Tire Data Idea

[Denny Trimble]

This idea came to me in our team meeting today, so I'd like to throw it out to the FSAE community to see what your response is.

Goodyear publishes free tire data, which is good, but we're not sure it's valid at our very low normal loads, and we'd like to see more of the data than the pacejka coefficients.

A few teams have paid to have other brands of tires tested commercially, but not many.

What if teams that wanted the data chipped in to get our favorite flavors of Goodyear, Hoosier, Avon, etc. tested to common specs at a single facility? We'd have to pay for the tires and the testing fees, but if we split it up it could be very affordable.

Teams that paid a share of the costs would be inclined to not share the data to teams that don't pay up, so I wouldn't consider it throwing away your money.

Also, many of us need more complete tire data to go on with simulations and even basic vehicle dynamics calculations. It could be a lot of fun deciding exactly how to run these tests.

Why not help each other get the data? I believe the judges care more about what you do with it, than how you came about it.

Just a guess on the costs:
Tires: $500/set, one set per size (?), four sizes per manufacturer, three manufacturers, = $6000
Testing Fees: $2000 to $10000 (WAG)
Total Cost: $8000 to $16000

10 Teams would pay up to $1600 each, 20 would pay $800 each, and it gets better as we add teams.

Any chance teams with tire sponsors can donate tires for testing? I suspect that might be frowned upon, but you never know.

Please post here if you're interested, and maybe soon we can get together and start making it happen.

[Denny Trimble]

This idea came to me in our team meeting today, so I'd like to throw it out to the FSAE community to see what your response is.

Goodyear publishes free tire data, which is good, but we're not sure it's valid at our very low normal loads, and we'd like to see more of the data than the pacejka coefficients.

A few teams have paid to have other brands of tires tested commercially, but not many.

What if teams that wanted the data chipped in to get our favorite flavors of Goodyear, Hoosier, Avon, etc. tested to common specs at a single facility? We'd have to pay for the tires and the testing fees, but if we split it up it could be very affordable.

Teams that paid a share of the costs would be inclined to not share the data to teams that don't pay up, so I wouldn't consider it throwing away your money.

Also, many of us need more complete tire data to go on with simulations and even basic vehicle dynamics calculations. It could be a lot of fun deciding exactly how to run these tests.

Why not help each other get the data? I believe the judges care more about what you do with it, than how you came about it.

Just a guess on the costs:
Tires: $500/set, one set per size (?), four sizes per manufacturer, three manufacturers, = $6000
Testing Fees: $2000 to $10000 (WAG)
Total Cost: $8000 to $16000

10 Teams would pay up to $1600 each, 20 would pay $800 each, and it gets better as we add teams.

Any chance teams with tire sponsors can donate tires for testing? I suspect that might be frowned upon, but you never know.

Please post here if you're interested, and maybe soon we can get together and start making it happen.

[jack]

I'm in!!!!

--now to convince the team...

[Patrick W. Crane]

Me too.

-- also convincing the team...

though we are a bit short on cash once 20 teams are in i think we can justify it pretty easily

Patrick Crane
University of victoria
www.uvic.fsae.ca (http://www.uvic.fsae.ca)

[Schumi_Jr]

Denny, we've been looking into this ourselves but I like the idea of pooling resources to get more data.

We got a quote from Smithers Scientific in Ohio for testing 1 tire construction. The basic tests were a camber sweep at 5 different loads (zero slip), a slip angle sweep at 5 different loads (zero camber) and a second slip angle sweep at 5 different loads (cambered tire)

The quoted cost was $3075 USD/construction. They wanted 2 sets of tires to perform these tests but at the loads involved I question if it's necessary.

Personally, I'd like to get more combined slip angle/camber data and a slip ratio sweep at 5 different loads would be essential. Beyond that It may become cost prohibitive.

[jdstuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
They wanted 2 sets of tires to perform these tests but at the loads involved I question if it's necessary.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been working in the engineering end of a tire company for the past 2 years (no, it's not Goodyear), and I have compiled a lot of physical test data on our tires. (And no I am not willing to share the info freely, but if you have a specific question feel free to email me).

I reckon the reason that Smithers is asking for 2 tires is for test REPEATABILITY.....not because of the destructiveness of the test. As an engineer, you should realize that one data point of anything should not be trusted without serious question.

One reason why it would be smart to test multiple tires would be the VARIABILITY in the construction of bias-ply tires. Bias-ply tires are built on a single stage drum, whereas modern radials are built in 2 stages. In short, building on a single stage requires the tire to strech quite a bit more once it is forced into the mold. If you don't believe me, try mounting up 10 of your tires at the same inflation pressure, and then measure the OD's....chances are you'll get several different values. Also, if you were to cut the tires and measured the bias angles, you would also get several different values.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Denny, since I live in Akron and work in the tire industry, I happend to know a few people from Smithers. If you would like me to put you in contact with them once you gather a crew, I would be happy to. Another excellent tire testing company to consider would be Standards Testing Lab (STL) in Massillon, OH...I have a number for them as well.

Best of luck,

[Buckingham]

We are interested. I will run it by the team at the next meeting.

Two suggestions:

What is the feasibility of testing rain tires? Yes I know the coefficient may ultimately depend on how much rain we are talking about, but something is better than nothing.

Is it possible to test the tires at different temperatures? I am a lot more interested in what our tires can do on a cold 50 degree Michigan morning than what they do in a lab environment.


Donavan Haidinger
Suspension Guy
Wisconsin.....The Other UW

[RickyRacer]

I would have to make sure it is ok with our advisor, but you could pretty much count in Long Beach

[Ben Beacock]

what would the timeframe be on such an endeavour? Would we have data by next May?
Count us in as interested.

[Chris Clarke]

We are interested depending on the costs.

Chris

University of British Columbia

[fsae racer]

Florida is in if you can get 20. I am assuming that we are talkin 13's right?

[Denny Trimble]

To answer a few questions:

Nick,
I'd like to see 10" data too, and if enough teams get onboard, it should be economical. More data = better design decisions.

Ben,
I think it could get done before May, but it depends. The lead time items would be organizing ourselves, getting our money together, getting tires from the manufacturers (who may be out of certain sizes), and getting the test scheduled and completed. If we got it done before May, we could have some quick validation calcs to show the judges, but I think the main value of the data would be when it comes to next year's initial design process. Quantifying tradeoffs with real data... I'm in love already.

Donavan,
I don't know anything about testing in the wet or at certain temperatures. Jason, any experience there?

Jason and Aaron,
Thanks for your information! I'll definitely be asking you guys for recommendations when it comes time to plan the tests.

For now, a summary of the teams who have expressed interest:
1) University of Washington
2) WWU
3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
9) UF

I'd also like to invite all the international teams. I realize the Aussies are busy this week, so we should wait a while to give them time to sign up.

If we can get up to 30 teams, we should be down in the $500/team range. Tell all your friends!

[rjwoods77]

For now, a summary of the teams who have expressed interest:
1) University of Washington
2) WWU
3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo

[Jared Garvey]

You can add the University of Pittsburgh to the list of teams interested:

1) University of Washington
2) WWU
3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
11) University of Pittsburgh


Jared Garvey
University of Pittsburgh
Suspension Lead
http://www.engr.pitt.edu/fsae/

[ethanL007]

For now, a summary of the teams who have expressed interest:
1) University of Washington
2) WWU
3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
11) University of New Hampshire
*(pending beating my quasi-accountant into submission)

[Greg Stevenson]

Oakland University will be in. Providing the team agrees, but that shouldn't be an issue. Just let me know when more information is gathered.ggsteven@oakland.edu

[Tony K]

Colorado State University is interested as well... provided we haven't blown all of our budget on Mountain Dew by the time everyone gets organized.

[dartmouth01]

Dartmouth may be interested, depending on how much it ultimately costs.

[rjwoods77]

What if we had enough teams agree (some high percentage) to get rid of the SAE discounts on the tires (agreement with the suppliers) in exchange for solid repeatable data sets provided by the manufactures. Seems alot easier than going through the trouble of independant testing. Get it straight from the source and for the trouble they dont have to discount anymore. They would save money and it would be cheaper than evevryone pitching in say 500 bucks for it. Thats alot of if s but it is worth looking into.

[Patrick W. Crane]

there are a few issues i see with that

1. If we have it done, the results would be more "comparable". We can decide the loads and slip angles. The conditions will be exactly the same for all the tyre manufacturers we test. No rogue manufacturer deciding the average weight is 700 instead of 650 or some such thing. (i believe this would happen for reason number 2)

2. I sometimes find it hard to trust data from manufacturers because they're trying to get you to buy their products not the other guy's.

3. to get the companies to agree to drop the discount, you are going to have to get about 150 teams to agree. then the cost would be less that 100dollars anyway. And if we have that much interest we could do it every few years to stay current with new tyre compounds.

does anyone have any idea what the number of teams world wide is?

[Birelfanatic]

Please add Ryerson University to the list of teams that are interested.

I shall be bringing this up in the meeting tonight to get the final word.

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

We (École Polytechnique) would be interested as well.

1) University of Washington
2) WWU
3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal

[Dr Claw]

Well, i'm pretty confident that lawrence tech is interested, just a matter of convincing the team.

what kind of dates are we looking at, btw?

[syoung]

Warwick is interested, as long as we run the tests on 10" tyres as well as 13s.

(Dependent on cost, same as everyone else has said, but we're not doing too badly for sponsorship this year so count us in).

[Ché]

Denny-

This sounds like a great idea but I feel would only really be helpful if we tested all of the most common sizes, manufactures and compounds. For example consider just Hoosier and Goodyear: There are several sizes for 10" and 13" that are run, as well as the different compounds (and rain), if we need two or more tires of each size to get more reliable test data we could be looking at a lot of testing. And of course there are teams that run other brands like Avon and sizes that aren't 13" or 10"

I'm all for the idea and would really like to see it happen. But we could easily need to test 15 pairs of tires to cover each teams requirements.

Maybe if the interested teams could add the tire size they are running this year next to there name we could get a better idea of what tires would like to be tested. I'll start...
1) University of Washington
2) WWU
Front D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
Rear D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
WET D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10
(These are Goodyears btw)

3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal

[Denny Trimble]

Ché,
Good idea to list tire sizes we're interested in. I'd also like to see data on various rim widths for each tire, different pressures, etc. but at some point we'll have to limit the variables.

I'll add our tires to the list:

1) University of Washington
Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
Front GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
Rear GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
WET GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10
3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK

[syoung]

1) University of Washington
Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
Front GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
Rear GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
WET GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10
3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).

[DJHache]

I think you can put down Texas at Austin. We run 20x6-13 Hoosiers. It'd be good to get comparative test data finally.

[Chris Clarke]

1) University of Washington
Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison

2) WWU
Front GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
Rear GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
WET GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10

3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
20x6.5x13 R093 Goodyears

9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).

20) Texas at Arlington
20x6-13 Hoosiers

[carcar]

1) University of Washington
Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison

2) WWU
Front GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
Rear GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
WET GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10

3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
20x6.5x13 R093 Goodyears

9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
20x6x13 Hoosier R25
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).

20) Texas at Arlington
20x6-13 Hoosiers

[DJHache]

1) University of Washington
Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison

2) WWU
Front GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
Rear GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
WET GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10

3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
20x6.5x13 R093 Goodyears

9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
20x6x13 Hoosier R25
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).

20) Texas at Arlington
21) Texas at Austin
20x6-13 Hoosiers

[rjwoods77]

1) University of Washington
Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison

2) WWU
Front GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
Rear GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
WET GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10

3) UVIC
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
20x6.5x13 R093 Goodyears

9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
all goodyear and Hoosier 18" od, 10 inch rim tires
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
20x6x13 Hoosier R25
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).

20) Texas at Arlington
20x6-13 Hoosiers

[Patrick W. Crane]

posted December 02, 2004 02:34 PM
1) University of Washington
Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison

2) WWU
Front GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
Rear GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
WET GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10

3) UVIC
Front/rear GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
Front/rear Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)

4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
20x6.5x13 R093 Goodyears

9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
all goodyear and Hoosier 18" od, 10 inch rim tires
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
20x6x13 Hoosier R25
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).

20) Texas at Arlington
20x6-13 Hoosiers

[Denny Trimble]

I think Arlington got confused with Austin somewhere. Here's a corrected list, at some point this will have to leave the forum, but not yet.

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13

[BrianD]

I talked to a gentleman from the General Dynamics Tire Testing Facility in Buffalo, NY at the Motorsports conference. He said if we could get a group of teams together, they would do the testing for a reduced price, as he seemed very interested in our project. He said he would run it by their management when he got back. I have his contact information if you would like it.

Brian Dwornick
Lawrence Tech Univ
bd000034081@ltu.edu

[Buckingham]

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13, D1883: R065 - 20.5x6.5-13 RAIN
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13

[ethanL007]

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13, D1883: R065 - 20.5x6.5-13 RAIN
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
Same set as Washington.
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13

[Ben Beacock]

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13, D1883: R065 - 20.5x6.5-13 RAIN
6) Long Beach
7) Guelph
-GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (to compare)

8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
Same set as Washington.
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13

[RickyRacer]

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13, D1883: R065 - 20.5x6.5-13 RAIN
6) Long Beach
MICHELIN 13"(not sure what the compound is)
LeCont 13"(not sure what the compound is)
7) Guelph
-GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (to compare)

8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
Same set as Washington.
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13

[fsae racer]

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13, D1883: R065 - 20.5x6.5-13 RAIN
6) Long Beach
MICHELIN 13"(not sure what the compound is)
LeCont 13"(not sure what the compound is)
7) Guelph
-GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (to compare)
8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 r25a
-a LeCont (although I heard they are not making them in our sizes anymore), Michelin, Dunlop, Silverstone, Avon, and one of those special Continentals would be cool too (I know just a little over zealous)
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
Same set as Washington.
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13

[Mark Bacchetti]

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13, D1883: R065 - 20.5x6.5-13 RAIN
6) Long Beach
MICHELIN 13"(not sure what the compound is)
LeCont 13"(not sure what the compound is)
7) Guelph
-GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (to compare)
8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 r25a
-a LeCont (although I heard they are not making them in our sizes anymore), Michelin, Dunlop, Silverstone, Avon, and one of those special Continentals would be cool too (I know just a little over zealous)
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
Same set as Washington.
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Tech
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13
21) Cal Poly Pomona
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A
-Goodyear 20x8(and/or)6.5-13 R065 (or whatever is the stickiest...R093??)

[BrianD]

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13, D1883: R065 - 20.5x6.5-13 RAIN
6) Long Beach
MICHELIN 13"(not sure what the compound is)
LeCont 13"(not sure what the compound is)
7) Guelph
-GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (to compare)
8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 r25a
-a LeCont (although I heard they are not making them in our sizes anymore), Michelin, Dunlop, Silverstone, Avon, and one of those special Continentals would be cool too (I know just a little over zealous)
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
Same set as Washington.
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Technological University
-Hoosier 20x7.0-13 R25A
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 R25A
-Goodyear 20x6.5-13 R065
-Goodyear 20x8.0-13 R065
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13
21) Cal Poly Pomona
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A
-Goodyear 20x8(and/or)6.5-13 R065 (or whatever is the stickiest...R093??)

[Birelfanatic]

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13, D1883: R065 - 20.5x6.5-13 RAIN
6) Long Beach
MICHELIN 13"(not sure what the compound is)
LeCont 13"(not sure what the compound is)
7) Guelph
-GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (to compare)
8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 r25a
-a LeCont (although I heard they are not making them in our sizes anymore), Michelin, Dunlop, Silverstone, Avon, and one of those special Continentals would be cool too (I know just a little over zealous)
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
Same set as Washington.
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Technological University
-Hoosier 20x7.0-13 R25A
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 R25A
-Goodyear 20x6.5-13 R065
-Goodyear 20x8.0-13 R065
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13
21) Cal Poly Pomona
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A
-Goodyear 20x8(and/or)6.5-13 R065 (or whatever is the stickiest...R093??)

[vinHonda]

Congrats to all those teams now who have together pooled resources in order to attain very expensive tire data!

Last year when I did my final year thesis, I managed to convince our faculty it was worth spending $8000USD to get a full set of tire data for a bunch of brands at 2 camber inclinations (I wish I had 3) a bunch of slip angles yadayadayada. Unfortunately, my thesis is confidential info, which belongs to the University of Toronto (cuz they paid for it and our trip down to Ravenna Ohio to Smithers Scientific).

I want to stress a few things (and things I'd do if I could do my thesis over):

- the costs go up largely due to camber inclinations, but it's rather important to get 3 or even 4 inclinations

- the experience of SEEING an MTS tire testing machine is ALL worth the $$$ so if this does get organized......try to BE present

- the tests typically use 80 grit sandpaper as the track, try to find something less grippy (and ask to use some sprinkling of sand on the track if they'll let u)

I learned a lot when I got to go to Smither's Scientific in Ravenna Ohio mainly due to the fact that tire guru Marion Pottinger was the Technical director there at the time.....unfortunately he has now retired. He is up there in the tire guru ranks of Paul Haney, Hans B. Pacejka, John C. Dixon, Pierre Dupasquier, Hisao Suganuma, and Hiroshi Yasukawa.

Let me also stress to you that tire data will not win you the enduro or autocross either! Not even the design event......but it WILL put a big smile on your face when you start designing your suspension and doing car setup purely from the satisfaction that you know you're getting the most out of your tire. Other then that...we all know that a well built car, a smoothly process-run & organized team, lots of testing time and a balls out driver will put u in the top 20 at FSAE for sure and even the top 5 at Formula Student.

Good luck on your quest for understanding black magic aka the other rubber product that's just as fun when you use it!

I hope to be judging at the 05 FSAE.

Cheers to all teams.

Vinh Pham
Engineer, Product Quality
Toyota Canada Inc.

University of Toronto Formula SAE
Team Captain 03, 04

[Jenny]

1) University of Washington
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A (FSAE spec)
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A, just curious how these will compare
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A, again for comparison
2) WWU
-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
3) UVIC
-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (FSAE spec) (also have a set of these)
4) Waterloo
5) Wisconsin-Madison GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13, D1883: R065 - 20.5x6.5-13 RAIN
6) Long Beach
MICHELIN 13"(not sure what the compound is)
LeCont 13"(not sure what the compound is)
7) Guelph
-GY D1385: R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A (to compare)
8) UBC
-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
9) UF
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 r25a
-a LeCont (although I heard they are not making them in our sizes anymore), Michelin, Dunlop, Silverstone, Avon, and one of those special Continentals would be cool too (I know just a little over zealous)
10) University of Buffalo
-GY / Hoosier 18xAll Widths-10
11) University of Pittsburgh
12) University of New Hampshire
Same set as Washington.
13) Oakland University
-Hoosier 20x6x13 R25A
14) Colorado State University
15) Dartmouth
16) Ryerson University
-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A
17) École Polytechnique de Montréal
18) Lawrence Technological University
-Hoosier 20x7.0-13 R25A
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 R25A
-Goodyear 20x6.5-13 R065
-Goodyear 20x8.0-13 R065
19) Warwick UK
-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A (as Washington).
20) Texas at Austin
-Hoosier 20x6-13
21) Cal Poly Pomona
-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A
-Goodyear 20x8(and/or)6.5-13 R065
22) Saginaw Valley State University
- Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A
- Goodyear 20x6.5-13
We are in if the cost is around $600

Contact jlpetten@svsu.edu once things get moving

[IsheeM]

Denny,
What is the proposed dealine? Also, if teams cant afford to purchase the data this year, what will be the stipulation to allow them to purchase the data next year?

[Denny Trimble]

Michael,
I think a deadline of the first week in January should allow time for all the teams to be contacted (even outside this forum), and given the opportunity to sign up. Following a commitment of those teams, we can decide which tires and variables to test.

As for buying data later, it depends. If we have to pay testing cost up-front and we're given the data, then perhaps teams could "buy shares" of the project, with each share-holding-team receiving an equal part of the new team's investment.

One thing I want to avoid is teams paying $500 for this data now, then other teams somehow getting the data for $200 later.

I'll need help organizing this, perhaps we can have people in charge of:
-Finances & Team Coordination
-Testing Design & Coordination
-Data Analysis & Distribution

Any volunteers?

[Storbeck]

I am curious how they do these tire tests. Do they put the tire at some camber and normal load, then sweep it through the slip angles?

So you do one sweep each with various set normal loads and cambers? How do they take heating of the tire and wear into consideration?

[Cement Legs]

I think this is a great idea, but also wish more teams would consider. There is probably 40-50 teams out there thinking man if this was 200-300 bucks we'd be in for sure (like us, small school + small market = ridiculously small budget). If they all spoke up then the cost would drop significantly for everyone. So in the interest of seeing what teams would consider buying in if the above case happened (ie price dropped to &lt; $300) I'll start a second list:

1. University of New Brunswick
-Hoosier 20x7.0-13 R25A
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 R25A
-Goodyear 20x6.5-13 R065
-Goodyear 20x8.0-13 R065

[Patrick W. Crane]

AS of january i will be on co-op (lots of time on my hands) and would be more than happy to help with anything technical.

let me know what you specificaly need help with.

pacrane at uvic dot ca

[Ballzac]

I've been watching this thread for a while, and I think Windsor will be in, but I need to confirm with the team. We should know in the next couple days.

[Mark Bacchetti]

Denny,

I have some interest in helping the coordination of this project. Is it correct for me to assume that you are taking the role as project manager?

You can email me at mark.bacchetti@gmail.com . I'll be checking this post on a regular basis.

-Mark
Cal Poly Pomona ('02,'03,'04)

[Cement Legs]

He has project manager stamped all over his forehead in bright red ink... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif What a bonus it would be though to be able to go down and take part in or witness the testing.

Cheers

[vinHonda]

Witnessing tire testing is pretty cool.....esp when you pull the tire off the machine and it sticks to the ground and you can't peel it off...(and then u wish the Silverdome parking lot was all 80 grit sandpaper!)

You purchase tire testing based on camber inclinations. At each inclination, Smither's Scientific will load the tire in 50lbs. increments up to 300lbs. and at each increment, do a sweep from -15 to +15 degrees of slip. THere is a huge long tire exercising before the actual test is done so the tire is broken in.

I HIGHLY recommend seeing what an MTS flat trac tire testing machine can do. Seeing it first hand is really cool.

Cheers,

Vinh

[Dr Claw]

Our chassis suspension leader at LTU (briand) met a guy from general dynamics at the motorsports conference and he was talking about this very sort of thing. we'll find out more about what he is willing to do, and post it back in this thread.

[rjwoods77]

General Dynamics Veridine testing facility is 10 minutes from University of Buffalo. We would be more than happy to do any running around for this endevor if they are the ones chosen to do it. Also if they allow us to come watch the UB team would be more than happy to put people up.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hello all,

I also talked with Dave and Sam from the General Dynamics (Calspan) TIRF facility at the SAE Motorsports conference this week. As one of the UB students already posted, TIRF is located in our backyward (Buffalo, NY). I have a working relationship with these people through my position at Milliken Research and am very familiar with tire testing techniques.

The first concern as to whether enough teams would be interested to make it affordable appears to be resolved. I fully expect the list of schools to continue to grow.

The next issue is what kinds of tires to test. That list, too, is growing. A decent tire test costs appx. $10000, so we're not going to be able to do them all. The folks at TIRF are willing to give us a break on the price in the interest of doing something for education, but they're not willing to lose thier shirt on this, either.

As far as timing goes, TIRF is a VERY busy facility. They are booked solid (two shifts) for the next 4 months. It will be early next summer before we can get time on the machine. If all goes well, we could have tire data available for the design on the '06 car.

I also talked with Doug Milliken of Milliken Research and he said that MRA is willing to reduce the data into a tire model which can be provided along with the raw data at nominal cost (if any).

Now, it's time to start getting organized. I will handle all the negotiations with the people at TIRF--made easier since I've done this before. I will also take the lead in organizing the test sequence. I will get in touch with Dave on Monday and let you know what they're thinking.

Denny, how about if you keep track of universities that are "interested" and those that are "committed". For starters, let's set the financial commitment level at $500. This may go down as time progresses or we may be able to test more types of tires...either way it's dirt cheap for quality tire data. Let's also set a commitment date for early-to-mid January. At that time we will try to finalize the tires to test and get time scheduled on the machine.

Since the design of a racecar is all about optimizing the use of tires, it's great that we're finally going to design from some real tire data. The data Goodyear has posted in the past has been a start, but there's nothing like working from the raw data measured on your own tires...and from the world's top tire testing facility at that!

I'll keep everyone informed,
Edward

[Denny Trimble]

Edward,
Thanks for offering to help, this project looks like it's really starting to take off now!

I know Brian Dwornick (BrianD on this forum) is also interested in coordinating and designing the tests, so perhaps you two can work together.

I'd be happy to contact the rest of the teams, I'll try asking SAE if they can forward an email to all team captains and faculty advisors.

I'm not a business student, so I wonder how we should handle our finances. Ideally, teams could send their money to a single, trusted entity who would then pay the tire testing company and the tire manufacturers.

The most straightforward way would be to send our checks to the tire testing company, if they don't mind contacting the tire manufacturers and purchasing tires.

Mark B, maybe you can help me figure something out here?

UMR emailed me privately to add their name to the list of schools, so here's the updated list:

*EDIT*
I put the list into a spreadsheet. Please email me if you'd like to be added, or to change your tire interest selections. It's pretty clear the Hoosier and Goodyear standard sizes will be tested, but there are a few outliers at this point that might not have enough support to justify the additional cost.

The spreadsheet is here. (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/index.shtml)

[Cement Legs]

I'm thinking that if we contact Hoosier and Goodyear that we may be able to get free tires for the test. My logic behind this is that if we only tested goodyear and had really good data on their tires, there would likely be teams that would switch from Hoosier. It would be in Hoosier's best interest in that scenario to contribute for testing as well. I doubt that either manufacturers test data would put them off of anyones list. You would simply be able to pick which of the tires has the starting baseline that you want to work with and design up from there. Denny have you or anyone else contacted any of these distributors with this in mind. I am very interested in getting this data but our team is on a small budget so for us deciding whether or not to commit unfortunately comes down to bottom line. I would be willing to look into this if no one else steps up. I would just need more specific information on what tests will be performed from which I could prepare a proposal.

I also like the initiative you came up with about selling shares to the rights to the data, and distibuting future revenue amongst share holding teams. I would even add one point to that idea. I would suggest that any team that wants the data after the initial offering would buy in at say 80% the original /team cost; however, they would not get 'a share', or a return on any future revenue. Or, they coud buy in at say 125% of the price and collect future share revenue. Just throwing around ideas that may help morivate teams to buy in at this expensive juncture.

Hey Vin, how many different tires did you test at the two camber inclinations for $8000. Edward could you elaborate on "a good tire test costs $10,000" I'm just curious to know what that includes 9ie camber inclination, slip angles, number of tires).

Cheers

[Dr Claw]

i dunno cement,

i have a feeling that this is going to highlight 'the best tire for comp' and i have a feeling its going to do a bunch of different things to fsae.

in 'real' racing, there are reasons that tire data is so secretive, mostly because teams sign contracts with tire companies, and those companies dont necisarily want a team thats under contract to know if the grass is greener on the other side (so as to sign them on again when the current contract expires). with our purposed testing of every known fsae tire, those that are in the know will all end up running the same tire and it will make for both a more competitive (which is not necisarily a good thing), and more bland competition. bland due to the lack of variety of tires on race day, and new ideas; more competitive in the sense that everyone will be using the same base numbers in their suspension designs (this feeds right back into the lack of new ideas..) making it harder to have a better performing car than everyone else. this seems to be good for racing...but its almost not in the spirit of it...if we are all doing the same thing, that is http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

its also going to eliminate the need to worry about your tires too. maybe not for 2006, as everyone will feverishly study and work over the volumes of data to pick that best tire....but future teams will be inclined to just carry over 'the best tire' and use that. this will overall hurt competition, and in the end hurt the learning side of fsae. sure it will create some killer 2006 tire engineers...but i cant put it up to many future teams to actually redo work thats been done before. its gonna be interesting to say the least.

just random reflections btw. im still all for testing, and i'd like to say that LTU is committed to this, so you can count on our money.

[Mark Bacchetti]

Denny-
I have a feeling that tire manufacturers/testing facilities will not want to get individual checks from 50+ teams. We will probably have to send the checks to a trusted entity.

Here are some ideas off the top of my head. Please let me know what you think.

1. Do you think SAE might be able to help us here? Maybe we can use SAE staff or professional members to help collect the money and write a check.

2. Is there a website that we could use to collect the money (e.g. Paypal.com)? This may allow a group of coordinators to oversee the management of the money. A system like this will also help with currency exchange.

Any other thoughts?

Mark
Cal Poly Pomona

[Patrick W. Crane]

Maybe this is not quite as simple as this, but why not open a temporary acount with a name like "tire testing for fsae teams" and have evryone write checks to that acount.then have it so that you need to have the signatures from a bunch of people - say everyone that is going to go to the actual testing. Or a few of if there are going to be lots there.

is something like this possible or is it just to complicated. it would also allow the "shares" idea to work (i think)

just and idea off the top of my head.. details would obviously need to be worked out.

[Craig.]

If an email is sent to all teams, it may be a good idea to be including all international teams in this also. No doubt, many would be interested. Some of these may also add demand for some of the less common tires in the US.

Btw, great idea. It's great to see people with the initiative to take the next step. I think this competition really is changing.

[Test Driver]

Hello,

In case you're interested, I happen to know of a tire testing facility where you could have four (possibly more) professional tire test driver/engineers, with hundreds of hours of actual fsae car experience test your tires for free. Hell, you could even get wet handling testing thrown in http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously, all tire companies, in spite of having millions of dollars worth of tire testing machines do handling tests at sites like this on a regular basis.

Ramon

[Denny Trimble]

Ramon,
Are you talking about instrumented vehicle tests? Does your company have a few 400-500lb vehicles with various weight distributions, diffs, steering geometry etc?

Maybe you can enlighten us on what the benefits of handling tests are compared to / combined with tire machine test data. It would be a lot of fun to bring an FSAE car down to your facility, but the travel cost, plus the average reliability of an FSAE car, could be a problem.

[Patrick W. Crane]

How do you do a slip angle sweep while driving the car? I guess you could have a data recorder that caculates actual path and wheel steering angle. But that seems pretty inacurate because you have to rely on the driver to keep the car perfectly constant (or to turn a VERY smooth decreasing radius turn, then do the exact same turn several times...). Plus you need the equipment to measure all that.

Am i not understanding something?

[V2 - Italy]

Please, could someone tell us the weight of the GY 20.0x6.5-13 R065 D1385, and the driving feeling related to the Hoosier?

We are trying to buy GY in Europe but it is not easy and cheap.

Thank you

V2

[Test Driver]

No instrumented testing unless it's of your design. And no, we have no such vehicles here.

Slip angle is very dificult to measure acurately on vehicle and as far as I know, can only be done with optical wheel sensors which is beyond the scope I suggested.

What I meant is more a complimentary rather than exclusive option. You could see immediate real results (good and bad) from the settings suggested by the indoor test data. The results could include both objective data (accelerations, lap times) and professional subjective input.

While having data on hand to guide design and impress ever insentient judges is worthwhile, I think you'll agree that 80 grit on a roll or flat track is merely a starting point. The tire-road interaction is complex to say the least and even if you designed the perfect suspension on the perfect car that kept the contact patch at the exact orientation suggested by the indoor tests, you'll find the optimum settings may vary greatly from this and only through real world testing.

Of course, this is not exactly revealing information to most on this list. I was just offering a source of qualified evaluation. Besides, you can't beat the price.


Ramon

[V2 - Italy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by V2 - Italy:
Please, could someone tell us the weight of the GY 20.0x6.5-13 R065 D1385, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found it: 8.5 Lbs

[Ben Beacock]

From what I heard at the motorsport conference: GM uses 120 grit belts and they do something to them that make them model more like pavement.

Perhaps we can request 120grit belts at least?
I wonder if this would also prolong the life of the tire in the test, allowing more data to be collected?

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by V2 - Italy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by V2 - Italy:
Please, could someone tell us the weight of the GY 20.0x6.5-13 R065 D1385, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found it: 8.5 Lbs <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This might be Goodyear advertised, but we just got some in at around 11.5 lbs each.

We have found the tire weights can vary by as much as 1 lb even with the same batch.

[V2 - Italy]

Thank you Charlie.

We used Avon tires and we found a weight difference only changing compounds.

V2

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hello All,

I've been in touch with Dave at TIRF. They're very pleased with the interest as they are looking to contribute to education, establish engineering contacts for the future and get their name out there. They're not going to charge full-price for this FSAE test.

Tire tests would nominally consist of slip angle sweeps at about 4 different loads, 3 different inclination angles and 2 different pressures. Driving/braking tests (slip ratio sweeps) could also be run, but only on the larger diameter tires--they can only get the drive shaft so close to the belt.

The tests would be videotaped. Also, TIRF is interested in having some students watch the tests in person--they can accomodate 5-10 per test day. Testing may take three or four days. The first opportunity to test is August '05, and the sooner we get our act together the sooner we can lock-in time on the machine.

TIRF's immediate concern is to try to determine the types of tires that are in use. They want to test as many types of tires as possible, but the more tires tested the shorter the test (less data) on each tire. Here's my summary of the list appearing on the forum--please add your tire if you haven't already supplied this info (first number is number of schools):

2-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A
4-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A
2-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A
5-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A
2-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 R25A

1-GY D1103, R085 - 18.0x6.5-10 Rains
1-GY D1383, R065 - 18.0x6.5-10
1-GY D1384, R065 - 18.0x7.5-10
5-GY D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13
1-GY 20x6.5x13 R093
2-Goodyear 20x8.0-13 R065

1-MICHELIN 13"
1-LeCont 13"

Once we get a representative list together we can work-out more details on the testing.

It's definitely worth a try to get GY and Hoosier to donate tires (and maybe $$$?) to this effort. Any volunteers to take this ball and run with it?

Organizing n schools is potentially difficult financially. Of course, TIRF only wants to deal with one name on the contract and not with every school individually. I like the idea of "shares" that has been proposed, and the account certainly needs to be independent of any school. That's another area where someone needs to take the lead.

So, we've got a dialogue established with TIRF. Let's get that list of tires filled-out. What's a good time frame? One week? Let me know what your thoughts are. I'll keep you informed on anything else that comes out of TIRF.

Regards,
Edward

[carcar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Edward M. Kasprzak:
2-Hoosier 18x(6 & 7.5)-10 R25A
4-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A
2-Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A
5-Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A
2-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 R25A
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think for the third line it is supposed to be 20x6.5x13 R25A. From my experience the difference between 6 and 6.5 is minimal. I could be wrong though. If we choose only one between the two, then more data can be run for that tire. Maybe go in increments of 1", instead of 0.5" for the width?? Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

I also have a contact with Hoosier. I will see what I can do for discount/donation. Please don't let this stop anyone else from negotiating with them too.

Carly

[Dr. Bob Woods]

I too talked to General Dynamics (Calspan) at the Motorsports Engineering Conference. I think they are the correct ones to do the tests even though August is quite a delay. Denny, I know Edward and I do think he is the correct person to coordinate this with General Dynamics. He is working on his Ph.D. in tire modeling and he does have an association with Milliken Research and he is right there in town.

If Doug Milliken would agree, MRA chould collect the money and handle the finances. I suspect that most school's purchasing departments want to deal with a known company either with credit cards or P.O.'s, so we need to keep that in mind.

I would suggest that we all contribute enough to cover a few tests on the more popular tires. Then as other schools want to buy in, we can use their money to do more testing and then share that data with all of the schools that are in the cooperative at that point. As even more schools join, we can test more tires. We do not want to even consider giving refunds to schools; just test more tires.

UTA is definitely IN and I have a disproportionate interest in raw data as stated in my recent paper presented at the Motorsports Engineering Conference, so I really want this to happen. I am happy with $500 each.

I would suggest that we start with Hoosier 20x13-6 and -7, Hoosier 18x10-6 and -7.5 and Goodyear 20x13-6.5. That would be five of the most popular tires that are appropriate for FSAE. I would like to see if we could get this small sample done earlier than August (even if we use Smither's Scientific). I would then like to see more data on these five tires in terms of slip angle sweeps and camber sweeps with various loads at 5 temperatures and 5 pressures. I would actually like that to be the minimum test. Then as more teams/money becomes available, I would suggest that we test other tires (either other manufacturers or different tires).

This will be a long process. We would need to elect a coordinator and decide on what tires to test and the exact details the test. We need to have the coordinator to obtain a consensus from all of the participating teams on these tests. We need to have one person talk to the tire companies as I suspect that they will be happy to donate tires for this test.

There is a growing interest in tires and tire data. This will be a significant undertaking for more than FSAE. Let's do it.

-Dr. Bob Woods
UTA Faculty Advisor

[jonno]

Guys,

I've been following this thread for a while now and it sounds like a fantastic idea, I'd have liked to commit Brunel from the start but our budget is really tight this year, so I can't say we're in at the moment. We're considering running 10" wheels this year though, and the big one that has caught our attention are the LeCont 10's, cos they're only a 16" O.D. Would there be sufficient interest from other teams running 10" wheels to warrant the inclusion of these? 8.0/16.0-10 compound..... super soft is as good as i know at the moment!

[jonno]

sorry i pasted the wrong size, we're looking at 6.0/16.0-10

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

I'll run the idea of Milliken Research setting up and overseeing an account with Doug Milliken. Since he is also a Formula SAE design judge he's well-aware of what's happening in FSAE and is generally very supportive.

Dave at TIRF says that there's a chance the test could happen in June or July, but August is currently more available. The sooner we have something concrete (even if the concrete is still curing) the sooner we can lock-in a test date.

I agree that we should test the most popular tires. I also agree that we'd like to see more comprehensive tests--you really can never have too much tire data. Dave will have more input on what is possible once he knows how many types of tires there are. If the tires (wheels) share a common bolt patten & spacing we will be able to collect more data--less down time reconfiguring the test machine.

I'll see if Dave can give a rough estimate of what can be accomplished given a few of the most popular tires and a dollar amount.

Edward

[Denny Trimble]

Dr. Woods,
Thanks for chiming in, I agree with your selection of the 5 most popular tires.

Edward,
Let me know what you hear from MRA, if we get a "yes" from them on handling the money, I can send the information out to the teams. I still haven't contacted any teams outside the forum yet, but I'll do it by the end of the week either way.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Denny,

I'll let you know--I'll ask Doug Milliken today.

Edward

[Denny Trimble]

I've updated the interest spreadsheet, here:
http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/

We're up to 26 teams now!

-Denny

[Patrick W. Crane]

However the acount ends up being established, i would like it if all transactions where made viewable by all teams participating. This would include everything including deposites. that way everyone could be confident that their money went where it was supposed to go.

Also, i agree with any new money going to testing more tires.

[syoung]

I'm also in agreement with Dr. Woods' post - both the tyres he has picked out and the idea of using all future money to test slightly less well-known tyres.

Jonathan/all,
We'd also be interested in some data on the LeConts, and even Goodyear's 10" tyre (as used by someone - RMIT? - at FS04). I believe those are the only alternatives to Hoosier on 10", certainly in terms of European availability. They'd have to be in the second or third batch of tyres though; the main ones ought to take priority.

[BryanH]

Please forgive my ignorance but anyone who races/tests on open compound tyres will tell you that they simply don't work on a green track. They need a fully rubbered track to operate the way the tyre engineers intended. How can testing on 80grit produce accurate data unless you guys are planning to cover silverdome in sandpaper?
Commonsense would point to control tyres, a lot of time and money could be better directed.

[Nick McNaughton]

I think this is a great idea - but I'd like to see the 8" R065 Goodyear on Dr Bob's "starting five" list, and make it the "starting six" list.

[Denny Trimble]

Halfast,

Do high-budget racing teams have better tire data than we can get from TIRF? Maybe in F1...

Will the sandpaper belt predict exactly what the tires will do in every different kind of parking lot? No.

Will back-to-back testing highlight and quantify the differences between tire brands, constructions, and sizes? Yes.

Will a wealth of tire data allow us to complete vehicle dynamics calculations and simulations, and to make more informed design decisions? Yes, I think so.

Control tires are for budget racing, where it's all about driving. FSAE is about more than that. Without this testing, it would be up to individual teams to do back-to-back testing of tires on their cars. We've done this, and just comparing two constructions is expensive and time-consuming for a single team.

Nick,
I think a Goodyear 20x8-13 and a Hoosier 20x7.5-13 would be good to see in the first batch, but we'll have to see how the finances pan out.

[BrianD]

I also think a Goodyear 20x8-13 and a Hoosier 20x7.5-13 would be nice to see, since they are what we run. More schools = More money.. Did you contact SAE about getting a mass email sent out yet Denny?

[Denny Trimble]

I just sent an email to the FSAE, FSAE-A, and F-Student contacts from their websites.

*edit* found contact info for Steve Daum, and forwarded the message to him as well.

[Big D]

wow, what is this, only a week or 2 old, and 5 pages already http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I would like to add University of Saskatchewan (pending team approval) to the list started by Cement Legs for poor teams who are still interested if the cost drops:

Interested but Broke:

1. University of New Brunswick
-Hoosier 20x7.0-13 R25A
-Hoosier 20x7.5-13 R25A
-Goodyear 20x6.5-13 R065
-Goodyear 20x8.0-13 R065
2. University of Saskatchewan
- running Goodyear 20x6.5-13 R065, but interested in all

Also, can you throw some ice spikes into the test for us Canadian teams? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> i dunno cement,

i have a feeling that this is going to highlight 'the best tire for comp' and i have a feeling its going to do a bunch of different things to fsae. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't that be sweet if this testing could send Goodyear and Hoosier into a big pissing contest? Let's start an F1 style tire war!

[Patrick W. Crane]

I've always wanted to take our car ice racing, but i keep getting shot down by the team. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Denny - If saskatchewan and New Brunswick are in we are almost up to 30 teams, the price must be coming down by now. As is sounds like we are getting a discount on the testing, could you post a new estimate on cost for 5 tire types?

I think that maybe if people see how cheap it is getting, they would be more likely to join in.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

I'll be talking with Dave at TIRF once again early next week. I'll get more details about what tests we can do on 5 sets of tires and the costs involved. Cost for teams is always an issue, so the number of schools already expressing interest will help reduce the per team cost.

I spoke with Doug Milliken about setting up an independent account for this project's funds. He's interested, and is checking with his accountant. He also said that he'd be willing to maintain a list of transacions on the web so that the account is transparent to all.

Edward

[Schumi_Jr]

I second Dr. Woods suggestion to test the most common tires ASAP- even if we test somewhere other than TIRF.

Another test that would be interesting would be tire damping and spring rates at speeds. Dave from TIRF told one of our guys that this wasn't possible on their rigs... Does anyone know about this type of testing?

[BryanH]

Denny, I was hoping for an intelligent answer from a GY or Hoosier techie, still hoping.

It's conventional to get the tyre company/ies to design and test the tyre to suit the car or the race series. I have never heard of it done the other way around when it involves a formulae as large as fsae.
It would be very interesting to chat to the tyre designer re what geometry/ loading he has designed for. Is it possible that GY/Hoosier have had a quiet chat between themselves as to supplied tyre specs and have no interest in getting into a tyre war?
fsae operating conditions are unique in that open compound tyres are used on "green" tracks which tends to equalize performance btwn compounds/constructions. Hillclimbing is maybe another category with the same conditions.

I would have to agree that TIRF data could be good for a little spin doctoring in the design tent.

[dartmouth01]

Dartmouth is definitely in for $500 and less, above that we'd have to do some more discussion. And the sooner, the better of course. Our number one priority are the Goodyear 13x6.5's, but we would love to compare with other popular models mentioned by others already.

[Jarrod]

Monash are definitely interested

[Agent4573]

Whats the current interest list and approx price for the testing up to right now?

[IsheeM]

I am in discussions with my team/advisor to get this approved. We would be interested in the previoulsy mentioned Goodyears and Hoosiers on 13" wheels.

Is the data currently provided by Goodyear from an old compound? Has anyone asked Goodyear or Hoosier for new data reguarding their tires?

I am looking for points to use in my discussions with the team, so feel free to provide some more information i may use in my argument.

Thanks,

[RichE]

Having watched this thread for some time I am pleased to add Cardiff Racing to the list of teams interested in tyre testing.

We ran Hoosier tyres (20.0x6.0-13 R25A)on our first car but are swithching to Goodyear (20.0x6.5-13)for our second car.

Rich

[Ashley Denmead]

Deakin is interested for sure!

[Eddie Martin]

This is a great idea, i'll try and convince the uow boys to get in on the action.

I know some of the tyre manufacturers test their competitor's tyres back to back with their own and the results can be interesting.
We have tested all the 13's on the starting six list and some are quite similar, some not. I think one or two teams will get a big surprise when they see the results.http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The data may not show how these tyres act over a full enduro and how they react in different temperatures this can really effect the lap times over 22km.

[Denny Trimble]

I've updated the interest list again based on emails and requests here. I haven't added teams yet unless they've specifically said "we're in", and I'm starting a list of teams who can't make the $500 price range.

Again, I'd like to keep it in that price range for each team so we have the opportunity to do more thorough testing and to test a wider range of tires.

Michael,
The goodyear data is up-to-date, but the graphs stop before peak lateral force, which is fairly important for us. Also, I think the main benefit of this testing is to compare the goodyears to others in a known environment.

I haven't asked Goodyear or Hoosier for newer/better data, perhaps somebody would like to do that?

edit: Here's a link to the tire testing interest sheet: http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/

-Denny

[rjwoods77]

Hey Denny,

Hope your build is going good. I looked at your excel sheet. I now it is broad and they wont all be done but we are interested in all tires that are 18" OD and smaller. GY and Hoosier wet and dry tires, leconts, and any other offbrand worth looking at. Again I know we wont get to those but I wanted to make sure the list reflected what we were interested in.

One of my concerns. We signed up assuming that we could get one of our tires done in the first round. Everyone one is obviously. But it if turns out that only 20's are going to be tested then its not worth our money to pitch in for a tire we arent using. We want to contribute money to this endevour overall but for us, and any other team not using the mainstay 20's, need to know that our money is going to net tire data we need. Something that needs to be considered. We will still do any legwork and be any help we can be even if we dont end up pitching in.

[Denny Trimble]

I'm pretty sure the Hoosier 18x10's are on the short list. And, once everybody commits and we know what our finances are, and the cost for testing each type of tire (anyone want to ask for tires for testing?), we can make the final list.

[rjwoods77]

Cool. Just wanted to let you know.

[rdleng04]

You can count the University of Cincinnati in. We have run goodyears in the past until last year, which we ran avons. 20x6.2x13.

[Ché]

It is really nice to such strong support for this and the cooperation by the teams as well as the outside firms. However, I feel the "starting five" selection is too few tires. Here at WWU we have been running 10" tires and are interested in this project to find out which 10" will perform the best, simply testing Hoosier tires in the 10" size isn't that helpful to us because we wouldn't be able to compare them to the other brands. I understand that the 13" size is what most teams run, and we have considered switching to that size (and would reconsider it if tire testing highlighted a 13" as the leading performer). But at this point we feel that 10" is the way to go for us. I feel that instead of limiting the tires to 5 or 6, we should be testing the most common sizes (which I feel should be 10" and 13" but feel free to add more if there is some other obscure size that would be competive and legal) and test from each tire manufacturer. This would obviously cost more than the current test but I feel that at the current rumor of 500USD per team and the number of teams interested this would be possible. I also think that there should only be one planned run and everything should be paid for upfront. Having a second run planned seems like it would be too easy for it not to happen and then all the teams expecting "their" size to be run would be left without data, while the rest of the teams had what they needed. This is all just my thoughts and I recognize that as a team trying to run 10"s we are in the minority, but I feel that the 10"s are at a similar performance level as the 13"s, and deserve a fair chance in the test.

Goodyear and Hoosier are brands that need to be tested, and I feel that Avon (a tire that a few teams already run, http://www.avonracing.com/) would be nice to see also [although their 8.5/16.0-10 most likely won't work for a Formula SAE car because it is the tire used on the front of the sixwheeled Tyrell F1 car and the compound would be too hard]. The LeCont website (http://www.leconttyres.com/) mentions a "super soft" compound in 10" and 13" that are in sizes we could run. As far as the Michelin, Dunlop, Silverstone and Continental tires I am unaware of what is offered that by these manufacturers that would be appropriate to test. Does anyone have more information about these in the FSAE sizes?

[Jarrod]

I think the Avon xx/20-13 A45 compound would be worth testing, a number of australian teams and quite a few UK teams run them, they look like a pretty good tire from what i have seen, they are definitely soft. There are a few widths available, maybe Avon teams could supply more information on what is out there. We have run dunlop in the past 170/500-13 and 220/500-13 in D40 compound, but they are wet compound designed for clubmans, hillclimbs, and are a bit harder than Hoosier Avon, etc, it needs a coarse surface and a warm day to get them working, Detroit would be far too cold, they didn't come up at Bruntingthorpe or Tailem Bend.

[D J Yates]

Meant to reply to this thread ages ago.

We ran Avon 6.2/20.0-13.0 A45 compound on our last car and will being doing the same this year. Using the same 6" rims too. A nice man from Cooper Avon (Pete Morgan i think) sent me some useful data. Same size tyre but slightly harder (A41) compound.

Cornering force and aligning torque vs normal load for slip angles +- 7 degrees at a range of cambers of 0,1 and 2 degrees and pressures of 14 and 16 psi. Loads tested were 60,90,120 Kg. Also, enough to caculate vertical tyre stiffness.

Although the loads are comparable those of a FSAE car i'd like more than three loads to build a better model. Also, i could really use some data on slip ratios.

It's the same standard of data that is supplied freely by Avon to the UK Formula Ford teams, so i guess it should be relyable. However, i've not been doing this long and so i don't know what quality tyre data would look like. If anyone is interested in giving an educated opinion or would just like to get their hands on the Avon data, i'll happily send a copy to them.

[Mi_Ko]

Sounds interesting,... I can't tell you if we're in, since our budget is very tight. (Plus there is another problem for us. We can't just walk to our tyre importeur and buy slick tyres we want to have. We must take what we get,...and if we get Kumho, Dunlop or Sava,... then this test is uselees for us,...) We'll better spent this 500$ on an extra set of tyres for testing,... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyway,.. the Idea is very interesting. But at this time I have to say: Maybe later,... sorry! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Kelsey]

Denny,

Hope things are going well with the team. It's great to see some initiative taken to get proper test data from our competition tires. You can add the University of Calgary to your list; we're in for $500 US...less than that would be even better! Toss us in the 20's group...GY and Hoosier mainly. We are interested in the data for 18's (GY and Hoosier) as well to see how close we are on our current setup.

Cheers.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

After talking with his accountant, Doug Milliken has agreed to set-up a bank account to manage the finances for this tire test. All transactions will be transparent, posted on a website. The account will be set-up after the holidays.

I hope to have more to report from Dave at TIRF soon.

Happy Holidays,
Edward

[Schulberg J]

Any more information or updates on this project?

Cal Poly San Luis Obispo would like to be added to the list as long as 18x6.5-10 and 18x7.5-10 GY and Hoosier tires are tested. It would also be nice to get longitudinal data as well. Also what specifically is planned for the test?
What:
- camber angles
- tire pressures
- how large of a slip angle sweep
- normal loads

thanks

Jason Schulberg
Cal Poly SLO Team Leader

[Marc Berryman]

Can you add Cardiff University to the list of interested universities. Would also appreciate if someone supplies me with a bit more detail on how this will work, especially how we actually pay and receive the data and what will be included in the test data.

Thanks, Marc.

[fsae racer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SLOtrac:
Any more information or updates on this project?

Cal Poly San Luis Obispo would like to be added to the list as long as 18x6.5-10 and 18x7.5-10 GY and Hoosier tires are tested. It would also be nice to get longitudinal data as well. Also what specifically is planned for the test?
What:
- camber angles
- tire pressures
- how large of a slip angle sweep
- normal loads

thanks

Jason Schulberg
Cal Poly SLO Team Leader <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jason, do you guys here many cracks about a racing team named slo? when i first saw that, i was crackin up.

[Schulberg J]

Nick,

We of course get the occasional slo joke, that is of course till they see our car moving...

If I remember right aren't the Gator's the guys who were selling FSAE thongs for the ladies? That what was great. How many of those things you guys sell?

Jason Schulberg
Cal Poly SLO Team Leader

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

Just thought I'd bring you up to date on how things are progressing.

Doug Milliken has set up an account and drafted a webpage to manage the tire tests. For accounting purposes and dealing with TIRF we've named ourselves the "FSAE Tire Test Consortium"--almost certainly destined to be referred to as the TTC.

The webpage and account will be formally launched in the next 10 days or so. At that time we will switch from "taking pledges of support" to "signing-up schools". Denny has been doing a nice job keeping track of who's interested and trying to get the word out to more schools.

Dr. Bob Woods is working on getting tires donated from Hoosier and Goodyear. Sounds like Hoosier's on board and Goodyear may be close. This is a big contribution!

As a first pass we're looking at testing the tires below (subject to change) which have been the most popular requested (sorry, can't please everyone, but the hope is to test more tires in the future):

Hoosier 20x13-6
Hoosier 20x13-7
Hoosier 18x10-6
Hoosier 18x10-7.5
Goodyear 20x13-6.5

I've been going back and forth with TIRF. The tire tests envisioned are slip angle sweeps at 4 loads, 3 inclination angles and 3 pressures. Slip ratio sweeps would be done at 4 loads, 2 inclination angles and 2 pressures. We'll concentrate on one speed, but may do some runs at a second or third speed. Some combined slip angle/slip ratio testing may be added if we have tires and time left over. The test schedule will be adjusted from the initial targets during the tests (this is normal) as the wear rates and data quality are assessed. We may be able to collect even more data. We project wearing-out 5 tires of each construction during this testing.

The one big question left to be answered is where the wheels will come from. As for available bolt patterns, Dave at TIRF says "We have a 4 bolt on 4" BC. Or a 5 bolt on a 4.5" BC.". If we can match either of these we avoid having to have a new one made.

I hope to report on the scheduling of the test at TIRF in the next two weeks. Expect a date somewhere between late-July and early-September.

Best regards,
Edward

[Patrick W. Crane]

Once Schools start signing up, where are Checks/money orders/other forms of payment going to be directed? Is Doug Milliken going to be the one collecting? or is there a way we can direct deposit?

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Checks will be made out "FSAE Tire Test Consortium" and sent to same "c/o Doug Milliken". All the details will be posted on the webpage soon. I'll let you know the address as soon as it's up.

As discussed, all transactions will be transparent to all via a spreadsheet on the web.

Edward

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Oh, to answer the rest of your question: Doug Milliken has just about finished setting-up a way for electronic transfer of funds. The details on that will be posted, too, when they're finalized.

[IsheeM]

Are there any plans to keep track of the temperatures in each of the tires during the testing?

[Ben Beacock]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The one big question left to be answered is where the wheels will come from. As for available bolt patterns, Dave at TIRF says "We have a 4 bolt on 4" BC. Or a 5 bolt on a 4.5" BC.". If we can match either of these we avoid having to have a new one made.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have 4 Arrow steel wheels, 4x4"BC 13"x6
and we have no use for them

[rjwoods77]

What is the stud hole size? I will ask edward to ask the people at tirf what stud size they have or prefer?

[Denny Trimble]

Everybody,
I've updated the interest sheet again, sorry for the delay. Let me know if I should make any corrections:
Click Here (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting)

[jack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> quote:
The one big question left to be answered is where the wheels will come from. As for available bolt patterns, Dave at TIRF says "We have a 4 bolt on 4" BC. Or a 5 bolt on a 4.5" BC.". If we can match either of these we avoid having to have a new one made.


We have 4 Arrow steel wheels, 4x4"BC 13"x6
and we have no use for them

Ben Beacock
Co-Manager
2005 Gryphon Racing - University of Guelph <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we have some 10x6 (4x4 bolts)that we dont use for anything, but they are on the flexy side

[Icke]

Moin, moin!

I'm the suspension-guy from the student-racing team from Stralsund, Germany and I'm interested. But I'll like to have more information about the tests. Loads, tire pressures, Hoosier 20x6-13, 20x6.5-13 and 20x7-13 on which rim, slip angles, slip ratio, camber, pneumatic trail, etc.

[dfrVD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
Everybody,
I've updated the interest sheet again, sorry for the delay. Let me know if I should make any corrections:
http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Denny, thanks for doing all this, pretty exciting stuff for the ole Vehicle Dynamics team. Just to update your posted list of schools however, Dartmouth is interested in both Goodyear and Hoosier 20x6.5-13 sizes. Thanks
VD

[Ashley Denmead]

Hi Denny,

just checked your interest sheet, noticed Deakin didnt have a prefered tyre on there. We're running Avon 13x20x7.2 with the a45 compound.

whats the latest with the testing? would be great to have some data soon. what about payment?

cheers

ash

[Denny Trimble]

I've updated the interest sheet. We should be ready to release more information on the testing soon, including a formal way for teams to vote for tires as they submit payment.

[Marc Berryman]

Here are the preferred tires for Cardiff Racing to update the interest sheet.

Hoosier 20x13-6 R25A
Goodyear 20x13-6.5 R065
Goodyear 20x13-8.0 R065
Avon.

Can you remind me of details of what tests, etc. and the cost as well as method of payment so I can advise my project management team. Cheers, Marc.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

We're making final revisions to a website to formally sign-up for the tests. I hope to post it by the end of the week.

In short, the cost is $500. We're looking to test 5 different tires in the first round, collecting lateral and longitudinal force data at a range of loads, slip angles, camber angles, slip ratios and pressures. Tire spring rate and tread temperatures will also be measured.

Edward

[rjwoods77]

TIRF is cool.

[Denny Trimble]

Jack,
Can you find out what the backspacing and center bore diameter is on those 10x6 wheels you offered? Do they come with CNC'd "stiffeners"? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also, everybody should be getting their paypal accounts warmed-up!

[jack]

there is zero backspacing. yes they have stiffeners. they are blue labels, however, and they dont have brake rotors in them so they may be a little flexy. if they get used, we need them back too http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[fade]

count University of Oklahoma in
tire list:
Hoosier 20x6-13 R25A
GoodYear D1385, R065 - 20.0x6.5-13

[rjwoods77]

Just in case any of you were interested in the doped out machine that will be testing our tires on.

www.tireresearch.com (http://www.tireresearch.com)

[Nick McNaughton]

UWA's absolutely in. Hoosier 6.5 and 7.5 13's, and the Goodyear 6.5 and 8.0 13's are at the top of our wishlist.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

Just a note to bring you up to date. We've got time scheduled on the TIRF machine for the week of 6/20. Dr. Bob Woods, Denny Trimble and I have been working hard on the organization of these tests. We will announce the official registration procedure (along with test details) sometime this week. Sorry for the delay, but we're taking the time to get things set-up properly before proceeding.

Edward

[Chris Clarke]

Denny,

The compound for our tire is wrong, I said it was R093 when in fact it is R065. So our tires should be:

UBC
Goodyear 20x6.5-13 R065

[Denny Trimble]

Just to bump this thread back up to the top and attract some more attention:

We're very close to opening registration for the TTC, I'll start a new thread when that happens, with links to all the information.

Also, we'll try to contact teams outside of the forum, though we've had limited success with that. So, maybe we can get some help from all of you by spreading the word to your fellow teams.

By the way, we must demand that only single teams register, and that no groups of teams "go in together". This is to make sure we raise enough money, and to make the financial contributions equal from all teams. Also, distribution of the data will be prohibited, except in scholarly publications and with proper citation. Again, the official wording on these issues will appear on the TTC website once it's up.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

Denny has started a new thread called "Tire Testing Consortium". Registration is now open. For all of the teams that expressed interest, check-out the new thread which announces the registration website. Sign-up by April 30th if you want a say in what tire constructions we're going to test.

See you on the new thread.
Edward

[Hyder]

Hi everbody i am new to this forum, joined recently.
Can anyone help me, I need to know what are the forces which will develop in the machine frame and their formulas.

I am designing a static tyre testing machine which should capable of measuring lateral, longitudinal,vertical and cornoring stiffness, can any one help me to comeplete my project.

waiting for the response.

[JR]

Sure... just send me the dimensions. Oh.. and while I'm at it I can take your final exams and walk for your diploma too. Dude... go to class!