The burning question is not what event is the best. You can’t compare the competitions.
Coming from a team which is located in Europe I got a different view to this question and a different answer. As student I attend on 7 comps, 4 in UK 2 in Australia and once in Detroit (East now). Why teams go to other countries, spend a lot of money? For us it was just have a second competition and get some experience. Get in touch with other people from all over the world and show what we have done and how good our work is. We didn’t care about the question “is that the competition with the best teams”. We made out decision like: competition date, cost, organization of the comp. and most important the country where the comp. is held. If you spend a lot of money for the trip form your private budget, then you want to go to a place you would like to go.

Regarding the comp and the quality of the cars itself, you can’t compare! Of course you have the rules and the calculations for the points and times etc. but make this the comp. and the cars comparable. No, because the judging is different, even from year to year at the same competition. A team won design in US must not win in UK! As long as you didn’t attend different competition by yourself you can not make any comments about the competitions.

I think a Team should try to go to at least one oversea competition, not only because the competition, more than that to get in contact with other cultures, made new experiences, learning new things etc.

So don’t try to compare competition and their results. If you want to go to another comp; than think about the spirit of the comp; think about the special things who making it worth to go to that competition.

Ruska

I dont want to be too anit-american but could you please think about your 'why should we leave america?' post.

The world is bigger than america, especially when it comes to fsae cars.

Of course you try to win, if you go to a competition, but what you wrote sounds like the European Events are 2nd choise competitions. I think you will get surprised, because the europe teams get better and better each year. And their steps are much bigger than you think.

By the way, not 25% finished enduro in UK this year, nearly 50% finished.

So if you once made a trip to another comp overseas you will make experiences you will never forget. And this will not be the winning experience. You will hthinkk different when you will leave the university and look back some years later.

But if your reason for traveling is just racing, that is ok, but from my side of view FSAE is a learning experience, not only a from the technical point of view, also from the social one.

IMHO US Teams should travel more to oversea competition. I would be great if they are looking over their borders. because the world is bigger!

Frank

quote:

All of this still goes back to the point of why an American team would want to go to any event other than Detroit or Fontana...And at this time there is no need. EVERY dominant team around the world except Graz, and maybe some Japanese teams im unaware of, were at either EAst or West this year. And ill bet with Graz's reputation, and apparent budget, they are considering coming next year. The best place to get international information/social exchange just happens to be in our backyard. And were all aware that the world is bigger; how else would we know not to go to an oversea competition if we weren’t all keeping an eye on them ; )

-nick
University of Kansas

Sorry, I didn't read the whole post, but have you been to a competition before (and competed, not just spectated)? I am always impressed with the Austrailan teams (and multiple other foriegn teams for that matter) and how well they do here in the US. I haven't been to the Ausie comp, but it would definetaly interest me, especially after they come here and do consistently well every year (especially Western Australia, RMIT, and Wollongong). These guys are always friendly and willing to talk about their designs, etc, and they are always on top of their shit too. It's cool to be pro-american if that's your thing, but you shouldn't put off all the other comps (and countries) as inferior just because your american... Also your comments earlier seem pretty arrogant - when you have built a car and competed, then you have the right to talk, although you may have a different opinion (and more respect) at that point. If it weren't for funding issues, our team (UCSD) would be all over the world - it would be a great learning experience and give more imput on what other teams are doing, not to mention a whole lot of fun.

quote:

Maybe the reason no American teams travel anymore is because they dont think they would have a chance at winning anywhere else; nah that couldnt be, were all cocky remember. That means you too Billy, youre part of the generalization with the rest of us.

Huh? Did you not read my post? Ouy team didn't travel to another comp because we didn't have the money. We're too small (6ish members) to have a sponsorchip team, etc. - we were too busy designing/building the car. Obviously our main intention at a foreign comp would be to try and win, but it's far from the only benefit. I can see your point as a cost vs. benefit example, but if you can get the money, why not go?

It's great that RMIT, UWA, UW, Brookes, Helsinki, Hertfordshire, Sophia, etc all come here, but we're still missing all the other schoos that can't make it. Wouldn't it be nice to get the experience of seeing all them too?

I'm going to be careful what I say here - I'm hoping the intentions of some of the comments above aren't as conceited as they may seem. Thanks to Billy and others for making an effort to see how such comments may be interpreted from outside US borders.

My question to those that think they don't have to leave their own back yard – why do you assume we internationals are going to keep coming to you? Is it our obligation somehow? And when the day comes that we don’t – are you going to convince yourselves that yours is still the most important event in the world? It might have been so in the past – but the rest of the world has caught up.

Just because teams have travelled to you in the past doesn't mean they can keep doing so indefinitely. I know within our team, we have busted ourselves physically and financially to do overseas comps the last three years. Speaking to the UWA and UoW faculty advisors, they have similar issues. Our teams have made the effort, and used up a lot of goodwill and local resources, in order to prove that Australian engineering can compete at an international level. Now we have achieved that goal, future teams may not see it as being so important.

It is only going to get harder for us, as the novelty of going overseas to compete wears thin on our supporters, and we can't keep hijacking money and resources from our unis when there are other worthy causes to fund as well. Certainly there is doubt within my own uni as to whether we can make it back next year. So we can ask the same questions you can. Why should we spend the money to travel OS, just to compete at the same level and with the same teams as we do at home? With due respect, it ain't to entertain you guys.

Do you want to convince the world that American engineering is international standard? Then have a go at what the rest of us are doing. Try building a car whilst at the same time sending half your team across to the other side of the world with half your money. Take on a couple of extra part time jobs while you are studying just so you can afford the airfares. Negotiate exam postponements with belligerent lecturers. Give up your summer holiday. Is it hard? Too damn right it is. But the reason we were getting job offers in the US were because we could do all the stuff that you guys were doing, and then deal with all the other hassles related to doing it all again around the other side of the world.

If you don’t want to take up the challenge, then no sweat – that’s your choice. But there are other teams around the globe who are doing more with this formula than you are, and those of you content to stay at home and copy each others cars are starting to look a bit stale. The world is chasing engineers with global outlook, and you won’t get it by sitting at home and gazing into your own navel.

My apologies if the above seemed like an all-inclusive swipe at our American friends, it wasn’t meant to be. I’m only trying to wake up the few (represented by comments above), who give the impression that the world should come to them. From the experiences on our recent trip, I’m glad to say we found that attitude very rarely.

So anyway, onto the original intent of this topic. My comments regarding events – based on four different events attended:
Best / most challenging Design Event – FSAE East / West (tie)
Best / most challenging Cost Event – FStudent UK (really incisive manufacturing questions)
Best Presentation Event - FStudent UK (interested judges, great feedback)
Best Autocross / Endurance Event - FStudent UK (track layout is fantastic)
Best Skid Pad event – FSAE East (weather, track surface)
Best Acceleration Event – not a priority
Best Organization – FSAE Oz
Best Facilities – FSAE Oz
Best weather – FSAE Oz
Highest standard of cars – FSAE Oz
Most technically interesting cars – FStudent (some of the stuff there is just brilliant)
Best feedback on designs – FSAE East / West (tie)
Best after-party – FSAE Oz / FStudent (tie)
Nicest surroundings – FStudent
Best career networking options – FStudent 1st, rest equal
Event I just really want to do – FSAE Japan

And my personal prediction – the next big event is FS Germany. The Germans and Austrians (note – AUSTRIA, not Australia) are picking this game up quicker than anyone else I’ve seen, and have built some fantastic cars right from day one. And the event itself looks like it is going to be a beauty. If I were to recommend a must do event, that would be it.

Cheers all,

VFR750R - Thank you for also bringing up the statistical aspect in the results of ever increasing field sizes. I had considered this argument but it does not help support the point I was trying to make if we consider a field where all teams are at the relatively same level. Using a statistical point of view you are assuming that with increased numbers you also introduce an increased range of team levels (in terms of performance and ability). Obviously this is true in the real world but as Mike was taking a purely theoretical mathematical approach I thought it would be best to try to match it.

Handy Andy: As many of the non-American FSAE members have stated, they compete in multiple events in order to compete, experience the variety. This brings a whole new learning experience. By going to multiple events new points are brought to your attention, new designs philosophies and ideas are seen which could not be experienced if you only travel to one event. These new experiences only help in the design of your next car which in the end makes your team better and more competitive. That is where the Americans teams are losing ground. Yes they can progress by only competing in their home country, but all the other teams can progress at a faster rate by going around the world and adding new aspects to their team from each of the events.

Andy and Nick: The arrogance in your comments is disgusting. "If all the kids come to play at my house why the hell should I bother to go over to theirs.” Don’t worry the non-American teams may just stop coming to play with the Americans. The comments made by non-Americans is not American bashing but appears to be world-wide criticism of American arrogance. If you want true American bashing that can easily follow. Or just watch the number of American television shows on your Comedy Central I believe it’s called. The Colbert Report, an excellent satirical show on American patriotism. A true comical genius.

Upon the comments coming from American teams I think it may actually be better they not travel. Imagine if nick ever won a competition. The world would probably never hear the end of it. But of course based on Nick’s comments it seems the only reason Kansas will compete in FS is because all the other teams are of such low quality they could easily win. The amount of class you show is very disappointing but not unexpected.

The anonymity of basic names has been taken due to the pettiness of many people in this series. As Mike said, a name brings with it credibility, although even though he had credibility he lacked the understanding of the points system. The comments themselves bring credibility. Though I have given criticism I have kept it humane and I have backed up my comments.

Big Bird: It’s difficult for me to get to Australia and I would love to continue seeing your cars. However FS and FSG would probably appreciate the Australian teams appearance. You got across the point of travelling overseas very well. You are right about the Austrians and Germans. Its just great to see the international flavour coming to light in this series. Also I agree with your rankings of the categories.

Gentlemen,

Very interesting topic, been out of the game for a couple of years now and very seldom check the forums, but this topic has my attention. As to a university of choice for an under-graduate engineering degree: my choice would be a struggling first year team with little to no money.

Poeple have to remember this is an educational competition and the point is to get experience to eventually get employment. That's why industry sponsor, its a (somewhat) training and recruiting ground.

I can bet you, you'll learn more compared to joining the likes of the well established teams with big budgets and plenty of team members.

When Big Bird and I travelled to FS 2004, we flew the cheapest flights we could, lived on little sleep for 18 months straight and ended up a combined $30K+ in debt. But I can tell you we learned an incredible amount in that time. I'll ask you how many of you knew of RMIT before FS 2004??

Its not good enough to just be an excellent engineer in industry now. As corporate structures become leaner and the competition for careers increases, you need time, financial management, people skills etc to elevate yourself and get the job.

So my advice, pick the uni where your going to learn the most!

Cheers
Steve

Im light of someone with an actual name which I have met and talked to replying I will try to reword anything which was found negative the way I should have in the first place. The question I am attempting to answer for people is why an american team would want to travel to another competition. This explanation does NOT include my team which is already planning on attending FS next summer; partly because in MY opinion it looked less competitive DYNAMICALLy then either east or west this year. We will definitely get beat up statically but the points are still weighted in our favor. Also it would be a hell of a trip so why not go if you can get the money?

I could see any teams which are on the verge of traveling making excuses not to since dominant teams already travel to them each year; why go to Aust or FS and get beat by the same teams beating you at home? The AUst and FS comp don’t get as many visitors, keeping the thrill of competing against new and interesting teams alive by traveling. If you all stop coming here then maybe some of the bigger teams will travel again, I believe that’s the way it was when Gtech was attending FS and Aust. This whole conundrum is probably a good contributor as to why 95% of american teams are tube frame cookie cutter cars(not us by the way) and every other comp has a good blend of carbon chassis and tube frame. I think its boring like the rest of you, but with a single cylinder engine winning both east and west this year ill bet you’ll see a little more diversity next year.

I think that explains what I have been trying to say as well as puts into perspective my stance on the situation. I was unaware how delicate this topic would get and apparently I didn’t choose my words correctly. I'm sure somone else will have something to say but I hope we are atleast moving in the right direction.

nick
University of Kansas

First off, my apologies to everyone. My comment was not meant to be a display of the typical american cockiness, but rather it was ment to show why there are multiple competitons. Obviously more teams have the oppurtunity to compete if there are more competitions. If there was only 1 super competition held in europe ( or the U.S., or Australia), not every team who could normally comepete would be able to make it. This is why I said that it makes sense for American teams to go to american competitons. Just like Australian teams go to Australian competitons. Hats off to all the teams that can make the time and money commitment to go to other regions to compete, but I feel that this should not be a requirment.

I understand that the main goal of this competition is to learn, and I truely respect that, but if a japanese team, or a mexican team goes to detroit where no one understand there sales presentation, wether it be a language barrier or a cultural barrier, then what did they learn? I mean no disrespect by saying that. I think its best to stay in my borders, simply because it makes the most sense. We can drive to both comps within our border, all the judges speak our language, were competing against cars of similar ability, and we dont have all the extra financial burden of shipping and flying etc.

So in conclusion, isnt the main reason for all the different competitons purely a logistical one? Arent the FSAE and FS organizers simply trying to make it easier for all teams to compete?

Thought I'd throw my support in with Geoff. Every competition UWA has been to is a big logisitics excercise. For the Australian competitions the team has to travel from one side of Australia to another, and having competed in 4 Australian comps I can certainly empathise with the West Teams travelling to the east.

However it is no where near in the same league of difficulty as going overseas to Detroit. Because Detroit is the biggest competition, and run to an extremely fine timeline, I believe it is probably the hardest competition to travel to. I have been there three times, competing twice, and I can only say it is not an event I really want to compete in again. It is just flat out too hard to bother with too many times. You go halfway around the world to a country that doesn't speak english and are on the backfoot from day 1. The Detroit competition is very well run and the level of judging is incredible. But the competition is not really fun.

I have always strongly supported the idea of some sort of world competition as neither of the US events give a clear indication of which teams are really the best in the world. Apart from maybe giving an honest idea of how damn good the travelling teams of RMIT, Woolongong, and Leeds (earlier) were. I support the idea of the best teams from each comp getting together, because I think it would be a great challenge, and provide an event that is world-class motorsport and could be promoted as such to improve the marketing of the various competitions and the engineers involved.


What I want is a competion where cars of very different design philosophies fight tooth and nail right until the last day, with no clear idea of who is going to win. We had that in Australia 2004 with a monocoque single rollerskate, a turbo-charged short wheelbase spaceframe with a beaten up nose, and a monocoque canary with fancy dampers were only separated by 16 points by the end of the day with the result order of the three reversed from the previous day.

Not too mention in the same competition a winged car with a gear drive and DeDoin rear end won design, the Kiwis showed up with one of the best first year car ever made, XXXX drinkers won acceleration by miles with a solid axle, and a team that always seemed to be low level showed up with a side engined single that had fantastic build quality.

The Australian competition has my vote for best competition, partly because it is hotly contested but still fun and friendly, partly because of my ignorance of anything but the Detroit and Oz comps, but mostly because I am Australian.

In the end mtg has it right on. Once you have made a competition with a car built from scratch most of what you will gain from the competition has already happened. As for what team ... In five years of UWA the team was never the same. It never had the same atmosphere (sometimes for the best), and you always seemed to miss as many people as you found new stars. I'd say pick your local team/uni and do your best to make them the best, this is not the world series, or the English Premier League.

Oh yeah, and try to help your team to travel semi-regularly (maybe once every two years). It is a challenge and having done it a couple of times it tests skills you never knew you needed as an engineer.

Sorry for the rant / babbling.

Kev

thanx you guys.
this has been a great topic with many great ideas.
My name is Will and Im based in Southern California.
I do very much agree that traveling to out of country comps is extremely beneficial. The college I plan on attending hasn't left the U.S. yet, though im sure it isn't for lack of desire.

I'm just trying to keep my eyes open and learn from everyone i can.

hope to see you guys soon.
will

There seems to be some anti-American sentiment here, and all I can say is grow up. The reason most American teams don't go to other comps is because the biggest and most prominent comp is in the U.S.! Are there teams that dont come to Michigan that are good teams, yeah for sure, but you should be able to recognize that certain American teams (Cornell, Texas A&M, Michigan, Penn State, UTA, and so on) could easily compete against any of the current teams out there and be extremely competive. Please refrain from making any comments like these, there fairly ignorant and you are only misrepresenting your team.

Beatle,

Your post is way off the mark. It IS a shame that US teams do not travel, and the DO miss a lot by not venturing out of their shores. I have been working over here in the US for a year now, in motorsport, and the potential funding that the US teams have access to is amazing. There seems to be quite a few places in the US where money flows like water.

I do not think any of the posters are criticising the quality of the top US teams. But look at the numbers of European, Canadian and Australian teams that make the effort to go to multiple comps outside of their countries, let alone the percentage of teams. Then look at the number of US teams travelling, and what percentage that makes up.

It is not anit-American sentiment, rather it is a statement of an obvious fact that US teams are not travelling, and as such are not contributing to making these competitions truly global.

Two questions should be asked:

1. When was the last time a US team won a competition outside of their country?

2. When was the last time a non-US team won a competition in the US?

I hope your team raises the money, and travels internationally and becomes the next US team to win outside their borders ... it would be good to see the US teams travelling again.

Kev

2004---UTA FSAE japan

I was planning to weigh-in on the discussion, but Answerforsomeguy, Geoff and Kevin have already posted every argument I was going to use. In any case, you guys are spot on.

The 'why should I bother travelling, everyone can just come to me' attitude is unfortunately typical of American culture - you don't hear all those "Americans can't use passports" jokes because they're fun to deliver. If a few more of the US teams tried travelling overseas and being competitive outside their own country, they might understand how incredibly useful it is as a learning experience.

Not only that, but as Geoff correctly pointed out - it's a costly exercise to travel halfway around the world in order to compete against the same Aussie teams you do at home and 150 other CBR spaceframes. In the future the non-US teams might just not bother, especially if they're treated to the same sort of arrogant bull**** we've seen in this topic.

Oh, and Kevin - that was the University of Adelaide car that won design in 2004 with the gear drive. I'm part of the team trying to keep the 2005 car running - not easy when centre gears cost a grand and the drive likes shredding them every 20km.

Now that our team, Helsinki Polytechnic, has taken part to 3 different "major" competitions this year, I thought I could tell my opinions about what's best in where.

I think it has been made clear in FSG-topic that recent Formula Student Germany was a total success. From all three competitions it was by far the best this year. But there were good things is FS and FSAE also and I'm about to copy Big Bird's way to comment different events:

Presentation - hard to compare, every country had different things to like
Design - all three very different types, some things FSAE east judges didn't like, FSG judges loved. I would have to say FSG had best judges, just because we won
Cost - again all three different, in FSAE east it was quite normal, in FS we were a bit lost with "we are investors, why should we invest to your car from cost point of view"-question and in FSG it was all about trying to convince judges that our parts are that priced what it says in cost report
Autocross - in FSAE east and FSG with cones, in FS with cones but on go-kart track. It's always most enjoyable to drive and watch car on real track so that's why I like FS the best but FSG's cone layout was also good
Endurance - same than above but FS drops down with added cone part which has just too tight corners
Skid Pad – FS (weather was so and so but track is flat and same grip in every part)
Acceleration – I would have to say that best was FSG just because of our 3,84
Track surface - Best surface is go-kart track in FS, it's clean and flat. This was probably the worst part of FSG, it was just too bumpy. We had to drive 1cm higher than anywhere else and still our underbody hat couple of times every lap.
Cars – Europe is getting better and better but best were in FSAE east, but for how long!?
Facilities – FSAE east had good and bad parts, when you don't count the "pits" everything's fine, but pits are just not right. This year most of the people were on the gravel and every year everybody has to bring their own tent/shelter/what ever. With this arrangement everybody are scattered around and most of the cars are hard to find if you don't remember in which corner they were. FS improved a lot from last year. Three-branched pit tent with center info tent was just great. But in FSG, Hockenheim, what can you say.. Pits are the same where F1-mechanics wonder is Alonso's or Räikkönen's girl better looking, camp site where almost every team was present just within few minutes walk and enough big after party place right above pits. Just perfect.
Organization – good everywhere but in FSG it was just that what you would think germans are, precise but with sense of humour
Weather – Not good anywhere.. Only place where it really affected the competition, was FSG.
After-party – FSG, definetly! Come to think about it, any other competition didn't have a party at all.

Comparing all these three competitions leads to a bit of off-topic question, but these competitions really are DIFFERENT competitions. For our team this was a some sort of a problem this year.
In FSAE we didn't get to design semi-finals which was a big disappointment for us. In FS it went OK but in FSG the same car won with same presenters.
Presentation is hard to compare in all three cause we had different presenters in FSAE, but in FS we were second with quite good points and we thought we have a winner presentation in FSG since FS winner wasn't present, but no. FSG presentation went even better than in FS but we were 19th.
In cost event we got 79 in FS, 68 in FSG and 83 in FSAE even though the report and presenters were same.
What I'm trying to say is that in all three competition judges like different things and also judge in different ways. OK, of course we learned what german presentation judges like so we know it next year(hopefully) but if you would like to be winner in all these competitions, you should make three different cars, cost reports and presentations. And that's just too much..
I'm not sure how this issue could be solved(or is there even anything to be solved)? Three days FSAE/FStudent-judge course or some sort of "How to recognize a winner design"-book for homework for every design judge. Don't know.. Or is this actually a good thing that judges really are different. As this being a learning experience this way you concretelly understand that there are different types of cultures and persons even though they all like the sound of roaring V8.
Before I get too philosophic and before this gets so long so that everybody just skips it, I end this here.

Darien,

Knew it was Adelaide, I wasn't mentioning names of the teams in the post ... but I certainly remember getting beaten that year in design. I heard of some of the problems with short life in the gear drive, but the team did a lot with that car. Such a massive change from the years before. Further evidence of some teams willingness to try to redefine what these cars should be.

Kev

quote:

Originally posted by Kevin Hayward:
Darien,

Knew it was Adelaide, I wasn't mentioning names of the teams in the post ... but I certainly remember getting beaten that year in design. I heard of some of the problems with short life in the gear drive, but the team did a lot with that car. Such a massive change from the years before. Further evidence of some teams willingness to try to redefine what these cars should be.

Kev

Only dead fish swim with the stream.