metric system. I just found that a little funny.

[jack]

i'm sure everyone is going to have something to say on this thread. so here goes... i would try to focus on fundraising/buying parts rather than trying to make everything. i know this doesn't sound as fun, and i'll probably get nailed for saying that here. i was on a team that wasn't new, but fairly inexperienced, and trying to make stuff because we couldn't afford to buy it may of cost us the event. little composite parts can end up taking months to make, that you thought were going to take a few days, and stuff like that. before you know it, you need to go to comp, and your car isn't even tested. a good rule is to initially say your going to buy a part, and if that part is on the car and tested, and you still have a month or so till comp, then look into making/improving it. and for stuff like turbos/fancy shifting/traction control, if someone is really stoked to do something like that assume that it is a "research project" and won't go onto a car untill its done, if thats the '07 car, '09 car, wahtever. aslo if you buy alot of stuff (parts and services), you get good contacts and dont back yourself into a corner by not having any sponsors or support.

hope this helps, and if the project doesn't seem like its going so well, and you don't get any testing done or something, GO TO COMP anyway, you will learn so much there, will be glad you went, and more prepared for the next year http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[fade]

beat cornell http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Cement Legs]

Best advice.... post questions here.... This forum is by far the best resourse I have found because of the talented and experienced people who are willing to share their wealth of knowledge.

Oh and use the 'find' feature first, some question have been posted and answered several times. Good luck and we hope to crush you at the competition as we plan on being a first year team at the '06 competition as well. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Eddie Martin]

Agent, The imperial system is so 1800's http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Frank]

i thought that inch series stuff only applied to rod ends and 4130 tube...

someone just told me its a whole SYSTEM of measuring

you learn a new thing every day

[adrial]

If you do a search, there was a recent thread that mentioned max steering angle other teams designed for. IIRC ~30 degrees isn't a bad goal. I don't think you'll ever need that much steer angle on course at the competition, but its nice for pushing the car around. The radius of the tightest turn at competition is mentioned in the rules.

As far as camber gain and everything related to that, you need to get yourself some sort of suspension modeling package and start doing iterations. See what works for the corner you think the car will find itself in most often.

If you search this forum you'll find a lot of great information.

[TomF]

Just some advice on where to start. On these cars everything comes down to your car's handling. So work on your suspension from the start and make it dominant over all the other systems. Basically use the KISS approach (Keep It Simple Stupid!). Also make sure you have some money left for research, and well get a few guys working on sponsoring. Getting your own workshop might also help a lot....

last but not least, Good luck

[Paul Wright]

Thank you for your help. We have an engine (2002 F4i Honda). I just bought Mitchells "By the numbers" suspension software.Each day I do this, I am reminded how little I know. Our team has never done this, our school has never done this, we feel on our own in every way. Quick question, I would like to try building a prototype to get the project going based on our collective experience (we only have 4 people on the team). After the prototype is built, I'd like to "reverse engineer" the prototype. What do you think of this process? Without experience, and without faculty support we dont think we can build a Solidworks model first. By the way we are an American team.

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

The first time I looked at SolidWorks I was really intimidated...it looks more daunting, than say, proe (pre-wildfire), because it has so many buttons and choices and stuff. but then you do some tutorials, and you realize every complex thing you could ever possibly need has its own button! its like moving from paint to photoshop, but once you get it, you won't go back.

make a solidworks model first.

[Michael Jones]

If you can send some of your people to the 2005 competition, go. If you go around and ask the right questions, you'll learn tons - and you'll have 140 or so final products to look at.

Don't set out to beat Cornell or any of the other perennial contenders just yet - although if you go to competition in 2005, make a list of those contenders from past results and check them out especially. Your goal as a first year team is to build a car that successfully completes all events. Best case, you're best rookie team. Worst case, you'll finish 136th but wiser from the experience.

Get more than four people. People will recommend all sorts of team sizes to you, but 4 is way too small to get things done, even in two years.

Not sure what you're proposing in terms of a prototype, but I agree it's a good idea - whether virtual or not. Cornell's car begins as a wood mockup. Not only does this help with frame design and systems integration, it's fun, and the end result can be inspiring.

[UNB f4i tats]

make a timeline, set out dates to have things done by. Always add twice or three times the amount of time you think it is going to take to do something (for the unthought of events that come up at the last moment or extra compleation time)then keep to your plan. set out the time line so you can clearly see the things that need to be done for other things to happen. have fun and ask lots of questions.

[GTmule]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Don't set out to beat Cornell or any of the other perennial contenders just yet - although if you go to competition in 2005, make a list of those contenders from past results and check them out especially. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're trying to start a new baseball team, go to some games, get some players together, find a field. Do NOT try to beat the New York Yankess at first though.

Sincerly,
The New York Yankees


http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[rjwoods77]

You might want to think about not doing what everyone else is doing. There have been a some single cylinder engine cars out there doing well so that might be something to consider. If you did something like that then alot of the factors of the car ge easier. Same concepts but just downsized. Its easier to fuel inject one cylinder than 4. It is easier to cool a single cylinder engine, they take up way less room, and are way easier to package. Plus you'll look cool doing it beacuse everyone has the same type of car and you wont. For sure look at everyones car and see what they did, but dont think that it is the only way to do it. Most people are too scared to make the jump. Being a new team you are in the right position because no one is pressuring you to do anything but build a car.

[syoung]

If I was starting a new team now, I'd look enthusiastically at single-cylinder engines (while considering things like the availability of spare parts and the extent of the knowledge-base out there). Remember, whatever else carries over to your next 2 or 3 cars, the engine and all the associated work you do on packaging, lubrication, mapping and all the other things will be time- and cost-expensive things you will want to re-use.

I'd re-iterate the main points that have been stated already:
- Go to the competition and TALK to people!
- Have a car ready to test EARLY. However many weeks you think you'll be ready in, double it. This will give you a date far earlier than you can possibly have a finished car.
- Don't try and innovate with your brand new car, although don't rule out new solutions.
- Be able to back up EVERY decision you make (especially design decisions) with hard, preferably numerical, facts.

[Moke]

Having just done the 1st year thing, I can tell you what worked for us.

We got a car built early; we tested and refined, tested and refined. A part could weigh 2kg to start with but we got the car running, then we made a new part that weighed 1kg. Our shake down version looked real rough, but the final version looked great and it worked. But by testing we were able to evaluate and evolve designs. It's what we called the "Moke System"

As I said this approach worked for us and we did finish every event in the '04 FSAE-A and come overall 6th and turn heads doing it.

Oh and don't forget the static events