E85 Fuel pump

[Mat]

Hi all,
We will use for the first time E85 this year and i am looking for the fuel system, and particularly for a fuel pump.
It is quite difficult to find a fuel pump ethanol compatible with high pressure and low flow rate... Which pump are you using for E85 in your teams??
Thank you!
Mathieu

[BeaverGuy]

It really isn't all that difficult to find an E85 Fuel pump. Do an internet search for E85 compatible vehicles. Here is a website with a list of vehicles Flexible Fuel Vehicles (http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/flexfuelvehicles.php). I did this a couple years ago and it only took maybe 4 hours to get the list and partnumbers.

[bigwig]

All fuel pumps work with E85. Don't buy into the hype that you need special stuff with E85. Just build an E85 fuel system the same way you would a gasoline engine except make sure it can flow about 1.5x the fuel.

[Wesley]

I don't know if thats completely true. E85 is pretty corrosive compared to gasoline. I'm pretty sure it's particularly bad for rubber.

All pumps should work, most of them don't have rubber seals, but you have to be careful what you build the fuel system out of.

[John Grego]

E85 is more corrosive than gasoline but it still takes it a while to corrode anything. We had no problems with our car last year.

[Mat]

Originally posted by john.grego:
E85 is more corrosive than gasoline but it still takes it a while to corrode anything. We had no problems with our car last year.

John Grego
Texas A&M

Hi John,
Did you run your car last year with classic injectors and pump, not especially design for E85?
Mathieu

[BryanH]

Wesley if you don't kmow then don't f@cking post. I'm totally over negative spin on E85

[Homemade WRX]

I know many guys running E85 in their Subaru's with no changes to the system, just using walbro 255's...I'm not buying a special pump or regulator. Just making sure the pump doesn't have rubber seals.

[John Grego]

yea we had regular stuff.

[Wesley]

Halfast, thanks for that intriguing and useful information you conveyed in your post.

[57JoeFoMoPar]

As mentioned, E85 is more corrisive than gasoline. It doesn't like rubber and I've heard that it doesn't do well with aluminum either. There are ways around this. Aluminum tanks can be sealed, or you can use a plastic cell. With as many flex fuel vehicles as there are out there, there should be no reason not to come up with E85 compatible injectors and pumps. Fords have offered FFVs for years, so injectors can be had over the counter inexpensively. Virtually any FFV automotive fuel pump will provide enough volume to satisfy even the thirstiest of SAE mills.

These guys are right that regular parts can be used with E85, but with E85 compatible parts readily available inexpensively, why take a chance?

[BeaverGuy]

It doesn't take long for E85 to cause fuel system problems. In the summer of '03 we had many problems. Most were related to haveing the car sit for extended periods. As a result our uncoated aluminum fuel tank developed many small holes. This was after the tank sat half full for about 2 months. However, before that happened our injectors became damaged due to corrosion. They hadn't sat as long but it was about a month. We also had a problem with a fuel pressure regulator. In '04 while on the dyno the FPR stopped working, we opened it up and the portion that had been clear anodized had started to corrode. The regulator was only about a month old and was identical to the model used on the '03 car which had performed without any problems.

For many teams having the car sit for month without running is quite normal. Doing this with an E85 car could be disatorous unless you purge the system with gasoline. The follwoing year once the engine was off the dyno that became stadard practice. After every time the car went out we would empty the fuel tank then put a small bit of gasoline in the tank and run the car until we were satisfied the E85 was out of the system. Under this protocol everything was fine except for the "alcohol compatible" coating we put in the fuel tank which flaked off around 6 months of age. We also had the same problem with a different brand of coating that was put on the replacement tank for the '03 car.

So I would say this, if you are going to use aluminum in the fuel system, annodize it. The other coatings available don't seem to stand up too well and make sure the annodizing isn't too thin or likely to be scratched. We only ever used RC injectors and they were fine if you didn't let the car sit for long periods. However, I doubt there is any difference between those that claim to be alcohol compatible and those that don't except for the o-rings that seal them to their bungs. I feel the same way about fuel pumps but it realy isn't that difficult to find a pump that is E85 compatible and the prices aren't that much different either. For o-rings, gaskets, and fuel lines absolutely use alcohol compatible pieces. It doesn't take long for incompatible rubbers to swell and become soft in the presence of ethanol

[John Grego]

i just know that we havent had problems with E85, maybe cause we have kept the car running or we just keep blowin head gaskets and had to remove the engine and all the E85 http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Homemade WRX]

Originally posted by John Gregohttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gifr we just keep blowin head gaskets and had to remove the engine and all the E85 http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
that could be one reason http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
still on the blown 450?

[John Grego]

yea we are, anytime you have an engine that makes 45 hp stock and you're runnin it close to 70 hp you're gonna have problems...good thing we have 3 other cars that seem to be bullet proof with the yzf600.

[afroney]

Just hope we don't have the E-85 disaster that we happened at FSAE 06 in Detroit. The fuel mix-up (100% instead of 85%) really messed up our car along with most of the other ethanol teams.

Anyways, research says that E-85 is highly corrosive to soft metals (i.e. aluminum) and natural rubber. However, FSAE teams only use their cars for limited time. Our team runs E-85 and coats our aluminum tank with a special cream and uses synthetic rubber for fuel seals.

[Erich Ohlde]

I thought it was determined that the fuel at detroit was in fact E85.

[afroney]

Disclaimer: I am not a chemistry person or even an engineer for that matter, so I'm just describing what happened to our team and the opinions of people more knowledgeable about the subject. These are just my observations based on our team's experience with ethanol (we are from Iowa, after all).


I was also confused by the announcements of test results, so I contacted another E-85 team's advisor, whom I won't name. Their engine had numerous problems at competition. Their advisor has quite a bit more experience in chemistry than I do, and he found problems with the methods in which they tested the fuel (he had obtained the actual fuel test results).

I remember our car stalling during the acceleration event. After the Acceleration event, and failed attempts to restart our car our engine team leader suspected bad fuel and drained the tank. His opinion was that the fuel was a 100% ethanol. We were allowed then to get our own E-85 from a local station. The engine immediately started after the new fuel and we never had another problem. However, many other E-85 teams could not get their engines started on the competition fuel or had destroyed their engines attempting to run them.

I shouldn't have been so quick to say 100% in my previous post, but I would like to say that there was a strong possibility that at least some of the E-85 at competition just wasn't the right stuff. I think many of the other E-85 teams may agree with me. We did end up with a very strong finish (at least our school's best finish) so I decided not to pursue this. Also, I believe SAE is a great group of people who hold the competition, and I don't want to complain about this any further. I just want people to know about the other side of the E-85 story.