Engine Supplier

[Will M]

I came across this company today.
http://www.ushighland.com/engines/
Looks like a potentially good source for FSAE size engines made in the US.

-William

[Racer-X]

I don't see anything there that can't be found elsewhere with plenty of spare parts. What they need to do is make a 500-600cc twin that we can use then they would have a market.

[Will M]

True, a smaller twin would be very nice.
Their singles might not offer more performance, but I would prefer a US based supplier with factory support Vs. used engines and aftermarket parts.
Just my two cents.

On the downside I get the feeling they won’t be cheap. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

-William

[Racer-X]

The KTM 525 singles are pretty common, they're not new though, which I actually see as a plus.

I can't imagine these being all that affordable or having cheap ones to blow in the teething phase.

If there was a 500-600cc twin that didn't have the issues of the Aprilia I'd be all over that.

[AxelRipper]

I like it as well for the US made bit... but it does seem a little tall, and I doubt anything about it will be as cheap as the mass produced ones you can get from the big makes.

[Owen Thomas]

Looks pretty cool, but the amount of "business talk" splattered all over those pages combined with no technical information makes me wary.

On another note, what's the deal with all the buzz for v-twins? I recognize the stone cold advantages the aprillia has on paper, but it just seems like a parallel twin would be so much lighter. Plus easier exhaust routing and packaging in general.

What am I missing that gets everyones injectors flowing about v-twins?

[Racer-X]

I like the idea of the parallel twin too, I just haven't ever seen a good one. The EX500 was heavy and the snowmobile motors need a CVT/custom transmission. The Aprilia and this one already exist they just need to be better.

[Will M]

Well as far as parallel twins go I think the new Ninja 300 engine could be a real option.

http://www.gizmag.com/kawasaki-ninja-300/24014/

-William

[Dewi Griffiths]

@Owen,

V twin's in general get my injectors squirting for many reasons. The noise for one, and my general love for fixing things. And I can vouch for the fact most of your life will be spent fixing Aprilia's. But I love them for it. Also it makes a biblical noise...did I mention that?

[Drew Price]

Originally posted by Racer-X:
The KTM 525 singles are pretty common, they're not new though, which I actually see as a plus.

I can't imagine these being all that affordable or having cheap ones to blow in the teething phase.

If there was a 500-600cc twin that didn't have the issues of the Aprilia I'd be all over that.



As a KTM owner, there is nothing cheap about sourcing parts or repairing the KTM engines either.

Not quite on the scale of Duc/Ape/BMW, but close.

[Racer-X]

Originally posted by Drew Price:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Racer-X:
The KTM 525 singles are pretty common, they're not new though, which I actually see as a plus.

I can't imagine these being all that affordable or having cheap ones to blow in the teething phase.

If there was a 500-600cc twin that didn't have the issues of the Aprilia I'd be all over that.



As a KTM owner, there is nothing cheap about sourcing parts or repairing the KTM engines either.

Not quite on the scale of Duc/Ape/BMW, but close. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They aren't horrible, not like limited production motor. Its relative.

[Owen Thomas]

Haha, fair enough Dewi. I guess I'm just confused as to why v-twins were ever made in the first place, since it would be so hard to fit into anything. Maybe a relic from the air-cooled days?

That 300R looks really nice. Tough to find a wrecked small displacement bike though, so it's gonna be pricey. Maybe next they'll re do the EX500 with fuel injection and all those other fancy bits. Maybe they'll make it direct injected with a built in low profile oil pan and 4 speed sequential transmission. Now I'm not trying to stray this topic to "what is your ideal FSAE engine", but that would probably make me foul my plugs, if you know what I mean.

[Will M]

Now I'm not trying to stray this topic to "what is your ideal FSAE engine" ...

Agreed.
I would very much like to see this thread stick to available or soon to be available engines that are not common to FSAE but could be a good fit.

As for the price.
The 300R will replace the 250R (at least in the US) and Ebay had a bunch of 250R engines for $500 - $750 the last time I checked.
So I would bet in a few years the 300R engines should be about the same price.

-William

[Z]

Originally posted by Owen Thomas:
... what's the deal with all the buzz for v-twins?
... it just seems like a parallel twin would be so much lighter. Plus easier exhaust routing and packaging in general.

What am I missing that gets everyones injectors flowing about v-twins?
Owen,

1. V-twins are narrower than parallel-twins, which is useful on bikes.

2a. 90 degree V-twins have perfect primary balance, and 1.4 x single-cylinder secondary unbalance.
2b. 360 degree parallel-twins have twice the primary and secondary unbalance of each single cylinder (so nowadays usually have a balance shaft for the primary "shake").
2c. 180 degree parallel-twins have no primary shake, 2 x single-cyl secondary shake, and primary couple unbalance.

3. V-twins have a single throw crankshaft with 2 x main journals, which is lighter (and shorter/stiffer) than the parallel's two throw crank with 3 x mains. But the V requires an extra drive for the 2 x cams/heads, a small amount of extra cooling-jacket wall, but less crankcase/sump wall. All up, very close, but V possibly lighter (cranks are heavy).

4. 360 parallel twins have smoother power delivery (360-360), than 180 parallels (180-540), or Vs (270-450 for 90deg V).

Z

[rjwoods77]

Originally posted by Dewi Griffiths:
@Owen,

V twin's in general get my injectors squirting for many reasons. The noise for one, and my general love for fixing things. And I can vouch for the fact most of your life will be spent fixing Aprilia's. But I love them for it. Also it makes a biblical noise...did I mention that?

Dewi: I agree on the noise...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqztOLYcwek

Owen: They are from motorcycles and they package very nicely in those and FSAE cars. And btw air cooled relics can get out of their own way just fine. Look up Porsche 917 sometime and also check out Hunter-Reay having some fun with a variation of the motor we used...

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com...r-reay-fire-and-ice/ (http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/hunter-reay-fire-and-ice/)

http://home.comcast.net/~wandatin/MOV00465.MPG (http://home.comcast.net/%7Ewandatin/MOV00465.MPG)

[Drew Price]

Originally posted by Racer-X:
They aren't horrible, not like limited production motor. Its relative.



That's true, I was actually thinking that sentence as "...Compared to common, mass produced Japanese engines."

[Owen Thomas]

Thank you Z, clearly what I am missing is a better understanding of crank balance. I hadn't thought about relative length of the crank either, that would certainly save lots of weight.

I did not mean to imply that everything air cooled is a "relic", since (as Rob Woods shows) there are some super badass applications. I was more questioning if it was just one of those things that carries over from previous generations and people keep doing since it has been developed so much that way, and now has other benefits.

[/threadjack]

Along the same lines of the ninja 300, the new cbr250R would be an interesting choice. Lots of fancy new gadgets and tech improvements for the new lineup, essentially adding 600cc and liter engine features onto a smaller bike. Personally, I think NA 350cc or less simply does not produce competitive power, but it could certainly work for a super lightweight concept. It will be interesting to see what the major makes do in the future, since they have started this high-tech small engine trend.

[Will M]

Originally posted by Owen Thomas:

Along the same lines of the ninja 300, the new cbr250R would be an interesting choice.

I think a few teams have used 250cc engines in the past.
Looks like UTA used a turbo 250cc in 2010 and 2011.
http://fsae.uta.edu/about.htm

I would love to see one in a light weight/low drag concept!

-William

[AxelRipper]

I'd be curious of what the weight of the new Ninja motors are. Looking at the old Ninja 250's a bit ago I remember seeing that they were near their power limit, relatively heavy, and not all that reliable in an application like FSAE.

[Will M]

@AxelRipper

In this article it says “the new 300 uses a stroked version of the current 250 engine“.

http://www.nashvilleriders.com...pe-coming-to-the-usa (http://www.nashvilleriders.com/index.php/the-news/industry/1664-ninja-300-unveiled-in-europe-coming-to-the-usa)

So the weight should be about the same (though I can’t vouch for the veracity of the article).

-William

[Owen Thomas]

Changing phase a little bit, there was one engine at Lincoln this year that caught my attention. I believe it was McGill using a Rotax 600 (link (http://www.brp-powertrain.com/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-227/365_read-337/)), and I looked it up when we got home. It is quite the impressive little package, but no drivetrain to speak of, and stock power seems a bit low for a non restricted 600cc. Regardless, it seems like a pretty good concept, plus it sounded wicked.

I don't know what the pricing or reliability is like, but Rotax and Bombardier seem to have a thing going on, and I suspect that McGill and Bombardier hq both being in Montreal had something to do with it.

[Mbirt]

Owen,

I am far, far too intimate with the 600 ACE and can confirm that no FSAE team has used it--except for our FSAE team that competed and placed second at the 2012 SAE Clean Snowmobile Challenge. Haha. I can also guarantee it would not sound wicked, but rather like a Genesis 80fi limited to only 7500 rpm. The engine alone weighs almost 90 lb and makes just over 60hp on E85. It does love to run lean and has a cavernous throttled 4.6l intake plenum--just throw a restrictor between the TB and plenum.

McGill was running the BRP Rotax 4-TEC 450 found here: http://www.brp-powertrain.com/...3/384_read-375/450cc (http://www.brp-powertrain.com/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-243/384_read-375/450cc)

It's from the Can-Am DS450 ATV and is pretty typical for the competitive 450cc class. I haven't heard anything bad about it.

[Owen Thomas]

I stand corrected. All I knew was that it was a Rotax, and sounded unlike a single. It seems like you gained a little bit of contempt for the 600, but still good work on a "first-year" 2nd place.

You guys have done some interesting stuff down there at Kettering, and since this seems like a fitting place to ask... Is it safe to say the folks over at Mahle have fully abandoned the FSAE engine project?

[MCoach]

The engineers at Mahle don't even want to hear about that motor anymore. They just want all of them to go away.
The current position on engines at Mahle seems to be that they do not make engines, but are happy to make any part that can possibly be fitted inside or outside of one.

[AxelRipper]

Originally posted by Owen Thomas:
I stand corrected. All I knew was that it was a Rotax, and sounded unlike a single. It seems like you gained a little bit of contempt for the 600, but still good work on a "first-year" 2nd place.

You guys have done some interesting stuff down there at Kettering, and since this seems like a fitting place to ask... Is it safe to say the folks over at Mahle have fully abandoned the FSAE engine project?

Yeah, they abandoned that shortly after our car (failed to) run. At least in America, as I believe Esslingen ran with it for another year or 2. That little gem is still together as our show car though. Hasn't run since 2007. Was a nice package, but it was heavy with the transaxle setup. Our 2007 car couldn't have been built much simpler, had lots of titanium, and still weighed 470 pounds IIRC.

The ACE is actually a very good engine, but I'm not sure it would be suited for FSAE due to the power/weight ratio when compared to a single, especially when you throw in the CVT. It is also a very tall motor, but with the dry sump tank hung off the back of the motor it could likely be laid back quite a ways. We could probably get a picture with it next to a 450 for reference if someone wanted to see it. It is quite the torque monster though. Would be cool to see someone use it, but it won't be us right now http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

[Jon Burford]

Parallel twins make a particularly horrible noise, ours makes a lot of it too.

[mech5496]

Horrible?! I wouldn't say so... Although kinda funny because of the CVT! Might wanna take a look on grassroot/ice racing motorcycles (i.e. Jawa)+CVT, should make an interesting package for FSAE, plus I love their simplicity...

[Mbirt]

Owen, any contempt I hold toward the motor is my fault, not the engine's. It's good at what it's meant to do--sip fuel to the tune of 30 mpg in a snowmobile.

Here's an audio comparison between the two motors. The one bred from the YZ250f and the R1 obviously sounds more exotic than the max-efficiency, appliance-like unit.

Phazer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...GTGhY&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRN5iBGTGhY&feature=relmfu)
600 ACE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...hXj_A&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuDLldhXj_A&feature=relmfu)

If a team wants to use a CVT and win fuel efficiency, I believe it would be the way to go. And 40 ft*lb to the crank achieved at 3500 rpm is pretty impressive. I would like to see someone it a try. It might be right for a team that has said no to the single.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/14404_383993931679143_698899051_n.png

The reality is that, even with the addition of a restrictor, any of the readily-available 450-class singles can make more crank power using OEM parts. I've spent approximately equal development time with the WR450f for FSAE and the 600 ACE for CSC and feel that each powertrain suits its application well for our teams.

Jon, I think the Swansea car sounds fantastic. Have you had the car on a chassis dyno? Would you be willing to share any information giving us an idea of the driveline losses involving a belt CVT in the FSAE application?

[Spinto]

I have a few brand new SXV motors for sale and have a few here are clients...thanks btw.

There are a number of successful supermotard teams worldwide using the SXV.

What i don't understand is why are some teams having problems and others aren't??

These motors make power and are light, for what they are.

[MCoach]

Originally posted by Spinto:
I have a few brand new SXV motors for sale and have a few here are clients...thanks btw.
There are a number of successful supermotard teams worldwide using the SXV.
What i don't understand is why are some teams having problems and others aren't??
These motors make power and are light, for what they are.



For what they are, they are stripped down by college students and custom ECU controls are applied in a four wheeled vehicle with questionable experience on all sides.

I don't see the problem here.

[Lorenzo Pessa]

Originally posted by Spinto:
There are a number of successful supermotard teams worldwide using the SXV.

What i don't understand is why are some teams having problems and others aren't??

These motors make power and are light, for what they are.

Some teams take the engine out the crate, unmount it entirely, then mount it again correctly (with some fixes).
My team were able to use that engines only in that way.