http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/90D889BE209613...ONS%2011-07-2008.pdf

PAGE 37.

Appears that the new rules are lifted almost verbatim from the F1 rulebook.

-Wes

So you will learn more, and be better off for the experience.

Wes,

As are most of the rules, including diagrams are out of the SCCA rulebook. So if the judges are making safety rules based off of F1 and SCCA it doesnt take much to make the connection that things affecting those series will tumble down on to this one which I think is relavent to what this series is about along even though some of it is a tad overboard but that is expected considering how the series has been taken advantage of over the years.

Flavor,

90 inch wheelbase? If we switched to a single we could do feet behind the axle with a wheelbase of 65 inch. For some reason some teams has this love affair with longitudal engines with a geared diff. Nothing stoppping them from doing a sidewinder with a short wheelbase and feet behind the front axle. Deakin is another example. Worked with UIUC back in the day even though it was transverse and with a solid axle. I am fairly sure they did real good with it to even if it understeered like a bitch.

http://mechse.uiuc.edu/clubs/sae/Formula/pics/1995s/1995s.php

No reason with some development it couldnt be done today. Then again you have to have an open mind but thats another story. Many was to skin a cat and some are better then the normal way at least in my opinion. Also form a consistant thought along with your complaining masked as an argument/discussion if you are trying to pass it off as one. Your hole to China that you are digging just gets deeper.

quote:

Originally posted by Wes Johnson:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/90D889BE209613...ONS%2011-07-2008.pdf

PAGE 37.

Appears that the new rules are lifted almost verbatim from the F1 rulebook.

-Wes

yes, except that the Y template is 50mm larger in both directions...and the front suspension goes in front of the templates.

On the UIUC note:

I always thought a neat idea would be a combination of that car and the brown gokart which I still have yet to pics of. Anyone got any? Side mount engine what ever it may be. Driver sits up agains the roll hoop with a solid axle rear with a 4 link and panhard/watts/mumford link. The 4 longitudal links would attach at the front roll hoop like they do in a 600 srpint car. Then run a beam axle front with whatever built in camber you want and attach the 4 trailing links to the front roll hoop as well. All of you suspension forces minus the shocks would attach in the same longitudal plane and frame would be a joke for how light it would be since there really would be much torsion on the frame except from the shocks. Even then if you got creative you could run pullrods and rocker arms to the front roll hoop area much like on the Novakar Rakavon F500. Just a crazy though but you could do some damage with a car like that especially with a cvt.

great, Rob. Go spend another 3 years building that while real engineers go work on the DETAILS of a developed platform.

We can all come up with crazy ideas (maybe not as crazy as yours). But some of us like execution and optimization more than concept generation. It doesn't mean we have closed minds, just that we're different people.

Wes,
Smart observation. I believe that a number of the Formula SAE Rules Committee are scrutineers for the US F1 Grand Prix at Indianapolis or work in Formula 1. So we now know where the new template rules come from.

flavorPacket,
When was the last time you stood alongside an F1 driver? They have size 8 feet, not 12's or 13's, and are only about 5'6" to 5'8" tall, not 6'1 2/2" like Percy!

Geoff,
Your comments are succinct and balanced as usual. Nicely said.

It's interesting that it appears from this thread that several of the Aussie teams have bitten the bullet and will have cars that meet the new templates for the event in Oz in November.

Tech Guy,

The last time I stood alongside a F1 driver was this summer in Montreal. Let me assure you, Robert Kubica does not have size 8 feet.

The problem I guess for Australian teams is that if we want to compete overseas we need to have this years car comply with next years rules.

We build cars for our competition in Nov/Dec then take then overseas the next year. Teams here dont' build cars for the US or Formula Student comps and then enter then in Aus.

Yeah, certainly the average F1 driver is no where near the size of a 95th percentile male, but there are a few that are pretty tall (remember Justin Wilson a couple years ago was 6' 3"). And judging from the size limitations on entrants in a Phillips/Williams contest to drive an F1 car they come close to Fitting from 5th percentile female to 95th percentile male (100kg max, 159cm-186cm height, but a fairly limiting max shoe size of 10 UK):
http://www.attwilliams.philips.com/en-GB/gloproterms.html

but any back on topic, seems like they should be able to release the rules a bit earlier, but the templates have been defined for a while (assuming they don't change them), and the fuel economy change can be dealt with reasonably further into build with better tuning not to mention that they are actually giving us a bit more room (29 vs. 26 liters/100km)before the score "drops steeply" however you wish to interpret that
-Barnaby

They have posted an Overview.


FORMULA SAE
RULES CHANGES FOR 2009

For the benefit of the teams, below is a summary of the major rules changes for the 2009 Formula SAE competitions. It is not a complete list and is not binding. If there are any differences between this summary and the official rules, the Rules will prevail. Therefore, it is the responsibility of the competitors to read the published Rules thoroughly.

Rule # System Change
3.1.5 - Cockpit - Templates for the cockpit opening and pass-through to the pedals.

3.2.5 - Brakes - In side view, no brake components on the sprung part of car can project below the bottom of the frame or tub.

3.2.6 - Jacking Point - The accessibility requirement is made clarified.

3.3.2 - SEF's - SEF's will b required from ALL teams even if the team "has nothing to declare". There will also be penalties for late submission.

3.3.3 - Frame - None of the components that comprise the "Primary Structure" can utilize welded titanium construction.

3.3.4 - Helmet Line - The 50.8 mm (2 inch) clearance line rearwards of the Main Hoop will be clarified.

3.3.4.1 - "Percy Rule" - Specific penalty in Design Event for not meeting the rule.

3.3.5.1 - Main Hoop Bracing - Clarification as to how the bracing loads must be transmitted back to the Main Hoop.

3.3.6.4 - IA Data Report - Test data will be required with the added requirement that the peak decel. cannot exceed 40g. Also penalties for late submission.

3.4.1. - Shoulder Harness Bar - Gussets or braces required for any cantilevered bar.

3.4.4 - Head Restraint - Clarification on location and position relative to the helmet.

3.4.6.1 - Steering Wheel - Clarification of "near oval" shape (no concavities in the profile).

3.5.3 - Fuel Tanks - "Bag" fuel tanks or fuel cell bladders must be in a rigid container. Rigid fuel tanks cannot carry a structural load.

3.5.3.9 - Fuel Tanks - Clarify the required rear impact protection

3.7.4 - Gas Cylinders - Clarify that gas cylinders are not allowed in the cockpit.

4.3 - Cost & Manufacturing Event - Significant changes to the Cost Report and other items. (See a separate announcement for more details).

5.7 - Endurance & Fuel Economy - Increase the points available for Fuel Economy to 100; decrease the points available for Endurance to 300. Cancel the 4 minute penalty but allow the FE score to go negative with a new formula.

6 Possible 2010 Changes
Restructure the space frame rules. This will not change the essential requirements of these rules but should make them easier to understand.
List the expectations for composite chassis and carbon fibre space frames.
For drivers under the Main Hoop, require 4 ins minimum clearance above helmet to u/side of Main Hoop or padding.
Limit the seat back angle to 30 degrees from the vertical. (Could be 2011).


Michael Royce
Chairman,
FSAE Rules Committee.
July 29th 2008


Sorry if the formating is all jacked. I tried to fix it to read at least somewhat easy.

7.1 And no more happyness

quote:

3.2.5 - Brakes - In side view, no brake components on the sprung part of car can project below the bottom of the frame or tub

In our design we have a "bumper" of sorts that protect anything under the nose of our car. Our nose is raised. the bumber extends vertically below the main section of the frame at the front bulkhead. My questions is what defines the bottom of frame? Our loset point on the frame are the bars under our butt. Yet, our brake system sits under the lower front suspension rails (which are raised, and protected).

-nabjab

nabjab, you should either wait until the official rules come out, which will most likely have a more thorough explanation, or submit a question to the rules committee (see rules for details), they are the only ones who will be able to answer your question.

I hope this means that the rule pertaining to the driver having to raise his knees to his chest while seated will no longer be included.

quote:

Originally posted by nabjab:

quote:

3.2.5 - Brakes - In side view, no brake components on the sprung part of car can project below the bottom of the frame or tub

In our design we have a "bumper" of sorts that protect anything under the nose of our car. Our nose is raised. the bumber extends vertically below the main section of the frame at the front bulkhead. My questions is what defines the bottom of frame? Our loset point on the frame are the bars under our butt. Yet, our brake system sits under the lower front suspension rails (which are raised, and protected).

-nabjab

Mr. Royce explained this change to us at the MIS event. You will not be allowed to have any brake components below any part of the frame. Even though your frame is lower in another spot, it still will not be allowed. You will have to send in a clarification about your "bumper"

do you have any information regarding 2009 fsae events.

2009 Event Schedule

Any pics of 09 compliant cars already made?.. yes i know that everyone is designing for 09 now but, some people like TUG (?) have their 09 machines already running

quote:

Originally posted by The AFX Master:
Any pics of 09 compliant cars already made?.. yes i know that everyone is designing for 09 now but, some people like TUG (?) have their 09 machines already running

TU Graz starts active development of their 09 car in October. I asked them in Hockenheim last weekend.

We have some pictures on our website of our 09 chassis next to our 07 car.