Hey ArakLea first of all great job man! Its looking nice! Maybe I miss it in the past threads but I wanted to make you a question regarding what you are oing and I think your answer could be helpfull for sales event in FSAE.

Are you doing this car for fun personal car, or do you see this as an entrepenour business? I hope you see it as a business for this to make FSAE sense, if you do, what parameters tell you you can make a profit by re designing this car and producing it in small queantities, do you have a market for it, competitive price, fun to drive, looking to start a new racing series? is it a viable business model could you tell us a little about this if this is the case, if not if its just having fun with it, enjoy it looks like a very nice project!

I have seen a really nice FSAE car type around there some pictueres I think is called the ASTRO project or something similar and I belive they do sell it, it would be great to get them to talk a little about there business project.

Salu2!

Well, that is an excelent question.

Originally I approched the concept from a purely problem solving exercize in the early 80's. We had a gas problem then as well.

I had thought, looking at all the commuters of the day, what would a truely efficient INDIVIDUAL commuter vehicle be like?

At that time, it boiled down to Taddy. Not too surpisingly, it was along the thinking of many people.

Yet,I have learned some things since then.

I continue to pursue it on the basis that IF a utility purpose (or percieved benefit) can be well done, some number of people would love to acquire the solution. Even pay for it in someway. And in this ever bigger world, niche products have an ever wider ability to find these people. (using the web?)

But at that point the concept escapes the purely engineering world out into the business and marketing world.

Admittedly, I have opened the idea online, because I haven't the capital to do more. I did this because I wanted the solution available for others if I couldn't access it myself.

Everyone benefits from getting more utility from our energy. If you buy/use one, potentially, I personnaly benefit, Win-Win.

Frankly, the history of consumer automotive development (in the USA) mostly skipped this type of vehicle.('cept for maybe the Sparrow) Up to now, we really didn't need something so very optimized for the (all weather) commuter. (not badly enough at least)

So it has very little positive history to support a marketing projection. But this is a new era, and we need solutions. Today, 3 wheelers have become interesting again. I feel I agree but only if they provide a solution at a good price.

I believe the leverage-able idea is to be able to easilly afford a second commuter vehicle for work AND play. The scooter and motorcycle have traditionally filled that gap. (mostly limited to fair weather travel.)

Since the Taddy class (type 3 CabinScooter) is comparable to a motorcycle, that is where a marketing analsys can focus for hard proof of concept.

Basically a vehicle under 10k-USD or less with some sporting value, has a fair market opportunity. But there is also a market in the Do-it-yourself, street sport and racing arenas.

Kit cars have the potential to produce both a market history and grass-roots popularity with very little capital investment. It does require individuals to complete and licence each thier own.

So, preferably I would initally enter into the kit market, producing plans, specialty parts and website traffic. That is what www.detalitdon.com will be used for, sometime soon.

To be honest, I'ld like to acquire donations and a list of viable supporters. The supporters would in turn become happy recipients of completed vehicles, which they commit to use to promote the cause. The goal would be to provide a car to each family in the world willing to donate any amount.

At the point of viable profits from outside sales, donation intake would need to be limited so as to honestly service those who supported the early development.

Orinally, the early VW bug was that kind of a promotion, but then pre WWII governments promised many things to many people. The volkswagon did result however, and today you can easily research the rest of THAT story.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ArakLea,

One more shot without the funky front bumber...
..compared to a design I did a few years ago(projects gallery on 3wheelers.com)...





I think I may try a putting a deep-v winglet back on. Something a little nicer than the bumper-thingy.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ArakLea,

This is an interseting crosspost on kit car marketing from CabinScooters.groups.yahoo.com

-That's quite correct; for example, the Superformance kits, which are
complete, totally finished vehicles minus engine and transmission,
have a very high completion rate, since a builder with average skills
and the proper tools can finish them and be driving in under 20 hours.
They also cost well over $40,000, about twice the price of the average
Cobra kit. Other kit manufacturers have begun to offer "engine minus"
kits, also at premium prices. It's a wise business practice that
results in a high percentage of very high quality finished vehicles.
With very few exceptions, kit cars generally end up costing more, not
less, than a manufactured vehicle. The exceptions are those built by
unusually talented people with superior skills, such as metalworking,
fiberglassing, engine rebuilding, etc., or those lucky enough to buy a
partially-built kit for a small fraction of its original cost from a
(often disillusioned) failed builder.
A Cabin Scooter kit could be made by the same manufacturer that
produces production models, after the costs of manufacturing have been
amortized by selling completed vehicles. The number of kits sold would
be a very small fraction of the total production, and likely not worth
the effort.-- William L.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-document...375&topart=passenger

Looks like you could just buy your project if this car actually is ever made.

(BTW-Your current entry looks really sweet! I dig FSAE!)

Oh, I love the Aptera, but there are two substancial differences to my designs.

I want a single seat or inline seating at least.
And I want under 10k retail. The Aptera sells at 30k for the foreseable future.

As another example, for years, the Corbin Sparrow (single seat) sold well over 15k up, moving up to 27k and never suffers (so far) from depreciation if kept in good shape.

It is revamped to electric and selling over 30k.

Oh one more item, it weighs in at 1500lbs in EV form. Mine,well 600lbs in EV form

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ArakLea,

I do not believe there is any chance that an FSAE vehicle could be beat by one of these for the same horse power on a circuit track.

But I think it is fun to imagine such a racing class. It would take more driving skill, or different skills than a FSAE. Unless you switched to FWD, then all bets are off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjE4x0T6Ioc&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLj0SQrYJqk
http://www.trirodmotorcycles.com/



Personally I'ld rather sit down in it, for safety like FSAE or forward like in CAFE cycle racers (with a swivel seat for turns).

Well considering all that you shouldn't do with your life, here is an interesting way to go nuts on the trike subject.





If you want to live a few days longer, consider this as a front wheel drive proposal.

I think I'm obligated to fill in a little advice. On a 2F1R-RWD, do not go less than 50% weight on the rear. The images you see break that even worse than the post prior.

If you want excessive power; FWD or AWD is advised in the 2F1R layout.

Note also, that if you apply 65% weight up front and 50%/50% power to f/r you can achive power activiated oversteer. Similar to other racing vehicles. With so much complexity to get positive effect at high power, Small wonder that 4wheelers are the dominant form.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ArakLea,

There is a quite nicely built swedish reverse trike aswell, or rather there was, road legal in both trike and car "setup" .

It looked like this:


It has since then been converted to a car with a chain/differential setup quite like an FSAE car.

Website can be found here: http://www.home.mride.se/

Build threads from a forum, in swedish but with some great pictures:

The trike build: http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4971&postdays=0&p...hlight=mride&start=0
The car conversion: http://rejsa.nu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33711&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Here's a video from an AutoX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs6AE28WNV0

Anyone remember the Morgan 3 wheeled vehicle?
Normally called "TriMogs" two wheels at the front and one at the rear , single and sometimes dual side by side seating and the spare wheel at the rear.
Power was normally a V twin four stroke of about 1 , 000 CC with the crankshaft centreline along the vehicle centreline. Think Moto Guzzi not Harley- Davidson.

One point for all prospective designers:
Put parking / running lights out where the wheels (both ends) are so other vehicles know where yours ends lest you be mistaken for a motorcycle in the heat of the moment.

Also some means of luggage or shopping bag carrying is essential if you design is to be taken seriously as a viable alternative.

There are enough "fun cars" (eg: Arial Atom) out there as it is.

Pete.

>There are enough "fun cars" .. out there as it is.

Actually, there have always been enough. Because it is a want and not a need.

But the thirst is insatiable. There is always room for more. If only just to gaze and dream.

We remain as always, children, by one measure or another.

Speaking of more work and less play,, in support of high mileage commuting like Taddy represents, I now have the Advocacy website running.

For anyone curious Detalidon Formula

I've recently done some 3d Modeling, thought I would post some of that for you to see.

There are several of these images in this one style.

Side view of the v1.02 chassis, no body.

Little bit of a clip to show the relationship of everything. Kind of like sitting in a large canoe

OK so this is kind of a Jimmy-Dean 50's Retro style.

Still tying to deside what to do for the grill. It's doesn't really require one, being electric. But I need some air flow to the motors so I'll try this cut..


Final cut for this style. Many faces are possible, I just slapped a simple one on it.

I'm not sure I like it the best, but that will do for now.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ArakLea,

For an option to fit my DF chassis, I figured I would try a image of a body style with flat wrap sheet in either aluminum or coroplast.
This form would be do-able in those materials.

It's open top to qualify as a motorcycle in some states.

A local welder/machinist that has helped our FSAE team out for years has just completed his Steath Tryke prototye car.

You can see more at www.lehighvalleychoppers.com or on a quick video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoOMC3HWuFY

Yes, nicely brutal machine. A pedestrian would not want to contact that nose at any speed, so hopefully it is for the track only. But it looks impressive at least.

However, I'm always sensitive to the rear power issue.

You will notice that on the movie they burn a lot of rubber. It is often exhibited to be impressive, but it really masks the problem that it is much too easy to burn rubber.

There is always a trade off between rear traction and rollover when a reverse trike is powered only in back. It would require a high level of power control to win and stay safe.

I would love to be the only FWD 2F1R in a hord of racing 2F1R's. Even add some 1F2R. All other things equal, if there are any turns at all, you should beat them hands down.

Of course that boast has yet to be proven.

I believe that the attraction for trykes, at least in Pennsylavania is that they are much less regulated than 4 wheel cars. In PA they are classed by the DMV as a motorcycle, even if you are producing them and selling them. That means no crash testing, catalytic converters, windshields, defrostors and a host of other things required to be on a 4 wheel vehicle.

The stealth tryke above (with some modification yet to be done, such as wheel farings) is intended as a street vehicle.

quote:

Originally posted by Composites Guy:
I believe that the attraction for trykes, at least in Pennsylavania is that they are much less regulated...

True for every where. There is a very slight advantage for the single seat and less so for tandem in the weight. Which is very much negated by other issues as your payload gets bigger. But yes rules are a primary.

quote:

..classed by the DMV as a motorcycle.

Most places with a few other considerations thown in.

quote:

..even if... you are producing them and selling them. That means no crash testing, windshields, defrostors and a host of other things required to be on a 4 wheel vehicle.

Yes! Life is good.

quote:

catalytic converters

I prefer EV for obviouos reasons.

quote:

The stealth tryke above (with some modification yet to be done, such as wheel farings) is intended as a street vehicle.

Well, OK I should embrace it then....eek...I would like to save a little mileage too.

For those of you who have checked out the STEALTH TRYKE, It was a project done out of passion. The number one thing I have tried to convey is, LOOK WHAT MY COMPANY brings to the table. As far as what it looks like etc.it is what I wanted from the start. It can be anything! (IF you can dream it, I can build it.) Again, as far as the nose comment earlier, well, 10 flat heads and two push pins are all that is keeping it on. The NOSE can be anything you'd like. Such as a stubby SAE nose with crash protection ETC. USE your imagination! THE ENGINEERING ON THIS VEHICLE is done. The next project is on the board. The only thing that changes from what I want to build, is somebody paying me for what they want me to build. There are reasons for everything I do on a build. But,until you ask you will never know.

Well I don't want to leave any other impression than to say it is a very strong statement about abuility.

It's a nice piece of hardware. There are always oppinions about adjustments etc on this forum.

It is definately impressive.