Locost....

[RollingCamel]

I started working 2 weeks ago on a Locost project. And coincidentally, read Pat's thoughts about Locost builders and mistakes. I was going to use "Build your own sports car" as a guide and have noted the same issues regarding the lack of good engineering basics and the loads of not-to-do stuff going on.

I decided to use it as a guide line for internal spacing. However, I think that I'll go mid-engine to use a FWD engine to save money, weight and better dynamics. I want to keep the project as simple as possible, reliable and cheap. So I'll be using OEM parts as much as I can or manufacture it myself. I'm waiting my company's factory to be built where I'll be manufacturing my car.....hopefully.

My main goal is to design a fun car rather than a racer...I'd love to take it to the autocross though.

[acedeuce802]

The mid-engine idea is very interesting. Do you plan on following the Locost way and retain Lotus 7 body work? Keep us updated!

[Drew Price]

Nice. I approve of this message.

Photos as they come please!

[Jon Burford]

bike engined kit car is on the cards after FS is no longer in my life.
Looking forward to it!

Have Fun

[RollingCamel]

I'll take my time with this project, not succeeding in building a working FSAE car is quite nagging me.

Anyways, I started with a Locost build then iterated it. Was planning to use a M44B18/19 BMW E36 powertrain. I'm not going to use a bike engine because I want to be a road sportscar than a track car, so reverse and low speed smoothness is much appreciated.

Revising the book's build with some of the safety rules we have in FSAE and FIA, it does indeed needs some work. There still some decisions to make whether to have a windshield or just a small one and use helmets. Wither to have a complete roll cage and or a hard top or an open car. I'd like the latter but I do fear theft which rampant here. Ingress and egress must be easy too.

Now If I go mid-engine using a Honda B16A/C, I fear that it would be more rear-engine than a mid one.

[Jon Burford]

If you don't use a bike engine the E36 is playing at my next heart string. well done!

[RollingCamel]

The stupid thing is that I'll never be able to get it road legal with the current stupid laws... well screw the laws. I'll take it to the parliament if needed..

PS. As for the factory, what will be available cnc sheetmetal cutting and forming machines such as HD plasma, punch, bender and cutter. Also, will have turning lathe, mig and tig welders and an electric crane. Furthermore, a sandblaster and electrostatic paint oven. Couldn't ask for more ^_^

The materials will be on my boss http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...Hopefully he keeps the promise.

[mech5496]

You should consider yourself lucky having access to such machinery....and for the free materials too! As for getting it street legal, we have the same problems here in Greece. possible solution (although maybe a bit expensive): Get it to UK, pass SVA and MOT (you can do it pretty easily as long as your vehicle is designed with reasonable safety features in mind), get a UK license plate, get it back and import it to your country to get plates there. Might be applicable to other countries apart from UK... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Jon Burford]

we are very lucky here in the UK with regards to SVA!
also you'r lucky to have all that equipment, wish we had that much to build and FS car!

[Peter7307]

Rolling Camel,
Years ago there was a company in Australia producing a mid engined variant of the Lotus 7 clone (a locost in all but name) using the original Mini as the power source.

The vehicle was sold in kit form to avoid tax and was built under the name NOTA with the FANG model having the mid engined configuration.

The frame was square steel space frame and the panels were fibreglass.

This design might give you some ideas for your project.

Peter.

[PatClarke]

Pete,
Nota Engineering in Parramatta made very many 'standard' clubman cars called Nota Sportsman and many are still around.

The Fang was really a cheapy effort using a Mini sengine/transaxle, subframe and suspension in the rear and an adaptation of the Hillman Imp swing axle suspension in the front, all wrapped up in a minimilast body. It couldn't last because there was no way it could meet any vehicle standards and ceased 'production' way back in the '70s. I wouldn't recommend the Fang as a design target to anyone. To me it had more in common with a beach buggy concept than a proper clubman.

A decade or so ago, Chris, the son of Nota founder Guy Buckingham, tried to reprise the Fang and built a more modern version using a Toyota V6 powertrain in the rear. The car was bigger, better designed and much faster, only sharing the same name and general look of the original Fang.
I have heard nothing since.

I think a Google search will find information on Nota cars over the years.

Cheers
Pat

[Jon Burford]

An incentive to live in the UK?

http://www.robcollingridge.com/kitcar/

[RollingCamel]

Droool...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot0Cxmk2aa4

BTW, does a roll bender crushes the tube all the way or just the start?

[Ben K]

Originally posted by RollingCamel:
Droool...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot0Cxmk2aa4

BTW, does a roll bender crushes the tube all the way or just the start?

Want.

[mech5496]

Hehe, I have shown that video (which I found on dpcars.net-a very interesting website if you are into motor racing) on the guy responsible for making our roll hoops a couple of years ago and he almost killed me....http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif We call it a "metal pooper" in our team, no wonder why!

[Peter7307]

Pat,
Yes I have to agree with your observation regarding the Fang being a poor choice as a design target.

The expression "cheap and cheerful" certainly comes to mind.

Peter.

[AxelRipper]

I've always wondered what could be done with a 3D bender on an FSAE chassis. I figure the entire frame could be made out of about 5 separate pieces.

[Aly]

Akram

keep it up http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I hope you succeed in what your doing ...
though I think it would be very hard to run it legally as you previously mentioned ...
"momken tel3ab biha fel sa7el bas masalan XD"

This summer insha allah (after the finals) , I'm planning to get my (lada vaz 2106 1500cc) all naked , fix chassis , paint it and fix all suspension electrical connections and mechanical issues .

I'm thinking of some tuning though ...

Apart from a good sound system , lights and etc
I'm thinking of using air suspension to be able to raise the car when passing high stumbles on the road .... it happens much that the car scratches with the asphalt ...
It might be more sporty when running low on high roads though it might be a little unwise to lower the car having a front engine and rear wheel drive .

The main problem would be how will I control such system while the car runs by a carburetor not an ecu .

I'm thinking of designing a mini circuit for this purpose only

WOULD THAT BE A WISE THING TO DO OR NOT ?

I need your opinion http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Joe_Little]

Can anyone point me to "Pat's thoughts about Locost builders and mistakes" to which the OP referred? Can't seem to find it.

[AxelRipper]

I'm guessing that it is Pat's most recent article.

http://www.formulastudent.de/a...rn-about-this-stuff/ (http://www.formulastudent.de/academy/pats-corner/advice-details/article/how-the-judges-learn-about-this-stuff/)

Good read about the topic of Locost and his racing history.

[RollingCamel]

This project will not move anywhere without getting the parts 1st. I've drawn several chassis concepts for front and rear engined layouts. Guess I'm gonna just use it for marketing and try to get some sponsors...

[Joe_Little]

Thanks, good read.

[RollingCamel]

I'm thinking of some tuning though ...
That would be polishing a turd...

About the laws to tell you the truth, kit cars must be subjected to extensive testing for it's road worthiness. I'd like to have a trailer but will need to develop another project to make power assisted trailer for my 998cc Daihatsu Sirion http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[Peter7307]

Thanks axleripper,
A good site and some great reading too.

Peter.

[PatClarke]

Undulating Dromodary http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If I were to build a car like this in Egypt, I would build a classic RWD clubman type car using a BMW 3 series or Mercedes C class as a donor.
These cars are pretty common in Egypt and are regularly wrecked, so easy to find the bits in a junkyard!

Pat

[Jon Burford]

Originally posted by PatClarke:
Undulating Dromodary http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If I were to build a car like this in Egypt, I would build a classic RWD clubman type car using a BMW 3 series or Mercedes C class as a donor.
These cars are pretty common in Egypt and are regularly wrecked, so easy to find the bits in a junkyard!

Pat


http://www.gkdsportscars.com/overview.html

Never seen these, looks like you could build a tasty 'fakerham' with a vanos straight 6. would certainly be interesting and fun.

[acedeuce802]

Any updates to this project?!

[RollingCamel]

Nope. Our factory is still far from finished, plus some other personal and financial issues that keeps me from starting.

Btw, I'm glad that you reminded me.

[RollingCamel]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89/AK-47-RaM/Assem4.jpg

Where I stopped on April this year. Will have a complete redesign and integrate roll hoops.

Some of the input I did in this regard.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89/AK-47-RaM/Chassis3sketch.jpg

[atm92484]

When I was designing my Locost, I tried to taper the rear portion of the cockpit like you are doing. After doing the mock-up I abandoned the idea due to the available space and my desire to stick to the traditional look of the Seven.

If you were to use two trailing links per side, a reversed A-arm on the bottom, and a lateral link on the top, I think you can take advantage of the Seven's shape without having to adapt a bunch of tubes to fit an IRS.

If I ever completely redo the rear suspension, this is the route I'm going.

[RollingCamel]

I'm just stuck without the parts as it defines the main packaging. There are some changes in my personal life that is holding me from committing to the project and start seeking sponsors, hopefully the new changes might be even more influential technically for the project(s) and myself.

Anyways, I was going to scrap the plans and start from scratch due to the loads of improvements that I want to do to the design.

[ffrgtm]

I'm currently building a "locost" with a hayabusa engine. I ended up going with MNR (a uk supplier) simply because they seemed to have the fewest mistakes in their design. Having done far too much research in the supplier area, my advice is to stay far far away from any kit sourced from the US. The fact that the majority seem to enjoy displaying their cars with 17 inch wheels should be the end of that avenue of discussion. "Procomp" who makes the LA Gold seem to be the only firm who have ever opened a dynamics book before, yet sadly they don't offer IRS.

Additionally, I'd suggest "losing" your copy of "build your own sports car" if you're involved with an FSAE team. Your own standards will be far too high to settle for that (not to mention the numerous dimensioning errors that are still in print).

Part of me wishes I'd have started my own project from scratch, but I like to tell myself that there is some value in re-engineering something that has been purchased by others. Plus I'm thinking it will feel nice to share any successful changes or validated analysis with the original manufacturer. My intent isn't to sound condescending or condemning or their work, but no one can deny the advantage in design you gain with correctly used software packages that weren't ever at the OE's disposal.

At the current phase of my "build" I took a step back and decided I couldn't live with supplied frame as is. I did the best I could to digitize my frame with a laser tape measure and caliper. I had just started playing with kinematics and some garbage solidworks fea before classes/fsae started this year.

P.S... if you're going with a longitudinally mounted bike engine stick with a 1L, for whatever reason they don't always seem to require an total rework of the oiling system. The zx14 or busa will require a dry sump... of which the only system that appears to be designed by actual engineers is/was more expensive than my entire donor bike.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-L0CuToTpObk/UBpmeigi-dI/AAAAAAAAGxs/Uv15xwE3LZI/s800/mnr%2520frame%25202.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ktbCJDuZOvE/UBpv2i0H2WI/AAAAAAAAGyI/_WcN34rhMZo/s800/torsional_trial_2.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RsA6Dhslopg/T6ordieoX9I/AAAAAAAABtc/6LC1IBPS3ro/s800/IMG_20120309_194629.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent...._20120307_144118.jpg (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_EjTu00-aUI/T6orXY1fodI/AAAAAAAABrk/pv79QiNOVpw/s800/IMG_20120307_144118.jpg)


If you need some inspiration to keep chipping at your design, these 47 seconds always help me: http://youtu.be/Fi1xRdl-UmQ

[RollingCamel]

Additionally, I'd suggest "losing" your copy of "build your own sports car" if you're involved with an FSAE team. Your own standards will be far too high to settle for that (not to mention the numerous dimensioning errors that are still in print).

Figured the same thing while reading it. I had a look at the MNR specifically the MNR Vortex. Are you getting a reversing diff?

[ffrgtm]

No I've decided to run without for now. I reasoned that it would make more sense to run an electric reverse, and it wouldn't be very hard to put in as an after thought if I really need it down the road.

[RollingCamel]

The bike-engined route is quite appealing however I'd like to do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9UVV0XuiDk).

From where you sourced the drive axle?

[Warpspeed]

Originally posted by RollingCamel:
The stupid thing is that I'll never be able to get it road legal with the current stupid laws...

Ah, there sometimes are ways and means...

How about road registering your creation as a Hot Rod ?

Don't laugh, in many countries this can be a much easier path to road registering some pretty insane machinery than any other way.

How about a nice tube framed all wheel drive Cosworth powered 1932 Ford ?
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r166/Warpspeed_photos/th_hrdp_0905_01_z1932_ford_coupefront_.jpg?t=12912 43287