Great competition everyone!

Go Midwest Pirates!

hey guys!!! first of all...congratulations!!!!! now...do you guys have the full overall results? i only see for the top ten...

Can any please....publish the full results?

Thanks!!

Man, that was the craziest week ever for us. I can't believe we made it through the enduro. Huge thanks to the University of Texas - Austin guys, you really saved us with all your help. Also, thanks to everyone else that helped us out up in Fontana.

Man, we were so excited to finish and then winning the 2nd place for rookie team really topped it off. What an awesome week, hopefully we'll be back next year better prepared.

Our static events were lacking a bit, but thanks to one of the design judges our car has a new nickname.

quote:

Originally posted by rp:

quote:

Originally posted by 2BWise:

I don't want to make any judgements against Western Washington but according to the rule book contact is a DQ. What bothers me is that the organizers are penalizing teams for headrest infractions, but not penalizing WWU for contact with Toledo. I feel that this is a very unfair application of the rules. If you're going to enforce one rule, then all must be equally enforced.

5.7.15.4 Penalties for Moving Violations
The following are penalties and assessed times or disqualifications for moving
violations:
a. Failure to obey a flag: 1 minute
b. Over Driving (After a closed black flag): 1 Minute
c. Vehicle to Vehicle contact: DISQUALIFIED

Some things are not black and white, and application of penalties must be tempered by judgement.

SAE convened a panel of experienced and impartial (our teams didn't finish endurance) faculty advisors and officials to hear this case. We reviewed the report from the track officials and took testimony from and questioned the WWU driver.

The track officials reported the Toledo driver was given a blue flag on the previous passing zone, which he ignored. He was given a blue flag on this passing zone as well, and from his line and acceleration it appeared he was not going to pull over into the passing lane. The WWU driver accelerated to keep up. Apparently then seeing the flag, the Toledo driver braked hard to pull into the passing lane, and was hit from behind by WWU.

The panel felt a DQ was inappropriately harsh for this case. While the WWU driver admitted that he should have allowed more room, the panel felt the Toledo driver was also at fault. Neither car was damaged to the point of not being able to continue, and both cars finished endurance. WWU was given a black flag on their last lap, which cost them about 2 minutes in endurance. Toledo was given a one minute penalty for failing to obey the blue flag. The panel felt these penalties were adequate for the situation. The WWU penalty probably cost them a top 3 finish.

SAE seemed pleased with both the decision and the process. Given this incident, and the aero DQ in Detroit, I think we may see some new wording in next year's rules regarding how DQs are handled.

I appreciate the clarification as this information paints a clearer picture of the situation.

Was the Toledo driver questioned as well. We're pretty close with Toledo due to testing together and I spoke with him afterwards. He had said that this was his first lap after the driver change and missed the first passing zone due to cold tires and was ready to pull over in the second zone. I have passed and been passed multiple times in Enduro over the years and have always given more than adequate room in case of incident in front of me leaving room to react. It appears the WWU driver understands he mistakenly was too close and I don't fault his error in judgement. Let me acknowledge now that I have no issue with WWU not being DQ'd and have nothing against WWU, but want to use this as an example.

My biggest issue is the comparison of this penalty with the penalties taken other penalties, particullarly the headrest rules. If I'm not mistaken there was roughly ten teams that got the "meatball" for a headrest in fraction. Now, WWU got what appears to be a 1 min for wreckest driving, correct? We took a 2 min 30 sec penalty for a headrest infraction. Now please compare the severity of the two penalties. There are minimal chances for contact inwhich the headrest will be of needed or of any use, so why do we have to incur 2 min 30 sec penalty for it? The car went thru tech in VIR, MIS, and ACS with no issue. Was driven in VIR and MIS and ACS autox with no warning of an issue. The rule makers were trying to make a point about the headrest and succeeded and ruining several teams endurance. WWU was within .5" of ruining Toledo's race by taking out the aarms and is penalized 1 min, while teams not meeting the headrest rule on a visual ruling were penalized at least a minute or more. This is not fair and should be dealt with better in the future.

Yeah, we got meatballed twice for the headrest. I'm sure we spent over 5 minutes trying to fix it. For some reason it was good enough for autocross, but not the enduro.

Scott

Is the issue with the headrest that the driver's head is too far from the headrest, or that its breaking into the limits of the plane between the roll hoops? I saw a bunch of cars with impromptu duct taped headrest enhancements, but I thought the real problem was drivers sitting up with their head poking through the rollover plane.

I have a feeling the rules committee will have to further clarify driver/helmet placement in the future. Seems a car can get through tech with the driver laying way back, then they hit a dynamic event and they're leaning upright so they can actually see where they're going, clearly not passing the broomstick across the roll hoops test.

Yeah, we actually used a go-kart style neck restraint while driving in the dynamic events which was keeping our heads upright and too far away from the headrest. This was also causing us to break the rollover plane.

The real solution would've been to remove the neck restraint rather than duct taping anything I could find to the headrest.


Scott

2BWise,

As the driver for Toledo of the incident, I have to tend to agree with you. Don’t get me wrong as I have no hard feelings towards WWU as I know they didn't do anything on purpose and they probably got more of the damage in the long run. And I apologize to them about not being able to turn into that first pass zone. By the time I saw the flag I was indeed sliding the front tires past that turn in. We were very very lucky we didn’t get taken out on the first lap of enduro as the hit was thousands of an inch from taking out our a-arms.

Now I see the intention of the rule for the head rest is safety, but the times some of these teams were kept for a visual inspection was pretty harsh in regards to that of other infractions. I watched some of the cars later in the day that were far worse in terms or distance on the head rest and were not even questioned??? So why dock the teams that were doing well and deserved a fair chance at a decent finish? A lot of time, hard work, and money was spent to get to these events and can easy be ruined by a bad call. I think there definitely needs to be some more consistency in the endurance events.

On a side note, I am pretty disappointed that some one or team decided to steal all our driving stuff and Laptop with data on it while we were at the awards ceremony. For anyone that was back there and may have saw something, our stuff was in a small pile by paddock 37 if I recall correctly. Any info would be greatly appreciated and could even throw in some type of reward. Or if the person is man enough to grow up and admit to it that would be nice. I know it was not accidentally picked up as some other stuff was gone through and not taken due to low value items such as dirty clothes. Just think it’s pretty ridiculous when you can’t trust your stuff at comp!!!

Our headrest was placed in a pretty comfortable position. If anything maybe a little far forward for my liking, but before the endurance they told us to push it out farther, so we taped a shirt onto the head rest. They told us that would work. I'm really not sure how they think that would help anything, but had we made it all the way through the endurance I sure didn't want to get pulled in because of it. So we were thinking maybe we should come up with some sort of hans type device to make it so your head can't move. I mean if that's what they want it would be worth looking into.

I find it funny with all of this "shellshock" about headpad rules and such. Teams have been sneaking by for years with unnatural/unrealistic seating positions because they wanted to design the lightest/tightest cockpit for their 5'10" 160lbs drivers and not designing the cars to fit the 6'3" 230lbs 95th percentile man they are supposed to fit. How many years have people gotten sores from driving their cars and having the rack and pinion rub against their ankles and laughed about it? That is so unsafe to do not in the sense of the rack busting loose but if you bust a tie rod and goes through your ankle. Not really seen in formula but I have seen catastrophic accidents in mini-baja that if they did this people would be walking funny. The cars are supposed to be designed to fit the people we are selling them to. Compromises that some team continue to not want to do have to be made to make this possible. The judges have done nothing but warn teams for the past 4 years about their displeasure with this situation and have been warning to buckle down with templates/rules/crackdowns. Well I think this year with all the DQ's is pretty much the final straw on their part and unfortunately that is what it takes to get most teams to listen. The reason for the new "bus" rules are because the judges are sick of us dicking them around. These rules more or less make a car the size necessary to fit large people, with room to spare, to make sure that we do what we are supposed to. If you made it through tech and got pulled for leaning way they hell out of where you are not suppose to be then you either "cheated" to get through tech or there is some crazy conspiracy of dumb safety judges. I tend to look toward the former. It seems that the driver tends to be the last thing instead of the first thing the car is designed around. Maybe that will change. I am not saying there aren't mistakes that happen but with the stakes this big why in the world would you take the chance.

There shouldn't have to be shellshock. Last year the judges warned about the 1" rule and first thing at MIS they were checking cars before they reached the line. This didn't happen at Cali. I sat in the car several minutes and queued for autocross on Friday, passing several judges in the process, head in the same position as it always is, yet on Sat. we get nailed. Nothing was even said in the Enduro drivers meeting. There is no issue if its consistent, but the insistency to penalize teams only during Endurance is harsh and unfair.

quote:

maybe we should come up with some sort of hans type device to make it so your head can't move. I mean if that's what they want it would be worth looking into

The HANS Device does not limit a driver's head from moving under normal driving conditions. This would be unsafe for any driver. The device only prevents the driver's head from traveling too far from a driver's neck when involved in a colision.

I have worn the HANS in multiple types of racecars with seat angles ranging from 20 degrees plus to zero degrees. I must say the HANS has saved my neck several times. Also, being a shorter/smaller driver it helps put the shoulder belts at a more reasonable angle.

Just remember several years of etensive research, testing, and money were involved in designing the HANS and similar devices. Maybe a better solution would be looking into making cockpits more compatible with these devices.

Design feedback is up on youtube:

part 1 to come.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI5XwH2osDk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9-wDVaiES8

quote:

Originally posted by michaelwaltrip:
The only part of the competition I'm still confused about is how Cal Poly won endurance by that much. Not taking anything away from them, they were running fast, but not 30 seconds of raw time faster than everyone else.... I don't recall ever seeing them pass anyone. I might have missed it though.

We were running on 3 cylinders during the autocross and accel events, and that's why the endurance went a lot better. I think we passed three cars, but I'm not sure.

Being in California, I'm lucky enough to see Pomona practice every year before comp. This year they were FAST. No doubt that they have made a great improvement this year.

As someone who's been around for going on four years, I think it was a definite mistake on the course workers' part to send Toledo when they did. Having been someone who also talked to both drivers and teams it was just a crappy situation. Toledo was out on cold tires, cold brakes and first lap for that driver. He went in a little hot and couldn’t turn in. That situation has happened to every driver just in different circumstances. By nature the person following has the responsibility to watch for what is happening. Its clear there were mistakes on both peoples parts and ultimately if Toledo's A-arms were taken out WWU should have been DQ'ed. During comp I thought they should have been DQ'ed right there on the spot. But being that SAE convened a panel to vote on it then that was the right decision. Just like F1 with Ferrari/Mclaren it’s the right decision and I don’t think any teams knew about the panel at competition.

As far as the consistency of DQ's and the enforcement of rules period, over the last few years I feel like there has been serious lack there of. I can understand to a certain extent with the number of volunteers that help run the events. However things like scrutineering, points delegation and penalties should be of the utmost importance when it comes to consistency. Asking a team to cut out chassis bars and weld in new ones after passing structural equivalency is one of the most severe cases I have heard of but there are a lot of different occurrences of students having to completely refab some part of their car that passes at Michigan but fails at California.

Disqualifying some teams but not others for the headrest issue was seriously inconsistent this year just as ride height was last year. When teams are working for a full year let alone those teams who run two year programs, there’s nothing more frustrating then getting penalized for something that another team doesn’t. Not only are you taken out of the running for a top finish but then there’s the realization that some teams got away with it. Texas A&M last year lifting two tires. Okay, it’s up to the steward's discretion of how severe it is but things like that are what make me upset.

Then theres the points delegation. This year design judges, dont know if it was head design judge's decision, kind of doubt it, decided that the top teams were not "up to par" so they did not award the full amount of points for design. If it does say somewhere in the rules that they can delegate as many points as they feel to the winner than someone please post a quote. In this year's case those ten points would have made a huge difference considering the top four teams were within 20points of each other. That would be like saying that because the total elapsed time of the top cars at endurance was a lot slower than the previous years' cars everyone gets 20 points less. Obviously it isnt the same thing but its the same principles.

Sometimes i feel like they forget how much time and effort goes into these cars. To be disqualified for something or losing points can be devastating. MIS is a great example of how other teams as well as myself feel. The banking destroyed most teams' cars. One team cracked their chassis, another buckled a pushrod and tons of other teams destroyed their cars at comp. To my knowledge it says nothing in the rules about having to be ready for a transition onto a 18degree banking. I understand that our cars should be able to handle certain courses but we are just starting to get to that point with comp where they are throwing elevation changes and what not at us. When it takes this long to design and fab a car i think SAE needs to spend some more time assesing track layout and other issues that could potentially knock out a team.

I would like to add though that I am more than grateful for the opportunity to participate in something this great throughout the entirety of my collegiate career. I cannot thank SAE enough for all of the opportunities that this has afforded me. This is a great program and it truly benefits us students a lot more than most realize. Just a tired (physically and mentally after last week) student's constructive criticism.

quote:

Originally posted by The Bunker:
2BWise,

On a side note, I am pretty disappointed that some one or team decided to steal all our driving stuff and Laptop with data on it while we were at the awards ceremony. For anyone that was back there and may have saw something, our stuff was in a small pile by paddock 37 if I recall correctly. Any info would be greatly appreciated and could even throw in some type of reward. Or if the person is man enough to grow up and admit to it that would be nice. I know it was not accidentally picked up as some other stuff was gone through and not taken due to low value items such as dirty clothes. Just think it’s pretty ridiculous when you can’t trust your stuff at comp!!!

Losing your stuff was definitely a bummer, I felt bad for your team when I heard what happened. I had a strange incident while setting up for design finals (I am with UW) which may, I hope, help explain the situation.

We rolled the car into the bay and brought in our design boards. Most spectators were very courteous about staying out of the bay and/or evacuating when asked. However, there was one gentleman in his mid-twenties, who did not respond positively when I asked him to step away from the car so that we could set up. He acknowledged my request with a "yeah, okay" but kept moving in closer. Suddenly I found myself chest to chest with the fellow at the back of our car. He looked up at me and asked if I were looking for a fight. VERY STRANGE. After explaining that we needed room to work and that we would be docked if there were excess people in our bay he reluctantly moved outside but continued to crowd our bay.

His response pulled me out of "get setup for design" mode and into "what the h-e-double-hockey-sticks is going on here" mode. It was then that I noticed a few more peculiar things. The guy was ripped. No shirt, shorts, and flip-flops. Clearly not dressed like a competitor. No wrist band. He was there with a few other guys with a similar demeanor.

For a moment after I put all the pieces together I was a little afraid for my safety.

I moved onto another tack with the guy. "where are you from (as in which school)," I asked. "Around someplace" was his response. "wow, that car looks really fast!" he said. I continued to chat for a moment. Nothing very sophisticated from him.

Site control for these events is pretty open. I think its fair to believe that everyone on all of the teams is there to compete, has good intentions, and can be trusted in a pit environment where people leave their equipment unattended. That said, there is nothing to keep local crim's away or to ID and remove if they show. I would worry that a small group, having had good luck pilfering this year, may be back in greater numbers with more organization next year.

Aside from that, comp was great fun!

Western v Toledo: bummer any way you slice it.
Headrests: We were almost caught by this (fortunately we were saved by our car stopping on track), I would have accepted the penalty. We all have fair warning and plenty of time before comp to address. No excuses.
Derek at WSU: Bummer about the running problems. You guys have done a lot with a little over the last couple of years: impressive
WWU: you guys keep making life tougher in the NW. Really enjoyed testing together this year!

ryan

http://home.comcast.net/~jackbloomberg/site/?/page/WPOAA295XKN150876

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rkellz007,

quote:

Originally posted by scottie:
Then theres the points delegation. This year design judges, dont know if it was head design judge's decision, kind of doubt it, decided that the top teams were not "up to par" so they did not award the full amount of points for design. If it does say somewhere in the rules that they can delegate as many points as they feel to the winner than someone please post a quote. In this year's case those ten points would have made a huge difference considering the top four teams were within 20points of each other. That would be like saying that because the total elapsed time of the top cars at endurance was a lot slower than the previous years' cars everyone gets 20 points less. Obviously it isnt the same thing but its the same principles.

quote:

4.5.11 Scoring
Scoring will be from 0 to 150 pts. at the judges discretion.

The judges felt that all cars were lacking, on all three cars, the judges found things they felt should not be present on a winning car, it was a unanimous decision to not award full points.

Dynamic event points are spelled out in the rules that the fastest car gets full points, the remainder of the cars points are calculated from that. Static events do not have this limitation (Cost does not award full points if I recall correctly).

Cars should be ranked relatively. The judges decide that ranking. The cars in finals were not far enough ahead of the rest of the field to justify a 30 point spread.

Does anyone have the full results sheets? Thanks.

Anyone have pictures up? James? Dan? I didn't really get to see many of the other cars on track that week.

How about feedback on

the new dynamic area layout?

autocross course?

endurance course?

Anyone have and willing to share in car data from either event? average speed, top speed lap times etc....