hi friends.

[Scrutinizer]

high friends.in the case of fuel tank design we have encountered a confusing problem.if sight tube reads the amount of fuel consumed in endurance event so there is just the fuel inside the filler pipe between lower and higher lines marked on sight tube on debate.so even with so a wide fller(let's say 50mm in diameter)we need at least a 60cm long filler ?!!!so wath about the rest of the tank?and realy what is the rest for?if anyone may give help I'll be so much greatefull.

[Scrutinizer]

high friends.in the case of fuel tank design we have encountered a confusing problem.if sight tube reads the amount of fuel consumed in endurance event so there is just the fuel inside the filler pipe between lower and higher lines marked on sight tube on debate.so even with so a wide fller(let's say 50mm in diameter)we need at least a 60cm long filler ?!!!so wath about the rest of the tank?and realy what is the rest for?if anyone may give help I'll be so much greatefull.

[Dan Deussen @ Weber Motor]

First of all I would recommend that you use a meaningful name for a thread that you start in a forum. That way people know what the thread is about.

Now to answer your question:
The sight tube is supposed to have a fill line marking that is used to determin when the tank is full. Your tank will be filled up to this mark before the endurance event. Then you drive the event and if you finish you will get topped off again to the fill line marking and the amount of fuel used for the refill will be measured. This way your fuel economy will be known.

[Scrutinizer]

hi Dan. thank you for your attention.nice to say that a judicious deciosion over the size of fuel tank reqiers some experience gain through real events wheras we don't have .could you guide me if don't mind.
have a nice time.

[Brett Neale]

A fuel tank of around 6L is plenty for the endurance event. Also remember that since the tank is filled to the fill line on your filler neck, there is some extra fuel held in that section too.

If you have a look at previous results from past FSAE events, every team that finished the enduro has their fuel consumption recorded on the results sheet. You can use this to figure out what sort of tank size you'll need.

[rjwoods77]

I just had a funny thought about cheating. You already havewires and lines running into the tank. You could cheat/pick up a bunch of points by having a little air pump fill a bladder in the tank just before you measure the consumption after the race is over. Obviously you wouldnt make it look like you consumed none or less than you should have, but it would be a fun way of running your car rich for performance/cooling during the race and make it look like you were racing a supermilage car.

[James Waltman]

That's nothing new.
Smokey Yunick did it in Nascar a long time ago:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Another Yunick improvisation was getting around the regulations specifying a maximum size for the fuel tank, by using eleven foot coils of 2-inch diameter tubing for the fuel line to add about 5 gallons[1] to the car's fuel capacity. Once, NASCAR officials came up with a list of nine items for Yunick to fix before the car would be allowed on the track. The suspicious NASCAR officials had removed the tank for inspection. Yunick started the car with no gas tank and said "Better make it ten",[2] and drove it back to the pits. He used a basketball in the fuel tank which could be inflated when the car's fuel capacity was checked and deflated for the race. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokey_Yunick

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so how many points do you believe you could gain from this? remember the event is only worth 50 points total.

it would only be worth considering if your car was a complete and utter thirst quencher! with the deminishing gains from an already efficient car you might expect to gain what 5 points?

[rjwoods77]

Look at the points spread and you tell me.

[murpia]

A related issue occurred to me recently... It might be useful to run a 'swirl pot' or 'fuel collector' in the main tank, to get reliable fuel pickup. This is a smaller tank, usually tall and thin, which is fed by one or more low pressure lift pumps. The high pressure fuel pump is fed from this collector tank. I have experience of this kind of system outside FSAE and it means you can reliably run the tank dry with no pickup or fuel pressure issues.

When refuelling with such a system, it's necessary to run the lift pumps to refill the collector, otherwise you can have an empty collector but a full tank = less total fuel.

Do the FSAE refuellers take this into account and request the fuel pumps be activated when refilling after endurance? Otherwise a team could start with a full tank & full collector, then use the collector fuel but not have it replaced afterwards.

Regards, Ian

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Rob, why would you even publically suggest a way to cheat...dumbass move on your part.

[rjwoods77]

Just pointing something out I was thinking and do you think it already hasnt been done. Teams cheat all the time. Everyone knows about doing false rpm reads for sound. Tons of teams revert to track maps after tech. On and on and on. Now you know to look for extra wires or additional lines into the tank no dont you?

[BStoney]

I can't even believe we're talking about this on here...how pathetic... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Boston]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rob Woods:
Just pointing something out I was thinking and do you think it already hasnt been done. Teams cheat all the time. Everyone knows about doing false rpm reads for sound. Tons of teams revert to track maps after tech. On and on and on. Now you know to look for extra wires or additional lines into the tank no dont you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Rob, this is probably the most helpful thing you've contributed to FSAE.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rob Woods:
Look at the points spread and you tell me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How is that relevant Rob?

I already mentioned that this 'cheating' has deminishing returns depending on fuel economy.

Asides from competing with singles, four cylinder cars be it NA of FI are all within a fairly narrow range (efficient cars anyway)

[Wesley]

The whole sport is about cheating - getting an unfair advantage over the other competitors to win the race.

It's just that sometimes you're ruled in favor of, and sometimes you're ruled against. Bending the rules is how you win races. It's also how the rules get stricter.

[Chris Allbee]

Bad Wes....you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting such a notion http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Erich Ohlde]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ad:
so how many points do you believe you could gain from this? remember the event is only worth 50 points total.

it would only be worth considering if your car was a complete and utter thirst quencher! with the deminishing gains from an already efficient car you might expect to gain what 5 points? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just like to point out that the University of Kansas was 3.7 points out of 1st place at 07 FSAE West. Every point helps. However i'm not condoning cheating.

[Pete M]

Yeah, and we were 0.477 points off 2nd place at FSAE West 2006. It's funny that ad made that comment, because he was on that team with me!

Of course i'm not condoning cheating either, but that result taught us the hard way to never treat any possible (legal) increase in points as minor. IIRC, we hit one cone in the endurance, that cone cost us 2nd place. In fact, there are dozens of ways we could have got 2nd by getting that 1 extra point.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pete M:
Yeah, and we were 0.477 points off 2nd place at FSAE West 2006. It's funny that ad made that comment, because he was on that team with me!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol yes

i guess im not one to cheat :P