Does anyone have anymore information about the 2009 rules? Specifically the template rule for the cockpit. Is everyone's car going to be the same from the front rollhoop forward "we have dubbed it whale nose?" We know that it'll be August until the offical rules, but how do you design a car around rules that aren't out yet? The judges told us we had a huge car this last year (UofL) and we don't come anywhere near passing "whale nose." Can anyone elaborate on this?

http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/rules/rules.pdf

Page 104 onwards.

There appear to be a number of teams already building their cars to the 2009 cockpit templates. They make a lot of sense, as it stops teams putting steering racks above drivers shins, gives the driver more elbow room and generally makes it easier for taller/larger drivers to drive them.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris_S:
http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/rules/rules.pdf

Page 104 onwards.

There appear to be a number of teams already building their cars to the 2009 cockpit templates. They make a lot of sense, as it stops teams putting steering racks above drivers shins, gives the driver more elbow room and generally makes it easier for taller/larger drivers to drive them.

They also allow you to take a passenger, so that you can take sponsors for hot laps, and have an instructor ride with your driver for training. Quite handy really.

I've read that. I'm wondering if anyone has any confirmation on these rules. Your driver can't really be any "bigger" but they can defiantly have huge legs.

I'm wondering how many, if any teams have built or will build a 2008 car which will comply with the 2009 rules, especially teams competing in Australasia this year.

I'd love to get their feedback on how much bigger the cars will be and if they can take passengers.

During tech at MIS, I asked Michael Royce about the templates rule and he said that it was going to be put into effect. In fact, he was having someone make up a set of carbon templates.

Michael Royce made it clear at MIS the templates will be included in the new rules due out soon. There is at least one small change which is a 50mm wide slot half way down the centre of the foot box template to allow it to pass steering coloums easy during tech and also the cockpit template might get a 'front' and 'back'. The requirement for the knees lifting to past the steering wheel is most likley gone.

He also mentioned future changes (not for '09 I presume) to due with belt angles and seat back angles which will make formula car style low driver postions a thing of the past. No welded Ti for any required structure. Tamper proof stickers on wheels (and all wheels the same as eachother) at tech to prevent the use of accel and design event 'special' wheels and super thin tyres. Also some procedure changes to prevent teams with lots of wheels and tyres getting an avantage over those that don't. (there was some of this in place at MIS this year). There was also something to make it impossible to change your restrictor during the event.

UWA's '08 car does pass the new rules as they are in the '07 book and yes, it looks big, but not as bad as you might think. As for a passenger, well, you would have to be 'very close friends' but yes you probably really could get two smallish people in there and drive it! (don't see it doing anything good for you lap time though)

Pete.

Thanks for your responses guys. Our car is close the way it sits. Another member e-mail me this morning with a document saying that the template rule will be in place. True it's not the worst thing that could happen, but will make the cars big up front. Guess we'll see how it goes.

I'm not sure I like the tire rule. It's extremely unfair to be forced to damage your tires in the braking test and then run the rest of the competition on them.

I've personally seen the marshals make cars lock up 3 or 4 times because they wanted to make sure the car could do it repeatedly. With such a rule in place, the whims of marshals could seriously damage a team's chances.

Furthermore, what happens if a team gets a puncture? Can they switch to a completely new set, or are they forced to run with 3 worn tires and 1 brand new tire?

quote:

As for a passenger, well, you would have to be 'very close friends' but yes you probably really could get two smallish people in there and drive it!

I have some pictures I'd love to post with a pair of medium sized humans in a 2009 templates-compliant chassis, but I'm not sure whether we want to start any rumours about our team...we'll take some more with some smaller guys and hopefully they wont look quite so 'friendly'

quote:

Originally posted by flavorPacket:
I'm not sure I like the tire rule. It's extremely unfair to be forced to damage your tires in the braking test and then run the rest of the competition on them.

I've personally seen the marshals make cars lock up 3 or 4 times because they wanted to make sure the car could do it repeatedly. With such a rule in place, the whims of marshals could seriously damage a team's chances.

Furthermore, what happens if a team gets a puncture? Can they switch to a completely new set, or are they forced to run with 3 worn tires and 1 brand new tire?

I don't know, I think think thats kind of the point, some teams don't have enough tyres to deal with punctures/flat spots etc properly and are therefore at a disadvantage. Besides, no one said anything about limiting the number of tyres or anything like that. The way I interpreted what was said was simply that they would monitor what you were doing (by inspecting and marking everything) to make sure you didn't run special light wheels for weigh in or on the front in accel. Also tyre marking makes it easier to police compound choice now more specialist FSAE tyres are becoming available. You can still fit up some old rubbish for the brake test so as not to ruin your race rubber, as long as its the same size/compound on the same type of wheel you tech with.

The only issue I have with such a rule is the possibility of making it harder for a small team that may wish to spend their limited funds on tyres rather than wheels. If I were in this situation I would buy/make one set of the best wheels I could get, and use road car/cheap and heavy/last years/borrowed from another team, wheels for wets etc. Then I would spend the money saved on enough Goodyears to be competitive on the track and change them onto the good wheels as needed.

I must say I'm not a fan of new rules that pop up at events without any notice, but when its in the book you've had for 9 months or so, and is the same for all, then what ever it is just deal with it. There will always be different ways of managing whatever they throw at us, and some teams will turn that into an advantage. Call it process engineering and thats what we are supposed to do, find the best way of managing the comp for a competitive advantage.

I checked the SAE.org site and the only FAQ regarding the templates is from Feb. It still confirms the tempates are in and includes the 50mm slot or flap as well. It would be a shame if teams didn't meet the new rules as it would stop them competeting next year even if they won the World Cup at Aus and were able to find the funding to go. I'm sure RMIT would comply and probably the Gongs as well. I have also had some contact with one of the Adalaide teams about our shipping crate so they were looking at going international as well. UQ has been successfull O/S before too and may be planning to go again.

It also be bad if we were the only ones with a 'whale nose' car at the comp!

It just occured to me, the '08 spec Euro team cars (what they will bring to Aus if they come) won't be able to run at MIS next year and their '09 cars will generally come out after May. Did any of the Euro teams meet the new template rules with your '08 cars?

Pete

Pete, you make good points, as usual. But isn't part of the competition to teach people about finding funding? 4 extra tires are not 4 extra engines or dampers. If a team doesn't have enough funds for a spare tire in the case of a puncture, then they most likely have not planned correctly.

It seems that the organizers are penalizing teams that have been successful in finding funds in order to 'level the playing field'. I think this goes against the spirit of the competition.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Marsh:
He also mentioned future changes (not for '09 I presume) to due with belt angles and seat back angles which will make formula car style low driver postions a thing of the past.

I don't like this idea. Whats the problem with low positions? Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on making sure that seat belt attachment points are suitably fixed and that Roll Hoops are Mandrel Bent? Along with a better crash structure at the front?

I'd also like to see and this is entirely directed at the FSUK event - Marshall not parking big Pick ups in run off areas or gaps in the armco at a point just after a corner so that people don't lose their heads. As I remember KTH last year ended up underneath the damn thing. The corner was not well placed and the track design for that reason was terrible.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Fodor:

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Marsh:
He also mentioned future changes (not for '09 I presume) to due with belt angles and seat back angles which will make formula car style low driver postions a thing of the past.

I don't like this idea. Whats the problem with low positions? Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on making sure that seat belt attachment points are suitably fixed and that Roll Hoops are Mandrel Bent? Along with a better crash structure at the front?

I'd also like to see and this is entirely directed at the FSUK event - Marshall not parking big Pick ups in run off areas or gaps in the armco at a point just after a corner so that people don't lose their heads. As I remember KTH last year ended up underneath the damn thing. The corner was not well placed and the track design for that reason was terrible.

The problem is that teams are leaning the driver back so far that the belts can be a safety issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Marsh:
He also mentioned future changes (not for '09 I presume) to due with belt angles and seat back angles which will make formula car style low driver postions a thing of the past.

I'm not being funny but I don't suppose you could elaborate on that? As I'm wondering a bit what the problem is specifically?

Is it related to the submarining effect or a problem with the shoulder straps? IE where on the body is the problem thinking from a safety point of view.

I'm most likely being ignorant so i humbly apologise but I want details =P

I can understand the concern on mounting the belts, although the big formula guys have been in the lay down position for years.
An upright position would be easier, but I have seen many cars (in other series) that obviously don't even read the inclosed instruction sheet.
Those comments on course saftey concern me.

My interpretation of the tire/wheel procedures is pretty similar to Pete's. I think what they're mainly trying to curb are things like switching compounds between events(like switching from Goodyear D2691's to 2692's for endurance), etc.

As far as tire quantities go, unless the tires you're running have a tread compound with the tear-strength of play-dough it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to make it through competition on a single set. That said, I don't see a particular need to limit teams to a single set. Another set of tires is a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost of going to comp. Besides, I can think of at least one or two slower to middle of the pack teams that have convinced a tire company to throw a couple sets their way.

Of course, if they really wanted to level the playing field, there are a lot of other things they could do. An outright ban on wireless telemetry, interconnected dampers, yellow paint, and letting part time students(who may or may not be Australian) drive would go pretty far to keep things even.

we are making our car to suit 2009 rules or formula bus as we are calling it now.

see the attached photos showing the 2008 bulkhead on the 2007 bulkhead.


i wear size uk13 shoes



Why didnt they couple these templates with feet in front of the axle line? If we really want to go safe, thats one of the safest options...

at least out fat drivers dont complain, well i dont complain...

Michael pulled us up about seatbelt angle and back angle and it makes sense you need the waist strap running against your hip bones and not your stomach or crotch. if you do suffer an impact the waist strap will certainly do some damage to your old fella and internal organs if its too high or low.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Marsh:
It just occured to me, the '08 spec Euro team cars (what they will bring to Aus if they come) won't be able to run at MIS next year and their '09 cars will generally come out after May. Did any of the Euro teams meet the new template rules with your '08 cars?

Pete

That’s one of the first things I realized it might finally give the American teams a chance they wont have to be competing against the euro and au cars that are almost a year old by the time they get to Detroit.

Not so my friend, so far we know that UWA, RMIT, Monash, and Auckland are building bus cars and I'm sure more teams will come out of the woodwork.