Several Indian teams have expressed difficulty in sourcing a suitable engine for FS/FSAE.

The Enfield Company have just announced a new unit construction 500cc single that might suit their needs. This is an all new engine design, though with a retro style to suit the Enfield image. The engine has EFI as standard, so should be an easy adaptation for our use.

The power output is moderate, but that is because the engine is tuned 'safe' for some of the dodgy fuels in India, plus the somewhat 'agricultural' uses the engine is sometimes put to. Significant power increases should be a reasonably straightforward matter.

This is a link to the Enfield site for further information.
http://www.royalenfield.com/app/IN/news.asp?sID=17055

I hope this helps our Sub Continental friends

Cheers
Pat

Hey, thanks a lot, Pat!
We were actually contemplating getting an older version of the same engine, but decided to plug for a CBR engine instead.

But this will certainly help the Indian teams who aren't so fortunate as to get enough sponsorship for an f4i.

Orion Racing
Mumbai

If the Enfield motors in India are as quality as the ones over here in the US, I would sooner put a Bajaj motor in my car.

Fartcan,
A hugely unintelligent comment from someone who hides behind a hugely unintelligant handle.

I know the reputation the Indian engines have. I also know that the quality of stuff from India gets better by the day, and this is an all new fuel injected 500cc engine.

I also know the almost impossibility the Indian teams have to get a suitable engine. When this news came available, I thought it a good idea to let the Indian teams know! So if you haven't anything constructive to contribute, go fart in your can!
Pat

If they end up anything like an Enfield rifle then the engine will never break. God what a fabulous firearm.

PatClarke,

An eloquent and professional putting-down with no malice or name-calling. Good work. You will go far with that attitude.

Thanks Pat,
Thats good news for a country where Formula fever is rising and it would certainly inspire more universities/colleges to participate in the competition...

cheers pat...

your attachment to sub continent is commendable and we experienced your immense help in Australia events in 05 and 06 and Germany 07 ...i dont know about others in my country, but we believe to follow your suggestions very very seriously....

our team bought f4i last year, and have decided to stick to salvage it for next year also....but surely we have put people to start working on new enfield engine...

Went to the Enfield Factory and spoke to R&D GM. Enfield has to be your last resort option.
26Bhp at 5300 Rpm and 40Nm at 3500 Rpm. Pushrod engine which means you are at danger if you cross 6-7K. Add to it the engine is stressed and weighs some 80Kgs!!

even i had the doubt on power output....because every engine in sub continent is compromised on power to give more mileage....but pat mentioned something about increasing power ...lets see what he has to say on increasing power....

yeah.. increasing power is possible. Pat told us that that RPM limit is only artificial because they want more life for the engine and we can adjust the ECU settings. Also compression ratio may be adjusted a bit but the problem is the weight. In fact our prof was saying instead use the pulsar 220!

quote:

Originally posted by shampoo:
In fact our prof was saying instead use the pulsar 220!

oooh!....pulsar 220!...that engine gives like what some 20 odd bhp....i really dont have idea how much can you power can you churn out from that engine....and probably your whole drive train will have to go under serious make over ....

hello everyone...
can i know from where we can get the master switches in INDIA which suit the specification of FSAE ?(i saw some pics in rules book)

Fart Can, & all other non-Indian FS team members,

(Now, Fart Can, I don't really mean to single you out here, but let's face it mate, you opened your mouth, and then stuck your foot in it, clear up to your ankle bone! This forum is for constructive comments! )

What you have to realize is that the Indian teams are hugely resource challenged. In order to get a F4i engine, they either have to get it on the black market, for a large sum of cash (in excess of $12,000USD if I am remebering correctly, for a VERY used piece ), or they pay even more for a 'legit' used engine.

The advantage to the black market engine, is its 'low' price, the problem with the black market engine is getting it back into the country after competition.

The next time you are at a FS competition, why don't you try and make a point of going over and introducing yourself to any of the Indian teams. They are all very friendly, and have great Can-Do attitudes. Their biggest problem is resources! They have very few parts to work with, very few tools and limited facilities.

I would be willing to bet that most American teams, if faced with the same problems the Indian teams face daily, would give up way before getting the car anywhere near completed. The luxury advantages we have are sometimes taken for granted. Take a little time to poke your head up out of your own hole and look at what others around you have to deal with. It can be a very hunbling experience.

I for one am very pleased to see the number of Indian teams participating in FS type events. They are a very resourseful bunch, & they keep getting better all the time.

I dont think Enfield is a suitable option...
the power output is nowhere near the honda or yamaha engines.. yes it can give you a car that completes the race and easy availability but you cant win a race with it. I dare any team to do it... and Indian team might not have won yet but that dont mean we dont aim for a win.

Thanks for the support Mr. Fox but seriously, $12,000?? where did you get that figure?
I can get you at least 4 if not 5 engines for that... and all honda/yamahas...

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Fox:

What you have to realize is that the Indian teams are hugely resource challenged. In order to get a F4i engine, they either have to get it on the black market, for a large sum of cash (in excess of $12,000USD if I am remebering correctly, for a VERY used piece ), or they pay even more for a 'legit' used engine.

The advantage to the black market engine, is its 'low' price, the problem with the black market engine is getting it back into the country after competition.

This is the context I'm convinced Claude Rouelle was using when he is alleged to have said "even the indians do better" when criticising a UK team.

Outside the top positions, which pretty much judge themselves most of the time, you have to judge cars relative to the resources the team has available in their native country and offer encouragement from that position.

Everyone takes the competition very seriously when their directly involved in a car and can see this as "favouritism" but having the opportunity to judge a variety of teams over the past few years I've truly appreciated the educational aspect of the competition, and it is education rather than real racing despite what it feels like at the time.

Ben

quote:

Originally posted by Silverback:
I dont think Enfield is a suitable option...
the power output is nowhere near the honda or yamaha engines.. yes it can give you a car that completes the race and easy availability but you cant win a race with it. I dare any team to do it... and Indian team might not have won yet but that dont mean we dont aim for a win.

While I fully understand the concerns about power output there's a lot to be said for a motor that's easy to source, reliable, and well supported locally. Will a perfectly tuned Enfield beat a moderate 600cc sportbike motor? probably not, but it'll absolutely destroy an F4i with a mangled crankshaft, bent valves, or that's otherwise in dubious condition.

You'd also be surprised at how little power you need in order to be competitive if you have a car with well-sorted handling.

I agree with what PSUAlum06 said. You don't need tons of power to be competitive.

UB went to Detroit with a Briggs V-Twin that is putting out (by our best guess, our dyno is broken and we still don't have a pull) about 30HP. I won't even try to guess at torque. We ended up placing 14th in the Endurance/Fuel Economy and 18th Overall.

Now I'm not saying that the car couldn't have used more straight line power (that was one of the drivers' complaints), but it just goes to show that you don't need to be putting out 75+HP to do well in the competition. Simply finishing the endurance race in the time requirement will help you place pretty high in the competition, so a bullet-proof engine that is slightly underpowered is certainly not a bad idea.

You missed the point... I am sure UB Racing voluntarily didnt go in with a 30HP engine... Its commendable finishing 14th under the circumstances but still..

I cant contemplate the idea of starting a project with a presumption that you cant win... thats simply not how you do things.

For Indian Teams... the 400cc(Honda, cant remember the model) class popular in Hongkong makes a better choice, with a power output of 50BHP.. it will be hell lot lighter... and we were getting it for less than US$1500.. so its a bargain.. even an enfield costs more than that.. if you give even a little time you can find that engine in any of the bigger cities in India.. contact me if you want it in India.. I can probably hook you up with the guy who deals in it....

Aah, yes, the old "must have more horsepower" argument.

The team I've had history with has had plenty of decent results over the years with around 50hp on tap (yes, the team now has access to lots of carbon fibre, but it wasn't always that way). Yep, you might lose some points in straight line speed, but there are other ways you make it up (especially by directing time resources to the critical stuff that can make or break your weekend).

I have a bit of a rule-of-thumb spreadsheet I've slapped together over the years, that gives rough competition points variations for different design concepts (mainly based on weight, power, tyre load sensitivity and fuel economy). I punched in values for the UWA car (around 265kg including driver, around 65kW) as representative of a top level car. Then I punched in values for what I would think would be a well designed Enfield car - around 310kg ( 20kgs extra for the engine, say 25kg extra for a good spaceframe rolling chassis) and say around 35kW for the engine with a bit of tuning and development (reasonable?). The result - the points difference over the whole comp would be somewhere in the vicinity of 70 points. Now maybe my spreadsheet has a few errors and approximations, but even so it would be a big stretch for me to believe that an Enfield car built to the same professionalism and quality as the UWA car would be any more than 100 points behind.

Now, I hear you all screaming, 100 points, we won't give that up, we are in this to win, blah blah blah. But think about it. Are you regularly finishing within 100 points of a UWA, or a Graz, or a Cornell? If you were, you would be a top 5 contender, or maybe on a bad day only a top 10 contender if the comp was pretty tight. Most teams are not finishing at that level, so I'd say it is something a lot more important than a CBR that is holding them back.

The trouble is that most teams won't honestly assess what their design problem truly is. If you are not within 100 points of the leaders then I would say it has a lot more to do with team management, or the actual execution of the vehicle, than anything to do with the components you selected.

Think long term. Free up some project time by settling for an engine in your own backyard, rather than sweating over importing stuff. Once you are regularly scoring over 700 points, then you can start worrying about getting a "better" engine. In the meantime, spend less money and spend more time learning the basics. That is a much better way of getting to the winners circle.

My final point, think of which is going to work better for your sponsorship worth in your own country:
Magazine article 1: "*** University has scored a top 5 finish amongst the best universities in the world in the prestigious Formula SAE competitions. What's more, they have done so against much better financed teams using our own homegrown Enfield engines......"
Magazine article 2: "*** University has recently returned home after competing in the prestigious Formula SAE competition. The team put in a valiant effort, but were thwarted by last minute reliability issues....."

Cheers all